Veritas #4 PM-V11 Arrived iin Mail

[Rich Riddle]

A package from Lee Valley arrived in the mail today. Opened it to find the Veritas #4 PM-V11 ordered at the Woodworking Show in Indianapolis. If the wife asked, you will all get the blame for encouraging the purchase; yes you did. Here are a few pictures of it.

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Hope it works as well as you folks indicated it does. There is a Veritas #4 used on eBay with an "A2" blade that costs nearly as much as one new and sold for $192.20. Guess the Veritas planes hold their value.

[paul cottingham]

Welcome to the slippery slope. Feel free to blame us.

[John Stankus]

A package from Lee Valley arrived in the mail today. Opened it to find the Veritas #4 PM-V11 ordered at the Woodworking Show in Indianapolis. If the wife asked, you will all get the blame for encouraging the purchase; yes you did. Here are a few pictures of it.
.

Here's a trick that my Dad used to use bringing stuff back from Hamfests (Amateur Radio swap meets). "Look what I won at the hamfest" Use sparingly....


Funny thing is he really did win the grand prize one year.

John

[David Weaver]

Someone else here just ran into one of those veritas bench planes (well, at their front door).

Not enough is said about them on the forum for the rest of us to have a good idea of what they are like. Be sure to give us your opinion once you use it some.

[Rich Riddle]

Welcome to the slippery slope. Feel free to blame us.

What slippery slope do you mean?

[David Weaver]

What slippery slope do you mean?

It's slick enough that you can't even tell you're on it.

[John P Lewis]

Not enough is said about them on the forum for the rest of us to have a good idea of what they are like. Be sure to give us your opinion once you use it some.

David-

I've had one with the A2 blade for a year and have to say I quit using my old Stanley smoothers soon after. It isn't the prettiest design but it works great and is easy to adjust. The looks are kind of growing on me and after adjusting the tote with sandpaper, it's my go-to smoother.

I've been thinking about the PM blade for it, but I use it mostly on spruce and mahogany, so the A2 works well for my purposes. I got it on eBay for a bit over half of new price ($199) because the listing said "body rust" and had bad pictures. It turned out to have a small spot of surface rust that wiped off with some steel wool. Now that I've used it a while, if lost or stolen I would pay full price for a replacement. I like it more than my LN 4 1/2 and I like that plane a lot.

I don't think I've ever read about these on the forum before. It's kind of an odd looking design with the tote attachment - most folks buy older Stanleys or the LN smoothers. LN kind of has the market on bevel down smoothers. That seems unusual since the LV and LN smoothers are the same quality and the LN is $150 more. I guess woodworkers are just used to the older designs.

The only issues Vs. a LN plane might be the older Stanley-style chipbreaker and lack of options for high angle frogs. The chipbreaker is well machined and works fine. I've never really thought the high angle frogs were needed. Neither of these are really issues for me.

Rich-

Please do let us know your opinions of your plane after you get used to it. Hopefully you enjoy it like I do.

[David Weaver]

The only issues Vs. a LN plane might be the older Stanley-style chipbreaker and lack of options for high angle frogs.

In both cases, the stanley style elements are superior unless the plane is to be a specialty plane. I haven't yet found a practical reason why the LN cap iron is an improvement over the stanley, but LN probably didn't intend for it to actually be used like a cap iron is supposed to because, as we've read (and I've found out with my own planes), the cap irons are not properly drilled in a large number of the planes, and they don't reach near the point of cut, or in some cases just barely do as the adjustment is running out (as is the case with a 7 of mine).

At any rate, I hear the mouth is a little farther back, too (did I say that already?), but to me that isn't a problem - i like the continental planes quite a bit.

I only ask questions about the plane out of curiosity, though, I'm likely to go backwards (in age) from the bailey design if anything, and not forward.

[Ron Kellison]

The Veritas #4 was the 2nd LV plane I bought several years ago, after the Low Angle Block. It replaced a venerable, well-fettled Stanley #4 which I quickly sold because there was such a noticeable difference in performance. It is my basic wood removal plane before I break out the smoothers. It definitely holds its value and it's worth the price!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I imagine these are delightful planes, and some of the features seem nice, like the blade set screws and the Norris adjuster. The adjustable mouth isn't a huge sell for me and the woods I work, but if you want that feature, it's nicely implemented compared to a normal frog adjustment, with the continual support to the sole of the casting. Not sure why that approach as opposed to a sliding mouth plate, however.

However, they just don't seem as aesthetically pleasing as the later Veritas planes to me, though. The lever cap in particular, just seems kind of ugly to me. I'm fine with the black/brass combo, although it's not my favorite, but it's sort of shapeless and lozenge-y and just not very graceful. Maybe I'm just so used to the shape of the Stanley and infill plane styles of lever caps, but some curves in there, or some more defined chamfers/round-overs on the edges of it would help tremendously.

I know Veritas has their own unique style, I just feel like these earlier offerings of theirs, the style hadn't quite come into it's own. And this is all my own personal preference.

The one thing that I find amusing is that even though their photography is incredibly well done, I find a lot of Veritas products look more appealing to me in person. Part of it may just be the Bubinga looking a little washed out in photos, but there's something else as well, that I can't put my finger on. Looking at the number 4 in the photos on the website, it looks more appealing to me in the video linked on that page where Vic is comparing it to a BU plane than those photos.

All that said, I bet this is a great piece of kit and is apt to work quite well - I hope I don't sound disparaging.

As others have said, these just don't seem to get as much verbiage about them as their BU counterparts - I wonder what the numbers look like for amount moved between the two types over at LVs end? If I was shopping for a new jointer, I'd really love a version of this plane in a jointer length, (I know they have a number 6, but I like 7s, or even 8s) particularly if the price-difference between this and LN was the same.

[Chris Griggs]

Congrats on your new plane Rich. Nice tools are addicting.



Someone else here just ran into one of those veritas bench planes (well, at their front door).

Not enough is said about them on the forum for the rest of us to have a good idea of what they are like. Be sure to give us your opinion once you use it some.

I'm the someone else Dave is referring to BTW. I just more or less stole an LV No. 6 off Ebay this week. Most of you know that I have a number of LV planes but this is the first time I had or even seen an LV BD plane in person. I have had for several years a Woodriver 6 that I have always adored, but the longer I work with planes the less I like the weight of the Bedrock recreations (LN, Cliftons, Woodrivers) particularly in the larger planes....this is not a comment on the quality of any of these brands (relative to eachother or relative to LV), but I group them together since they all more or less have the same design, weight, and proportion. Anyway, because I wanted something lighter in a 6, I had been keeping my eye out for either am LV 6 or a good Miller falls 18. Well, I happened to win an auction for a used LV 6 for a song this week so now I have one in my shop. I will be using it side by side with my WR 6 and after some use will decide which to keep (probably not hard to predict which). The other will go to the classifieds.

I haven't used the LV yet so I can't say much, but just holding it side by side with the 8lb WR 6 I can say that it feels significantly lighter (in a good way) and better balanced. I'll also say that I think it for the most part its a pretty brilliant design that I never appreciated on paper or in photos. The full length frog in particular I think is a brilliant and under appreciated desgin feature and I'm also very pleased that they kept the original style of cap iron. Its heavier duty than a bailey cap iron but the same shape. I'm sorta agnostic about the Norris adjuster compared to the Baily, and am very happy using either type. The one part of the LV design I outright don't like is the knob tightening lever cap. A true lever cap is just quicker and nicer to use, and the screw lever cap is the one part of the design that really feels like it was a cost cut and under-designed (especially in the context of the rest of the design being so well thought out). Not that I mind keeping prices down, or that the type of lever cap is really a big deal, but I think a true lever cap is preferable and making on a nice new plane.

Anyway, all that is too say that so far I'm pretty psyched about the LV BD design, much more so than I would have anticipated. I'll post some comments about how the plane feels in actual use which is really what counts. I'm won't go into any discussion about plane "quality" in terms of them successfully doing what they are supposed to, because as far as I'm concerned they will all (including vintage) give you the same end result. But once I've used it some I will make some comments on how the differences in the LV design vs the Bedrock reproductions translate to differences in use.

[Jim Koepke]

[snip]

I haven't used the LV yet so I can't say much, but just holding it side by side with the 8lb WR 6 I can say that it feels significantly lighter (in a good way) and better balanced. I'll also say that I think it for the most part its a pretty brilliant design that I never appreciated on paper or in photos. The full length frog in particular I think is a brilliant and under appreciated desgin feature and I'm also very pleased that they kept the original style of cap iron. Its heavier duty than a bailey cap iron but the same shape. I'm sorta agnostic about the Norris adjuster compared to the Baily, and am very happy using either type. The one part of the LV design I outright don't like is the knob tightening lever cap. A true lever cap is just quicker and nicer to use, and the screw lever cap is the one part of the design that really feels like it was a cost cut and under-designed (especially in the context of the rest of the design being so well thought out). Not that I mind keeping prices down, or that the type of lever cap is really a big deal, but I think a true lever cap is preferable and making on a nice new plane.

[snip]

Chris,

I am not sure if I have ever seen images of the inner workings of a Veritas BD plane. Maybe you can post some pictures of the plane taken apart.

I think with the Norris style adjuster it may be advisable to loosen the lever cap before making changes. (I have not idea) If this is the case having a knob tightening lever cap might be a little easier for holding settings. My LN #62 has a threaded lever cap arrangement that only needs about 1/4 turn to loosen for adjusting.

Of course the modern planes have better machining and some have added features but my needs seem to be well met by my old Stanley/Bailey fleet of bench planes.

jtk

[paul cottingham]

I have a LV #4, and although I took a detour to BU planes, the more I use the BD #4, the more I like it. David Weaver really helped me when he pointed to that Japanese chip breaker video, it was like my eyes opened for the first time. Very little chip out, and beautiful surfaces.
In many ways, my #4 is now my go to smoother.
YMMV, of course, I am best classified as a hack!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Assuming Davids concerns about loosening the lever cap aren't necessarily needed, the one thing that occurs to me, if you don't like the screw lever cap, if the blade width is "normal" for the plane in question, could you swap in a lever-style bailey lever cap?

[Jeff Bartley]

My question goes out to those with LV bevel down planes in hand: how close can you set the chip breaker and how does it compare to the chip breaker on a stanley?

[Chris Griggs]

Josh and Jim. No you don't need to loosen the screw cap to adjust the blade with the norris adjuster...and the Norris adjuster is excellent. The screw cap vs lever cap preference is at the end of the day pretty minimal. I don't prefer a lever cap enough over the Veritas screw cap to bother putting a Stanley lever cap on there. Its more that given the choice I would rather have a lever cap, it's just a little quicker and subjectively feels a little more convenient to snap a lever cap as opposed to unscrewing something. Its always hard to comment on LN and LV tools since we are commenting on some of the finest tools ever made...so when I say something like "I like a lever cap better" its not that there is any problem with the screw cap (after all a wooden wedge holds a blade in place just fine) it more along the lines of given the choice when buying a new expensive tool what would be ideal. By the same token, when I say something like "I like the LV frog better than the bedrock design" it doesn't mean that I have any issue with the bedrock reproduction (LN, clifton, WR) or bedrock design...its genius..it just means that I think perhaps the full length LV frog may actually somehow managed to improve on that genius..even if its only to make things more user friendly in small way.

Jim, I'm working student recruitment events all weekend. I'll try to snap some pics of the guts tomorrow after work, but I have Monday off so if not tomorrow Monday. What I like about the LV guts/frog is that no matter how open or tight you have the mouth the blade is supported all the way to the bottom of the sole, and the blade adjustment and projection doesn't change. It j ust seems very solid. I'm a set it and forget it kinda guy when it comes to frogs but this design also makes adjustment easier if you tend to do that.

Jeff, I'll check the cap iron tomorrow or Monday. In a stanley one should be able to adjust the cap iron beyond the edge of the blade...I presume the same is true of the Veritas but I will confirm it.