Thoughts on a easy less expensive way for a Web Site? [Archive]

Gary Hair

02-21-2014, 8:33 PM

You can have a website hosted on GoDaddy for about $6.00 a month, a little more if you have multiple domains, and that includes email, databases, and a lot more. I have about a dozen sites hosted there and have had almost zero problems in over 10 years. I'll disagree with Dan about the idea of spending money for website design - I think that's what he's alluding to anyway. I had my site updated from a design I did when I started my business and the difference in traffic is unbelievable! A professional looking site can make any business look good where a "home made" looking site will deter a lot of business. I get compliments quite often on my site and have been told that the main reason I was called was because my site looked "legit" vs some of the crap that others put together. I was lucky in that the designer needed some laser work done and we traded services, but even if I had to pay him it would have been money well spent - I think he said it would have been about $350/$400 (amazingly enough that's exactly what his lasering ran...)
My advise is to find a designer and have it done right. If you want to contact my guy send me a PM and I'll gladly send you his info.

Bill Stearns

02-21-2014, 9:13 PM

Mike -
I recently asked the forum 'bout "ways I might increase my sales?) - having a "web site" ranked really high 'n advice. (I do have one.) I encourage anyone looking for more business to develop a web site. Suggest you stay 'way from those sites which allow you to easily create a "free" web site - using their templates - but, where your site is "connected" to theirs. (they pay for this "free site building offer" thru annoying advertising "pop-ups" which will significantly detract from your site. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I used 'couple different "web designers" for 'couple years - at 'bout $45 an hour - learned 'lot 'bout web sites - but I was NOT bringing in sales! I finally stumbled 'cross the fact that some host providers offer a "free" site-building program call RV Site builder. ('least the provider I chose does.) After 'few on-line tutorials, I was off 'n running with an attractive internet presence! Dan is correct 'bout cost - I pay $9.98 a month for my hosting service - AND, you'll need to register your site domain name. The registering place, in my case, is called DomainPeople.- runs me 'bout $25 year for the domain, so others can't use the same name.
These charges are more than paid for by the sales my site delivers! - and, as I'm in a fairly small town, my site expands my reach! (hope this info helps.)

Bill

Michael Gonzales

02-21-2014, 9:16 PM

Dan and Gary thank you for the info. I am interested in a professional looking web site that is easy to use. I have a growing number of people that are interested in awards and presents that need to see what is available to them that I can provide. Any info is helpful.
thx again.
Mike g

Jonathan Bowen

02-21-2014, 9:32 PM

I use squarespace for both my sites. Corseceng.com and QRlocket.com Super easy to use. Great support. Like so great they climb 17 flights of stares for 3 days to fuel the generator after Hurricane Sandy or comp your entire account for LIFE because of a miscommunication and a small issue with my account. Super easy to make and maintain a website. Cheap as well. $30 a month for full commerce support and you get a 20% discount for paying yearly. Unless your looking to do a lot of backend stuff then you can't go wrong with it. I also have hosting through another company but that is just for database stuff so I can strip the data from paypal and use it for submitting orders to another vendor or just checking stuff like sales tax and the like.

Both my sites are also heavily modified. I'm also upgrading corseceng.com to the new ver6 with even more crazy stuff. You can do javascript and html/css without to much trouble but server side code isn't possible.

Michael Gonzales

02-21-2014, 9:34 PM

Suggest you stay 'way from those sites which allow you to easily create a "free" web site - using their templates - but, where your site is "connected" to theirs. (they pay for this "free site building offer" thru annoying advertising "pop-ups" which will significantly detract from your site.

Bill, thank you for the information. I have been in retail for over thirty years and I know that the things that are offered free are not worth it. I just needed to know that it is true in opening a business also. Thanks. Bill I am in a small town also and there is a limited amount of business here to obtain. Do you ship to cities nearby to increase sales?

Mike g

Michael Gonzales

02-21-2014, 9:57 PM

Bill Stearns

02-21-2014, 10:21 PM

Michael -
Glad I could be of some help. (see there's lots of other good advice offered from others'bout web sites.) Those "site designers" I mentioned had me all wrapped up, for 'least two years, figuring out css formatting - behind the scenes product database creation 'n more - meaning a "hidden" database which lists every single product you offer 'n every size 'n color 'n option, etc. - key if you are thinking about "add to shopping cart" functions. Using my site building program I'm now able to change, and improve, and publish my site by myself, and within minutes - its made all the difference! (I decided to by-pass that "add to shopping cart" stuff - 'cause, my products are too customized and/or too personalized to just click 'n order.) Customers simply see my items, phone, or e-mail me with their needs - works for me. (guess I come from the KISS - keep it simple, stupid - school of thought.)
I'm just now finally realizing - (you are right! - no matter how many products I offer - there's only just so much business to be had 'n a small town. (mine: 'bout 8 to 10,000 P) 'Cause of my site, I bring in customers from throughout my state - and, more 'n more, from 'round the country. (be ready for this with your packing 'n shipping methods 'n services.) I'm still not setting the world on fire - sales wise - but, it's a living. And, I do love the business! Would be interesting to talk with you further 'bout succeeding in a "small town" - got' a lot to say 'bout this!

Bill

Bert Kemp

02-21-2014, 11:07 PM

I use Wix I pay $60 a year and you build your own website, no ad's or pop ups, I pay Hover to host my domain name, that cost an additional $15 a year so for 75 bucks I have a dot com domain name and a website that you can have any look you like, Yea there templates but their designed with business's in mind. You can always use this place and have someone with wed design experience build it for you. Mines not great but I keep working on it.

Jason Hilton

02-22-2014, 12:57 AM

Speaking as someone who does a great deal of website, app, and online store design and implementation, I can tell you that, as with anything, you get what you pay for. Hosting and domain names are cheap, good design and ease of use is not. Also ask yourself, do you want to spare the time and energy it takes to learn to build and maintain your business web site? How much is your time worth? It takes a good deal of learning just to put a site up, and far more still to learn to design it, implement it effectively, build in good SEO, etc. Most "free" solutions provide sites that look just like everyone else's sites instead of a site that truly reflects your business. Free shopping carts abound, but which one? How long do you want to spend choosing the right one?

As discussed in a recent business advertising thread, your web site presence is a huge factor in a first impression for your business. It's worth investing in.

Michael Gonzales

02-22-2014, 7:13 AM

[QUOTE=As discussed in a recent business advertising thread, your web site presence is a huge factor in a first impression for your business. It's worth investing in.[/QUOTE]

Bert that sounds like a good and inexpensive site. How is it working for you?

Jason, I totally agree that making a good first impression is huge for a business.You want someone to stop and look around. A place that makes a customer want to safely spend their hard earned money on something that will make them or a deserving person happy.

Thanks guys

Mike g

Mike Null

02-22-2014, 8:41 AM

When I went to a professionally designed site from my homemade one it was light turning on the light in a dark room.

My site still needs work (by me and the designer) but it's still producing results in a home based environment.

Jiten Patel

02-22-2014, 10:31 AM

I echo what is said above - We invested heavily in our website. At the end of the day, for us, this is our shop window. If you walk down a street with many many many shops, the shop displays have to be pretty impressive for you as a consumer to take notice. Same applies to websites. We recently updated our website with a brand new look etc (check it out through my profile) and the traffic increase has been immense which in-turn means more business.

I personally would say get it done properly (if you have the funds at your disposal) and steer clear of those "DIY" websites which allow you to build your own. Stick to what you do best and leave what others are good at to others (unless you are a web developing guru).

Bill Stearns

02-22-2014, 11:17 AM

Hey All -
I sincerely apologize if I offended 'few people by downplaying the value of turning to a professional web site designer for help. And, those who said a badly designed site speaks poorly of your business are absolutely correct, of course. I was mostly trying to let those unaware know: if you like the idea, and see the value in quickly editing, and improving, your OWN site - yet, want' a stay focused on engraving 'stead of web site design - there are some easy to learn, template type, fairly inexpensive programs available out there - which, with 'little creativity on your part can produce attractive, sales-producing results. (IMO: not "homemade looking at all.) - several people, above, suggested some to consider. Anyway, from my experience learned from the two designers I had used, over two years, I found myself learning more 'bout site-design, than engraving. Most important: I finally realized I was the only one who really knew what I wanted to say, and display, on my site ' 'stead of having someone else translate my thoughts. (not to mention, having to wait days for my designers to get 'round to me.) Bigger point: fancy, and sophisticated, as my past sites were - done by others - it was my using a less expensive program - that began to produce sales! (which ever way you decide to go - big thing is to keep your site fresh, and interesting to visit - and easy for people to navigate.) Would certainly be interested in honest opinions of my site's layout from anyone interested in helping me improve - I'll try to see if it's listed in my profile. (just thoughts 'n sharing my opinions ... )

Bill

Mike Null

02-22-2014, 11:41 AM

I saved money by doing my own photos and copy which I sent to my designer by PDF. He did the background stuff as well as refining my artwork. I use Yahoo as my host and I can make any changes I want but I am not proficient at positioning things so I leave that to the designer.

Bill Stearns

02-22-2014, 11:50 AM

Jit -
Wanted to glance at your web site - did find your "profile" area - did not see your site URL listed. ? I just finished writing 'bout my personal experiences with "professional site design" v.s. the DIY program I found to use. Would very much appreciate your opinion of it - too "home made looking"? (you won't hurt my feelings.) - it does produce sales, 'though not near as many as I would hope for. One issue I'm pondering - could use advice - By stating clearly that I am in "Northern Minnesota" am I limiting myself - looking too "local"? - just that I hate those sites that don't let viewers know where they are located! - your advice would be appreciated. (maybe, you can pvt message me your site?)

Bill

Bill Stearns

02-22-2014, 12:16 PM

Mike -
Yeah, I was doing the same thing for awhile - sending my text 'n photos to my "designer", so I understand. Think my key point is: whether using a designer, or a DIY program, it's key to be able to edit a site quickly. (for ex: I discovered 'other day that the JDS catalog page numbers I show under the products on my site were all wrong! (still don't understand how this happened?) - (this helps me find the items, when customers contact me - p235, etc.) I learned all 'bout CSS, positioning 'n all - lots way over my head - so, I understand how skilled and knowledge-filled those folks have to be. Still - like I've said my using the simpler program started producing sales; the fancier designed site were not! Would certainly be interested in your open opinion of my site - like: the other day someone suggested that I eliminate (under the Services drop-down) my statement that "we don't engrave overly expensive, or irreplaceable items". Made sense to me.
This is sure a wonderfully helpful forum!

Bill

Craig Matheny

02-22-2014, 12:56 PM

OK I have been around websites for the last 20+ years have never payed for a designer to do any work on my sites but that is because I have the software and the know how. Here is the bottom line to this if you have the time, software and know how do it yourself there are many great carts out there to start with and modify. If you do not have the time, software and Know how then hire someone or barter your services.

As far as hosting I have a company ixwebhosting I have used for 10+ years and they allow unlimited domains and is low cost but great service we own aprox. 35 different domain names for 3 businesses and average close to a million hits a year on one of our sites. Our SEO is first page normally top 3 after paid adds.

The one thing I will say is make your site responsive no matter what (adjustable for any screen size desktop, tablet and mobile) our stats in the last year have shifted to 80% mobile or tablet access so having a site that looks good and responds well on a phone is important.

Bill Stearns

02-22-2014, 1:11 PM

Craig -
You kind' a hit the nail-on-the-head! - "if" you have time, and expertise, etc. This all started with that first post- my replying to that guy from Texas asking for info/advice 'bout "free" sites. Think everyone has contributed their thoughts 'n experiences.

Bill

Jason Hilton

02-22-2014, 1:12 PM

Bill,

first, no offense taken! I got into web design because I wanted to do my own site for a small business and didn't want to pay for it, it just turned out to be more interesting to me than the business I had started! If you'd like, contact me by PM. I gave your site a good look, and I can at least offer some advice on improvements you can make yourself. You've got a great start and your content is all there, just needs some modernizing, SEO optimization, and layout cleaning.

Ross Moshinsky

02-22-2014, 1:55 PM

I'm just going to say this: This industry is one of the most difficult to build a website for in my opinion. The level of customization required for each and every product is ridiculous, especially considering some of the products only sell for a $5 or less. The number of choices and customization can make a website a very tall mountain to climb.

I'd rather deal with a huge catalog of items where the only choice is quantity than 500 items where each item has 8 different choices to make. It makes the project quite a handful.

Michele Welch

02-22-2014, 9:35 PM

Just to throw my 2 cents in the mix. I HIGHLY suggest using "Web Hosting Buzz" for a website hosting company. I have been with them for about 10 years now and about 10 different websites and first and foremost I appreciate that they are a family friendly hosting company which means they won't tolerate any type of "X-rated" sites to be hosted on their servers. This is for any pornographic sites and anything closely related. But their prices are always great. They have 3 different levels you can choose and you can always find a 50% off hosting coupon code. Once you use it the first year, it automatically rolls over to the next year. This pricing also includes registration of 1 domain for free. I just renewed my hosting for the year and I paid $37.95 for the entire year. Their backend is easy to navigate and they even have templates you can use to just fill in the info and go. Their customer service is 24/7/365 and they absolutely rock. I had a question on Christmas day a few years ago and jumped online, clicked the chat window and had my answers in a few minutes. I thought that was pretty cool. If y'all need any other information or feel free to use my name as a referral, just ask. Thanks, Michele Welch

Michael Gonzales

02-23-2014, 2:42 AM

Hey All -
I sincerely apologize if I offended 'few people by downplaying the value of turning to a professional web site designer for help.l

Bill,
No need to apologize or give that a second thought. I value your thoughts and opinion and thank you for letting us know.

Mike g

Bill Stearns

02-23-2014, 9:58 AM

Hi Jason -
Tried to pvt message you, at your suggestion, regarding your kind offer to review 'n evaluate my web site - not sure I pvt messaged correctly.? (or, maybe, you just haven't gotten the chance, yet.) Am open to any, and all, comments 'n advice (actually, from others, too) regarding my site. - greatengravings.com - being in 'small town, looks like my web site sales will continue to be crucial to growth 'n survival!

Thanks 'million,
Bill

Phil Thien

02-23-2014, 11:26 AM

I do IT, and I'm a code-monkey at the heart of it (C/ASM). I've never delved too much into html/css, I use an old editor and it gets the job done.

BUT as the IT guy for several businesses, I often get hauled into meetings about websites. I'm stunned at what organizations will pay for a site. ($20k is just starters).

And I'm stunned by how bad most of them are. Lots of glitz, very little substance.

David Ogilvy said it best: Words sell, more words sell more (I'm paraphrasing). You don't go to a state fair and see a carnival hawker holding up the mop he is peddling, spinning it around while he repeats "The world's best mop, the world's best mop..." NO! He is extoling the virtues of his mop. It holds more water, it picks up more dirt, it works faster, it lasts longer, it wrings better. He never shuts up!

Some of the best print ads ever were margin to margin type, very little white space. They had a product shot, and enough text that they were telling you the questions to ask, and then answering them! These ads were often scientifically tested and improved until they couldn't get any more response than they were getting.

And yet we're confronted with this websites that are long on glitz and short on substance. I'm not just talking about engraving, I'm talking about all websites.

So my advice is to skip the platitudes ("We're experienced," "we ship on time," etc.) and concentrate on your true competitive advantage. Talk to people, draw them in. Relate true stories that will demonstrate why they should use your services.

More words, less glitz.

And I'm not saying it shouldn't look nice. But keep in mind, craigslist.org is a very popular destination and it is what? Short on glitz, long on content.

Don Kondra

02-23-2014, 1:29 PM

Perhaps I'm in the minority here.

My website's main function is as a remote portfolio. I offer a service instead of a ready to ship product.

No need for bells and whistles, just information and photo's...

Think of it as an introduction. If a potential client is interested in commissioning me they can get in touch with me through the contact page.

iPage had a sale @ $2/month with a domain name for ~ $30, I signed up for three years. My previous provider dropped hosting which I was paying $5/month for..

After looking around some more I found Weebly. They are a free hosting/build your own site and to keep it free they add their name to the URL address, ie., joeblow.weebly.com or you can purchase a domain name.

NO annoying pop ups, etc.. Just a short line of text on the bottom of the pages.

Now for the kicker, the free site gives me virtually unlimited pages. The paid site is six pages.

Building a site is as easy as picking a template and populating it with contect. To do that you simply drag and drop the appropriate element onto the page and fill it with text or images.

I don't find it limiting at all and I can edit the content and it is live within seconds of hitting the publish button. Both sites offer buying options but I don't need them.

ipage.com

weebly.com

donkondra.com

donkondraproductphotography.weebly.com

Cheers, Don

Don Kondra

02-23-2014, 1:31 PM

Ah, forgot to mention.

So you have a web site. Big deal...

How do people find you ?

That is a whole nother book :)

Cheers, Don

Craig Matheny

02-23-2014, 2:03 PM

Well I have read over this topic a few times and have shared my opinions and the one thing I have not heard any one mention other than myself or Don if I missed it sorry but how do you get people to your site. That is a brand new topic and the truth being until your site is working all the bugs out of it and ready to watch your business expand SEO is nothing to worry about. I do not agree with the fact that you should have text and all pictures web sites love white space this is an area that is empty allows for breathing and clarity. Two many things to remember if your page is the best in the world loaded with all your bells and whistles every one loves it but is slow to load or data heavy the X in the top right box will be clicked more often than not. Not everyone has 50meg Cable down loads some companies still live on DSL and a lot of homes so when you design remember that.

One of my current stores has now been up for about 4 years for lazermodels we have gone from zero hits to almost 1 million hits 50K visits and 86k pages viewed a year our sales are fantastic and our SEO is very strong. Here is the secret we found Fast loading site completely responsive for any devise, low data load, multiple domains with unique pointers coded to create a pyramid SEO with 1000 plus back links per domain but the biggest thing that helped was social media (and I suck at it) but it is important. We have a blog we have Facebook We have Google+ we have twitter we have... I hate it but the neat thing is they are all tied together now one post goes to most of them. Our blog also post to the first page of our website so if we are out of town at a show or anything I can upload a post and the first page of the site changes data this also creates more back links to the site every time you post to a social network from your blog. The key is the more data on the web floating pointing to your site the better your ranking becomes and the more interaction. I know talk is cheap and I have heard it more and more so I am posting the last year of our stats to show this works.

Dan Hintz

02-23-2014, 2:10 PM

Wat kind of limited, expensive sites are you guys finding out there?! For around $100/yr I get 1GB of storage, 100GB/month bandwidth, unlimited email accounts, and a boatload of freebie apps that I never bothered installing (like WordPress, eCart, etc.).

6 page limits? pop-up ads? Stuff like that will kill a website...

Gary Hair

02-23-2014, 3:34 PM

what he said...

Wat kind of limited, expensive sites are you guys finding out there?! For around $100/yr I get 1GB of storage, 100GB/month bandwidth, unlimited email accounts, and a boatload of freebie apps that I never bothered installing (like WordPress, eCart, etc.).

6 page limits? pop-up ads? Stuff like that will kill a website...

Craig Matheny

02-23-2014, 3:53 PM

Any one paying more than 8.00 a month with limitations is paying to much or as low as 4.00 a month with some limitations ixhebhosting dot com is fantastic plus great service.

Jason Hilton

02-23-2014, 8:00 PM

There are quite a few good hosting providers out there that are very affordable. I have been recommending dreamhost to my clients. I don't recommend hostgator or godaddy for anything other than very basic sites. Any database or PHP applications such as shopping carts or content management systems will suffer. Shared hosting in general should be avoided for any memory or database intensive sites.

In terms of design, Phil mentioned something about more words sell more. That is true in direct sales, but in web marketing the opposite is true: Web users don't read. They look at pictures and glamor to make their buying decisions. Many studies have demonstrated that when users are presented with 2 versions of a web site selling the same products at the same price, the "glitzy" site always sells more. If your web site looks to you like it's from the mid-nineties, your potential customers think so too.

As far as SEO, books have been written and there are tons of resources on the web. Any web designer worth anything will have many SEO optimizations baked into their site design. If you work with a designer, ask them to tell you what techniques they'll use to optimize your site for SEO. Then google those techniques and figure out how to check them, or ask someone knowledgeable that you trust to look at the results. Also ask how they'll use analytics. When in doubt, bail out. There are a lot of "SEO Experts" out there who learn a bunch of terminology and then, when a site doesn't make the first page of google results, they tell you about the "fuzziness" of google's indexing and how difficult it is to predict how a site will land. None of that is true. You can reliably and fairly push a site to the top of the ranks, but it takes time, dedication, and good management. That said, your income will thank you for it.

Good web designers cost good money, but bad ones usually charge like they're good. Ask a lot of questions and educate yourself to the capabilities out there before you commit to spending thousands on a web site.

Bill Stearns

02-23-2014, 8:52 PM

Hi All -
Boy! - that fella, Michael, sure started a fire-storm, didn't he? - with that very first beginning letter asking 'bout "free" web sites! (lots of good advice 'n insights being offered 'bout web site building - and, the need.) Having been involved 'n the past with incredibly competitive, sometimes cut-throat, businesses - it is truly an amazing thing to see so many business people willing to share their knowledge 'n experience 'n time with others who need help. - like me. (just wanted toy say!)

Bill

Phil Thien

02-23-2014, 9:42 PM

In terms of design, Phil mentioned something about more words sell more. That is true in direct sales, but in web marketing the opposite is true: Web users don't read. They look at pictures and glamor to make their buying decisions. Many studies have demonstrated that when users are presented with 2 versions of a web site selling the same products at the same price, the "glitzy" site always sells more. If your web site looks to you like it's from the mid-nineties, your potential customers think so too.

Amazon spends more time and money on this sort of research than anyone else. While they don't publish white papers (for obvious reasons), all one has to do is look at their site and you too can benefit from all the millions they've spent.

And Amazon clearly thinks their customers are readers.

If there is any doubt, here is a link to a popular Dewalt table saw sold by Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW745-10-Inch-Job-Site-Capacity/dp/B000HXT2N6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1393207038&sr=8-2&keywords=dewalt+table+saw

Same saw at Toolbarn:

http://www.toolbarn.com/dewalt-dw745.html

Amazon clearly has 2x to 3x more text (a lot more than that if you count their Q&A section, and reviews) than Toolbarn.

BTW, you can also go to the waybackmachine and compare Amazon circa 2000 to today's Amazon and you'll find less white space and more text at today's Amazon.

David Somers

02-23-2014, 10:37 PM

Phil,

Hmmmm. I think we may be looking at the same page but seeing different things. When I look at the link you gave us I see a page, that in its entirety has a tremendous amount of information available. But I also see the opening screen of that same page, the part you see when you first click on the item and get taken to this page, is not that heavily populated. There is plenty of white space. The page in its entirety has been designed so that the portion you are first exposed to provides you with the basics you want, plus items that Amazon would like to steer you to. If that has caught your eye enough you then scroll down the screen and start picking up the myriad other bits of info they offer you.

Plus, this interface of Amazon's is well known to everyone who has ever shopped with them or just browsed frequently enough. It is consistent from item to item and you know where to go for the information you want. But that opening screen is much sparcer than the rest.

Or at least that is what my eyes are perceiving?

Dave

Phil Thien

02-23-2014, 11:05 PM

Hmmmm. I think we may be looking at the same page but seeing different things. When I look at the link you gave us I see a page, that in its entirety has a tremendous amount of information available. But I also see the opening screen of that same page, the part you see when you first click on the item and get taken to this page, is not that heavily populated.

When I open the Amazon link I included, there is at least as much real estate on that first screen devoted to text about the product, than to pictures of the product. And if you count the other text on the screen, I'd say two-thirds of the page is devoted to text, and one-third to pictures. And if you count all the words on that page, and include all the words in the reviews and the Q&A, there is a ton of text about the Dewalt table saw.

And consider that Amazon allows people to upload their own images, we've all seen those. But 268 people have written reviews (some quite lengthy), and not a single person has uploaded a picture.

My point is, contrary to popular opinion, words sell and Amazon is proof of this, as they've done everything in their power to turn their customers into copywriters.

David Somers

02-24-2014, 12:12 AM

Evening Phil!

I guess I don't consider that opening screen to be text heavy. When I think of a text heavy screen I think of one where there is a ton of info, and you have to work your way through it to find it. As opposed to a screen where there is a fair amount of info, but it is not laid out in a way that makes you slug your way through it. I think we are both agreeing that is a fairly effective screen, and the whole page itself is also effective in allowing you access to as much info as you want if you choose to go further.

I am off to bed right now, but if I get some time I will see if I can find a page that I think is far too text heavy and a chore to go through. I have a feeling we are more in agreement than we realize.

Later!

Dave

Jason Hilton

02-24-2014, 12:24 AM

Amazon isn't a good comparison to a small or medium sized engraving business, it's a bit apples to giant-mega-retailer. You wouldn't compare the store layout of a Walmart to the layout of a mom & pop craft store would you? In UX design we do work we call "Persona Creation". Personas are representative profiles of an archtype, a group of like users. Persona's detail the reasons a customer comes to a specific web site, their motivations, their decision making criteria, their wants and needs, etc. The core reason we do this is to understand the difference between our various groups of users so that we can craft products that best serve their needs. Amazon spent a lot of money on this, and what they found out isn't that "more words = more sales", they discovered that customers trust other customers. Amazon shoppers are often overwhelmed by product variety, and as Amazon expanded out from selling books they discovered that their customers often suffered from analysis paralysis, the inability to choose between an overwhelming set of options. They couldn't simplify because product specs are product specs and they wanted to carry every possible product. Instead they created the customer review system, which allows customers to review products they've purchased and, more importantly, allows customers to read reviews and get the unbiased opinions of their peers, making decision making much easier. Amazon had a problem, but it wasn't about saying enough about a product, it was about allowing good products to be distinguished from the noise. You'll notice on any given product page the main description of a product is quite short. Additional details require scrolling. You'll also notice that there's a quicklink to customer reviews directly under the name of the product. What do you think analytics says is the most often used option on any give amazon product page?

No one sells products better than happy customers and amazon knows it. I haven't seen any eye-tracking studies first hand, but I know amazon does them, and they show that overwhelmingly shoppers on their site click a product and jump straight to the reviews. Descriptive text is there to make the product manufacturers happy, customers want to know what other customers think.

So how can we apply that thinking to a much smaller engraving business? Customer testimonials on each page are a great and simple way to add 3rd party value to a product. If you have a really large and active customer base, you can try implementing a similar product review system, but be careful. Unreviewed items where the ability to review exists overwhelmingly give a negative impression. Best choice is take a middle road, keep it simple. Publish simple feedback from real customers about your products.

As to design, again, overwhelmingly the data shows that pretty wins almost every time. There are exceptions (craigslist for example), but those are exceptions, not the rule. And unless your business has established cultural relevance, better to go for stunning design, great service, and amazing products.

Phil Thien

02-24-2014, 9:29 AM

Jason, I'd encourage most anyone crazy enough to start a small crafts store to copy most of what Wal-Mart has done. An interesting story: When Rockler opened their Milwaukee-area store (wayback), they had some nice custom fixtures. Maybe they produced them in-house, I don't know. They were awfully nice. But they were very purpose built and looked pretty spendy. A few years later, they started pulling all of it out and replacing it with gondolas (Wal-Mart claims to be the first mass merchandiser to build entire stores around crop rows of the super-flexible shelving/pegboard/etc. gondolas we're accustomed to seeing today). Of course, Rockler went with a different color scheme than Wal-Mart, but nothing beats the flexibility of those gondolas. I'd also advise anyone opening a small retail shop to observe Wal-Marts layout, their IT, etc. All of it was developed over decades, has been thoroughly tested, and is proven.

In terms of text at Amazon, those reviews are full of bias and many of them are problematic. The beauty is, we can all spot the guy reviewing the table saw that knows what he is talking about. And his mention of the relatively short arbor shaft that won't handle a full dado stack is often the type of information we're after. My point is, the reviews contain valuable information, and we all know how to find what we need within those reviews. In terms of your assertion that people go immediately to the reviews, I think that just demonstrates what I've been saying all along: Words sell. People want to know specific information about products, they often use the review search feature in order to find it.

And I'm not saying a website shouldn't be pretty. But what I typically see is a web designer than can make a pretty web page but doesn't write good copy. So you see a couple of pictures of a engraved keychain, and a description that says "KEYCHAIN/ENGRAVED/PRICE EACH/MINIMUM ORDER 10" or some such silly thing.

Now, I think we've gotten way OT, and I think we've presented the readers with enough arguments to decide for themselves, I think we should let this one go before heading down the rabbit hole any further. If you want to discuss it any further, feel free to PM me.

Jason Hilton

02-24-2014, 11:38 AM

I think these perspectives are valuable to all. I should point out, because I think it's important, that web designers don't write copy. Business owners and copywriters should write copy. Most web designers specifically state that all content must be provided by the client. I will make suggestions, and where necessary and the budget allows it recommend a good copywriter, but ultimately content is the clients responsibility. My job is effective design, great usability, and providing the best user experience to enable sales and communicate the sites message.

With regards to amazon, we're saying the same thing, but weighting it differently. My point stands. Words themselves, and the volume of them, are unimportant. How they're used to enhance a customers experience and drive sales of a product are what are important. More isn't always better, and on a web site it almost never is.

Michael Gonzales

02-25-2014, 7:42 PM

There is a lot of very good information here and each and every post is appreciated. This has answered many questions and made a few more. Thank you for the information and direction. It is very helpful.

Mike g

Andy Cree

02-25-2014, 7:49 PM

I use the free website template offered by Weebly. I pay NameCheap $6 a year or so for the domain and the rest is free through Weebly. Is Weebly the best? Probably not, but it is better that I can do on my own and I am happy with it. It is also super easy to use. If you want to check it out, my home page is listed under my member information.

Andy

Mike Lysov

02-26-2014, 4:40 AM

If you want to sell through your website with fully functional shopping cart it is better to find a hosted shopping cart provider. Most of them offer design templates, integration with multiple channels(ebay, etsy, amazon, facebook shop), real time shipping quotes, reviews, email, marketing and a lot of other great tools including accounting apps. Most apps/tools are free, some cost extra.
I pay for mine just $45/month(500 products and no transaction fee) with everything included. All you need to do is to buy your own domain and set up your store in admin panel for your shopping cart. You do not need to worry about or pay for hosting, it is included too.

As a former web developer the most thing I do not like about hosted shopping carts is only that you cannot modify a main engine(server code) and only limited to some front-end modification.
However I used to have a boxed shopping cart software(costed me around $300 to buy) where I could modify anything I wanted and I had to pay for hosting myself. The problem with it boxed software that doing all missing integration in it would cost me months of work just for it and I did not have so much time.

Mike Lysov

02-26-2014, 4:51 AM

BTW, if you do a good SEO job for your web store(I have done all SEO myself with a max of $50 spent on small extra SEO services) your sales will jump for sure. My sales have jumped steady 100% and for some months up to 300% since I have opened my web store. I have even stopped paying for AdWords because with my current position in google search I mostly compete with my own links on the first page when I run AdWords campaigns.

Mike Null

02-26-2014, 6:47 AM

Jason Hilton has provided the most valuable advice in the thread.

I think these perspectives are valuable to all. I should point out, because I think it's important, that web designers don't write copy. Business owners and copywriters should write copy. Most web designers specifically state that all content must be provided by the client. I will make suggestions, and where necessary and the budget allows it recommend a good copywriter, but ultimately content is the clients responsibility. My job is effective design, great usability, and providing the best user experience to enable sales and communicate the sites message.

Phil Thien

02-26-2014, 10:06 AM

Jason Hilton has provided the most valuable advice in the thread.

LOL, I wasn't going to post any more but I feel I must now defend my honor.

I'd just like to post a link to this article:
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2012/05/18/quick-course-on-effective-website-copywriting/

And here is an interesting excerpt:

How Much Information Should I Provide?
Tests have shown that 79% of people don’t read (http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9710a.html), they just skim. However, 16% read everything.

Those 16% are your main target group, the most interested people. If people are not interested in what you are selling, it doesn’t matter how long or short your sales copy is. If they are interested, you should give them as much information as possible.

Complete information is the best sales copy. A study by IDC (http://www.idc.com/) showed that 50% of the uncompleted purchases were due to lack of information. They can always skip parts and click the “buy” button once they have the information they need. But if they read through the whole thing and they’re still not convinced, then you have a problem.

This is why you should always strive to say everything that can possibly be said about your product. You cannot be there in person to explain and answer the questions, so your copy needs to do it for you.

50% of uncompleted purchases were due to lack of information.

Wow.

Finally, the assertion that people go with the pretty website over the not-so-pretty website each time also sort of flies in the face of what is happening over at Amazon, where I find their site to be pretty utilitarian and not pretty at all.

I'd say looking professional, and complete, is far more important than looking pretty.

Mike Null

02-26-2014, 12:24 PM

I'd say search engines read copy. But I agree with you about attractive sites. Presentation is important whatever you're selling.

Steve Redrup

02-26-2014, 1:36 PM

Can you guys post links to your site, then also provide the information on hosting, who built it, ect. This would help people understand the cost and time vs a professionally built site.

Gary Hair

02-26-2014, 1:52 PM

Jason Hilton

02-26-2014, 2:06 PM

I've read that study, as well as probably 20 others, and performed some myself for various clients. I think we've gotten a little too into the single detail of "words on the page" but missed the rest of the qualities of a good small business web site. Good effective design takes into account type of copy, style and emphasis, and quality for SEO, as well as layout, visual appeal, color, navigation, time-on-page, time-to-task, usability, and 20 other things. I don't start any research or design work for my clients until I have at least 75% of the launch content, because I base design decisions around what that content will be.

Amazon's site isn't an exception to beautiful design, it's exceptionally well designed for it's purpose. The color palette is clean, the site segregates and categorizes content effectively (what is referred to as good information architecture), and they use standard layouts for all their pages. Is it pretty? Well, to a designer it is, but as a piece of visual stimulation that pulls you in? Not really, but amazon doesn't need to, and THAT is the absolutely significant fact about this discussion. As I said before, you can't compare walmart to a mom & pop shop. You also can't compare amazon to our small and medium sized engraving businesses. If you model your small business web site after amazon your web site will fail. One out-of-context data-point does not a fact make. Amazon doesn't need pretty design to pull in customers because amazon is amazon. A small online retailer among thousands of like retailers selling the same products? You better believe good visual design is important.

Here's a great article on some studies carried out by google and other UX organizations about how much design influences customer impressions:

http://conversionxl.com/first-impressions-matter-the-importance-of-great-visual-design/#.

"Of all the feedback the test participants gave, 94% was about design (complex, busy layout, lack of navigation aids, noring web design especially use of color, pop up adverts, slow introductions to site, small print, too much text, corporate look and feel, poor search facilities). Only 6% of the feedback was about the actual content. Visual appeal and website navigation appeared had by far the biggest influence on people’s first impressions of the site."

I realize now that I've been having a discussion about good design versus more words by using words, so tell me, and be honest, which of the two examples below are more likely to get your business?

283409

Mark Sipes

02-26-2014, 3:57 PM

If you click on the "Name" of the person posting a reply you will see if that person has enabled a link to their website...

Some members are more business oriented while other more guarded..

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Mike Chance in Iowa

02-26-2014, 4:12 PM

Can you guys post links to your site, then also provide the information on hosting, who built it, ect. This would help people understand the cost and time vs a professionally built site.

You know how we see often posted on this site how our customers have no idea how much work is involved to engrave their logo or graphic on an item? Well the same goes for web design. There is so much involved behind the scenes. Like Jason mentioned, a web designer is not necessarily a writer, so it is up to the business person to provide the content for the web site. No matter how much you plan for this project, there is always much more time involved in building the web site.

A web site is not something you just whip out in an hour or two unless all you plan to have on it is your contact information and bare minimum such as a logo and slogan. Building a quality web site can take weeks, and if you want your customers to be able to order from your web site, that can take months to build. It involves regular communication with your web designer and it requires testing as you build it.

One thing I have not seen anyone mention is server reliability. Many of those mass-advertise, web hosting companies over-sell their server space or do not care who they sell their server space to - i.e. porn, bootleggers & spammers. Many people have no idea how many times their web site has been down each week because they do not regularly monitor what the server is doing or look at the server error logs. Many people have no idea that their domain is being flagged as a spammer because they are sharing the same server space with a spammer or porn site. When selecting a host server, don't just believe the "99.9%" reliability jpg they have on the sales page. They should have a dynamic (always updating) server status page that you can check at any time and see what the server is doing or links to 3rd party monitoring sites that show what their true server uptime is.

Yet another thing I have not seen mentioned is in regards to contact information. I see so many "home made" web sites that belong to xyz.com yet their contact information is pattycake24 @bigcable.net. That just screams unprofessional to me. When you buy your own domain, you can create any email name you want. You should have a professional contact email such as sales @xyz.com listed on your site. (You can even forward that @xyz.com email to your personal email account if you don't want to check multiple email accounts.)

While web design was not my chosen career, I have spent more then my fair share working on web sites & databases. Like Jason, I have seen the most effective web sites to be the ones that are clean, uncomplicated and easy to navigate. There is a short book called "Don't Make Me Think" by Steve Krug that is an easy-read even for the business owner. After reading that book, you will definitely think about your web site and what you can do to improve it.

Phil Thien

02-26-2014, 4:17 PM

I think we've gotten a little too into the single detail of "words on the page" but missed the rest of the qualities of a good small business web site.

I sat-in on a college photography class a bunch of times. [When I was growing up, I went to an elementary school that was on the same "block" as the local university. My mom worked and often didn't get home until after four or five, so after school I'd often wander around in the various halls and find classes/lectures that interested me. This continued even into high school as the bus dropped me off right at the university bus stop (I lived three blocks away). By the time I was in eighth grade I had probably spent more time in college classes/lectures than most people with four-year degrees.]

So anyhow once a week students would display their latest photos and the class would critique the work. It was pretty interesting. At least a few times that semester I saw photos that really spoke to me, sending shivers down my spine. I remember to this day one of young lady at a funeral, it was taken with a telephoto lens and the expression and tears on this young lady's face told the entire story.

But never once did any single photo ever get away without some critical remarks, some of them brutal. Others would have framed it differently, they would have adjusted the camera differently to increase or decrease contrast, whatever. There was often no universal agreement on whether a photo was actually any good.

A few times, in fact, the professor had secretly included copies of work of famous, critically-acclaimed photogs, and those took a beating as well.

My takeaway was that there is little universal agreement over what is great. It can be tested, to a degree, but that can be tricky because people will often fixate on things they find distasteful longer than they will look at something that pleases them.

In the late 80's and early 90's, when desktop publishing was all the craze and everyone was going to be a professional desktop publisher, I saw the same sorts of things happen. You could give the same assignment to five different guys, get five radically different results, and everyone thought their own work was great and everything else was carp.

I guess that is what we call taste. And taste isn't universal.

So I'd encourage people to go for professional and functional, and not to give anyone enough rope that they can hang you.

In terms of the two sites you included in the screen shots: After actually looking up those two sites, they are different business types. But if your point is that the one on the left is a joke and has too much text, you may want to click-around that site a bit: She does $68M US/year in business through that site, and claims to be the largest auto leasing outfit in the UK. How much is Star Limousine doing per year? I'll tell you this: It isn't anywhere near $68M US. You may have just unintentionally reinforced my point that words sell, and more words sell more. That is one butt-ugly site with a lot of text, and she is doing $68M US/year!!! LOL, yikes!

Jason Hilton

02-26-2014, 5:11 PM

Mark Sipes

02-26-2014, 6:32 PM

Well of the 5 members that have listed their websites, for the markets, merchandise and target audience they are displaying all appear very well prepared to me. But what do I know, I'm just an engraver who dabbles with java, html, flash and C++. and when I hit 25M I'll turn it over to the professionals (my kids).

Phil Thien

02-26-2014, 6:44 PM

How much more money would she make if she didn't discourage visitors with her eyeball burning site design? An honest first impression was the exercise, so be honest: Both sites rent vehicles with drivers, which one would you choose? How much business you do now isn't the purpose of the thread, but how to do more.

My single data point would be irrelevant, we already know that she is doing $68M US, and is #1 in the U.K. Apparently, not everyone fancies a pretty design as much as they do helpful information and a site that, overall, works quite well.

But if you really want to know my answer, I would probably select her business. I actually plan on spending reading time at her site this evening.

One last counter-point, because I think you've cherry-picked this into the ground: You CAN quantify great when it comes to effective web sites. You mentioned studies above that did just that, and there are hundreds more, and in terms of design they all say much the same thing. Your photography analogy isn't relevant because your opinion and mine don't actually matter. What best serves the CUSTOMER and the BUSINESS is what matters, and those things are easy to quantify. If you choose to ignore some of them (as ling's does) be happy getting less sales than you could.

I'm not cherry picking, those two sites were picked by you.

And measuring is tricky business. Even you will have to admit that Ling's site would score terribly in almost any sort of testing. And yet...

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this. You seem to think that Ling should redesign her site to look more professional. However, I'll bet you can find plenty of direct competitors with sites that do look quite professional that would love to trade places with her.

Jason Hilton

02-26-2014, 7:33 PM

Uuuugh, ok, you sucked me in one last time. Again with the sales numbers, one data point doesn't make it a rule. The Ling site is an aberration, a black swan, and not a valid reason to ignore good design, just as buying a lottery ticket is not an effective way to get rich.

And again, measuring is not a tricky business. We can measure large sample human responses to personal impression, style, substance... We can perform A/B testing against two different versions of the same site, and then before/after testing using analytics. We can measure increases and decreases in SALES. What we can't do is assume that since one site got lucky and another site is amazon, that will work for a small business.

I leave this discussion (not the thread, happy to continue to add my expertise where appropriate) with one final thought:

You can choose to focus on a single detail to the expense (and seeming dismissal) of all else, or you can consider all the factors. It's your business after all, and you should be making the decisions you feel are best for your business. But don't allow your personal beliefs or opinions to cloud your judgement of your business. Look at your business and your web site objectively, do some unbiased sampling and testing, don't just assume since one web site does it that it's way is right for you. Think about your potential customers, think about their wants and needs, why they're visiting your web site, and what it will take to make them buy. Once you understand those things, then decide what's important to communicate to your customers (NOT you) on your web site.

Jason Hilton

02-26-2014, 7:39 PM

Regarding Online Sales and Shopping carts:

I usually recommend using Ecwid for integrating a store into an existing site. It is insert code hosted by ecwid, meaning you don't have to install and configure database applications and heavy scripting on your own site, you simply drop the appropriate code into your page and Ecwid does the rest. It's an affordable option that is very easy to use and maintain.

If you're looking for an entirely hosted solution check out square market. It's Square's online storefront, and integrates directly with Square credit card processing, so if you use Square to accept credit cards you don't have to do any additional merchant account set-ups or fees.

Ross Moshinsky

02-26-2014, 7:54 PM

I've been working with Paypal's buttons/cart and it's actually very flexible yet very basic. The biggest thing you're missing is all of the back end options but the way the Paypal cart is designed you can do a lot by just using HTML/Java/JQuery which I've found a lot easier to work with than figuring out how to work with existing cart options.

Phil Thien

02-26-2014, 9:03 PM

Uuuugh, ok, you sucked me in one last time. Again with the sales numbers, one data point doesn't make it a rule. The Ling site is an aberration, a black swan, and not a valid reason to ignore good design, just as buying a lottery ticket is not an effective way to get rich.

Right, but I've linked a great article that provides compelling reasons for erring on the side of more information, not less (as far as copy). And that article referred to an IDC study that said 50% of those that don't purchase cite a lack of information as the reason. And of course we have the example of the 500 # gorilla (Amazon, which is not irrelevant as you say just because of their scale) absolutely overloading users with text. And last but not least, Lings, which is a business you first cited as an example of what not to do, but despite breaking all your rules it turns out they're the market leader.

I'm not advocating poor design. I'm advocating good copy with lots of information, and I think that can be incorporated into good design.

That is my position in a nutshell. I just wanted to make that clear so people didn't think I was hanging my hat on Lings alone.

I'll give you guys some peace now.

Mark Sipes

02-26-2014, 10:02 PM

I get it .. don't just tell the customers that you can laser engraver their items.. pull out the manuals and give them a class on how a laser works and how your laser is better than the competition, how items are deliver to your location via UPS or Fed-x and show the location of all your distributors and how the 8 day delivery maps work from your location and I could just go on and on when really...... the customer just wants to know when they can pick the item up.

If you check out my website the 2 biggest questions I get are: What are your hours... and where are you located..?... Let's see how long it takes you to find that information on my site. I've hidden the information so the customer is forced to read my entire site to find it.....Ready Go!

Can't find my web site... refer to post #52 It's right there in the thread.

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