Sanding raised panels

[Stan Krupowies]

What method do you all use for sanding the end grain on raised panels? Is there an easy way to do it and still get good results? I'm going to be making some out of walnut and I'm looking for a good way to sand them.

Stan

[Mel Fulks]

If it's less than 100 cabinet size panels they can be run so slick that no sanding is needed ,without stopping to resharpen, If you use high quality steel or Tangtung cutters. The larger profile cuts can still need a little sanding on the end grain. Don't do any sanding on the uncut center until after they have been raised.Some here are reporting slick surfaces cut with insert tooling.

[David Kumm]

Square 4x4" palm sander with 1/4 sheets. Dave

[George Bokros]

I just use sandpaper on an appropriate size block of wood and sand cross grain. They come out fine.

George

[Mel Fulks]

Cutting down time spent on sanding is done by making it a priority in initial planning. If you don't use a carbide 3 wing cutter or router bit on real wood you make sanding a lot faster. I use carbide wing cutters only for mdf.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

If it's less than 100 cabinet size panels they can be run so slick that no sanding is needed ,without stopping to resharpen, If you use high quality steel or Tangtung cutters. The larger profile cuts can still need a little sanding on the end grain. Don't do any sanding on the uncut center until after they have been raised.Some here are reporting slick surfaces cut with insert tooling.

+1, you really should expect your tooling to provide a clean surface, and with a careful setup, good stuff will.

[Stan Krupowies]

If you don't use a carbide 3 wing cutter or router bit on real wood you make sanding a lot faster. I use carbide wing cutters only for mdf.

So you're saying that for raising my panels I should use HSS router bits? Would making a very light last pass make a difference with carbide?

[Mel Fulks]

Not sure you can get steel router panel raisers,without special order. We don't know whether you are doing small job or big. If this is a non commercial household job ,many successful projects have been done with carbide. You might consider using steel scrapers as well as sandpaper. It's just more work as your surface won't be cut as slick.

[Dave Zellers]

Has anyone ever used a mop sander for this situation? Just wondering if that would work.

[Jeff Duncan]

If it's less than 100 cabinet size panels they can be run so slick that no sanding is needed ,without stopping to resharpen, If you use high quality steel or Tangtung cutters. The larger profile cuts can still need a little sanding on the end grain. Don't do any sanding on the uncut center until after they have been raised.Some here are reporting slick surfaces cut with insert tooling.

While this statement is almost true….it does make some assumptions:o Generally speaking sharp tooling on a heavy industrial shaper can leave you a cut so clean very little sanding is needed. The same type of tooling on a smaller light duty shaper will yield somewhat lesser quality. On a router table….well there's way too many variables there to say with any confidence. Point being is we don't yet know what kind of equipment the OP is running and that does make all the difference;)

Second thing to consider is finish sanding is always done on top quality stain grade projects. This way any stains and finishes used will adhere well and appear even. Since it's walnut being used I'm assuming it'll be finished and not painted, and as such you should sand the profile with the same grit used on the panel face. As far as easy, well the easy way is to make flat panels. If you want beautiful stain grade raised panels you have to put in the effort required. I don't do a lot of them, but when I do it's basically a sanding block or built up block if a non-flat profile:)

good luck,
JeffD

[Stan Krupowies]

Point being is we don't yet know what kind of equipment the OP is running and that does make all the difference;)

Second thing to consider is finish sanding is always done on top quality stain grade projects.


I guess I should have stated that I'm doing the raised panels in black walnut on a router table. My router is a Porter Cable 7518 3 1/4 HP and I have a Freud 2 wing carbide bit. These panels are not going to be painted - not sure yet what finish I'm using but probably a varnish or shellac / wax.

[Mel Fulks]

Just want to add ,I have never managed a shop and I have been mainly employed making custom millwork ,so the decision as to sanding is from management with this caveat,I DONT SAND ANYTHING SOMEONE ELSE MADE! I have only worked on high quality cabinets that management felt could not be subbed. Using both corg steel and the old slotted shaper collars I have raised panels with one inch raise without any sanding. Selling the small raise makes the job easier and helps the customer ,in that their smaller doors don't look so odd,and with the common use of dark stains a steep raise shows up better. The larger raises have usually required no more than 180 grit quickly hand sanded. Works well with maple, cherry ,and real mahogany. This info might be unusual but is IMO nothing requiring any special skill,when it works it saves time .Where it does not work ,you still have a smoother surface than you would have gotten with carbide.

[Mark Bolton]

Im no expert by any means but I have simply never read anything anywhere that remotely says even a production door shop would opt to not sand panel profiles? It has always been my position, and been endlessly reaffirmed by shops dozens and dozens of times larger than me, that every single part will get "some" sanding, Period. And that would especially pertain to raising panels and end grain in particular. I dont care what machine or what tooling, the edge is degrading at 1' of production. That means the first foot run across the cutter is not going to be the same as the 800th foot or the 1800th foot. Sandpaper is the equalizer.

Im with David, my guy uses a 1/4 sheet sander (because its square and our panel profile works well with it). I personally sand with a 5" RO but even the slightest bobble will knock of a sharp edge so I like them to stay with the 1/4 sheet.

It would be interesting to hear JR's input on this.

I would simply never, and I mean never, let a door get put together without sanding the profile. Maybe I shouldnt be making doors :D

[Mel Fulks]

What gets printed is often for amateurs or at the behest of advertisers. For example,so much is written about jigs,often the things being described would be of NO USE to a full time tradesman. But they allow someone to make something they would otherwise not be able to do. MOST of the knife steel sold today (as I have said many times before) is NOT HSS even though it is represented as such. No matter how many times the lie is repeated it will not become the truth. The results I described are only possible with REAL HSS like m2 ,or t1. And the catalogs saying "this steel has the same hardness as m2 but costs less" are ADVERTISING .The hardness is the same ,but the wear and heat resistance is way below HSS. I don't know of ANY jointers or planers that are sold new with real HSS and most commercial shops around here use carbide for panels,even though Tangtung works better for wood. If they won't buy apropriate tooling why should anyone listen to what they say about sanding? There is of course machinery made for sanding panel edges and they might be the best solution for those running high production shops,I don't know. I do know I have seen low wage help sanding for several days on carbide raised doors for one job.

[Mark Bolton]

What gets printed is often for amateurs or at the behest of advertisers. For example,so much is written about jigs,often the things being described would be of NO USE to a full time tradesman. But they allow someone to make something they would otherwise not be able to do. MOST of the knife steel sold today (as I have said many times before) is NOT HSS even though it is represented as such. No matter how many times the lie is repeated it will not become the truth. The results I described are only possible with REAL HSS like m2 ,or t1. And the catalogs saying "this steel has the same hardness as m2 but costs less" are ADVERTISING .The hardness is the same ,but the wear and heat resistance is way below HSS. I don't know of ANY jointers or planers that are sold new with real HSS and most commercial shops around here use carbide for panels,even though Tangtung works better for wood. If they won't buy apropriate tooling why should anyone listen to what they say about sanding? There is of course machinery made for sanding panel edges and they might be the best solution for those running high production shops,I don't know. I do know I have seen low wage help sanding for several days on carbide raised doors for one job.


Mel,
So you are saying that there are simple options out there to save companies thousands and thousands of dollars in profit and they are simply choosing to ignore this out of stubbornness or ignorance? I find that hard to believe.

On my best day, with brand knew insert tooling in my cutters, I simply couldnt feed at a slow enough feed rate to get a panel raised that, in low raking light, wouldnt show some tooling marks from the machining process. I am running a million miles away from the best machinery in the world however one would think for the first 5' of a brand new set of inserts you could think about not sanding. Its simply not true. Whether I use tool steel or carbide, you still have to sand. Just my opinion.

Beyond that, as Jeff said, the OP is talking about walnut, which is going to be a natural finish (unless you usually paint walnut). This means that even IF your miraculous tooling provides a surface that requires zero sanding, you still have to normalize the panel to the adjacent parts for staining, and or, finishing. It would be like putting a hand scraped part next to a routed sticking profile. One will finish completely different than the other.

[Mel Fulks]

Any one using low grade steel is wasting money ,I have worked for a couple of companies that always left about a sixteenth over what they needed when planing and then ran stuff through wide belt sander . I showed them that was a mistake by giving them my word that good steel would make that unnecessary and telling them that if they didn't agree the new knives were MUCH better I WOULD PAY FOR THEM. Planers and jointers are all going insert ,that's ok with me,but be assured that those of us who have worked for decades didn't spend all our time dealing with tear out.

[Pat Barry]

The few raised panels that I have done definitely needed sanding of the profile. I used a router table and standard bits from Rockler. I was told, and now practice, the method of sanding the end grain to one higher grit number than the flat panels and edge grain. Of course, I am a hobbyist, not a production shop.

[Mark Bolton]

Any one using low grade steel is wasting money ,I have worked for a couple of companies that always left about a sixteenth over what they needed when planing and then ran stuff through wide belt sander . I showed them that was a mistake by giving them my word that good steel would make that unnecessary and telling them that if they didn't agree the new knives were MUCH better I WOULD PAY FOR THEM. Planers and jointers are all going insert ,that's ok with me,but be assured that those of us who have worked for decades didn't spend all our time dealing with tear out.

Sounds to me like your missing out on some major profits! ;)

[ed vitanovec]

I would sneak up on the final pass and skim the surface, it left just light hand sanding with 180 then 220 for my liking.

[J.R. Rutter]

It is difficult to compare a router raised panel to a shaper raised panel. Add in different knife materials, different tool bodies, and different machines, and it becomes almost impossible to make a general recommendation. I agree with Mel that sharp HSS knives are the top of the heap for cut quality. The good news is that for low volume production, this type of shaper tooling is available for no or minimal premium and you can get any profile you can draw. And it is pretty simple to keep the knives face honed to maintain that nice edge. But this sort of tooling is not available for router bits.

The finish that we get off of the shaper with inserts tooling (carbide or tantung alloy) is very good, so it just needs to be touched lightly for consistency batch-to-batch. I compared tantung and carbide and found carbide to be so close that for the mix of woods that we work with, I have standardized on the carbide (more readily available, faster turnaround time, cheaper). As far as sanding panel profiles goes, I have settled on using a ROS with a soft pad and using 220 grit 3M Clean sanding discs because they conform well. It takes maybe 1-2 minutes per panel, depending on size. There is some finesse needed, but entry level people can get up to speed in 10 minutes with someone monitoring them and giving feedback. We stress a technique that leaves the corners of the profiles nice and sharp, and gives the entire profile a uniform matte appearance. I choose to err on the side of slightly polishing the grain rather than oversanding or leaving scratches. I have looked into other ways to sand, including power feeding past wheels, and have not found another method that works as well. A year or two ago, I saw a video from Cal-Door that showed their team doing it the exact same way, so I am content that it works.

For a router, I would focus on doing a final pass removing about 1/16" at a very uniform rate of feed to avoid burning. A router bit will dull much faster than a shaper cutter, so if you can remove the bulk of the waste with the table saw, it may well pay off in finish cut quality. But I don't use a router for panels in my work, so YMMV. With a clear finish, cross-grain scratches are not a big detriment like they are with, say, a stained maple panel. So for a walnut job, hand sanding should not be an issue at all. For one-offs like this, I tend to use a sanding disc with some life left in it folded up and/or stuck to a sanding sponge and just be careful not to round the crisp edges of the corners unless you want that look.

[Mel Fulks]

J.R.,I have not used any insert tooling for panels . Most interesting and useful to read that in that format Tangtung and carbide are close.

[J.R. Rutter]

J.R.,I have not used any insert tooling for panels . Most interesting and useful to read that in that format Tangtung and carbide are close.

With brazed tools, the alloy tips are clearly better. The insert carbide is finer grained and has a nice polished face.

[Ken Massingale]

Has anyone ever used a mop sander for this situation? Just wondering if that would work.

That's what I use, works great.

[Dave Zellers]

That's what I use, works great.
Cool- thanks. I just started using one and it seems like it would be great for this.

[glenn bradley]

This is a bit of an open question and will gain you varied responses as you have seen. What is an acceptable surface for one application is not acceptable for another. I have seen cove surfaces right off the shaper that would be totally acceptable in a high end kitchen after the usual finishing schedule. This same surface would not pass muster on a custom built dresser, hall table or buffet for the dining room. Filling in irregularities with a thick film finish is a good method for some situations. Penetrating oil finishes or a French Polish that offer almost no filling properties at all will show every anomaly, scratch dent or mill mark. For these situations I use scrapers and soft conforming or custom fit rigid sanding blocks and work through the grits to the level I am after; usually 400 grit for less obvious surfaces and 600 grit for 'in your face' end grain. The surface that 'works' depends on what you are doing and for whom (including yourself). Most important, you should be happy with it. Beyond that it becomes academic. ;)