curved wainscoting

[mreza Salav]

Note: all below I'm talking about Maple with stain finish (not paint).
If one wants to go about installing curved wainscoting (say on a curved stair case) how do you do it? using 3/4" materials (plywood) for rails/stiles with kerf cuts in the back to bend to the wall or do you use multiple layers of thinner (say 1/4") laminated? I'm worried about not getting a flush joint between rails/stiles if I use the layered glue-up method?
Question two is: how should I bend the applied mouldings that goes around it? If it matters, I am thinking of flat panel (1/4" or 1/8" ply) with applied moulding around.

[Loren Woirhaye]

I would probably do a rabbeted curved frame and bend up the panels from bending ply in a vacuum bag. You can use 3/8" bending ply and veneer both sides to fix the bend. It will still be a little flexible I think after that, which should make it easier to push into the rabbets. I would probably glue and screw it. Then the straight applied mouldings with a rabbet to ride the frame are easy. The curved applied mouldings you'll probably just have to sweat the details to make them close to perfect.

[Peter Quinn]

Usually either the rails get bent on the wall where they will live, vacuum bag clamped to framing as outside form, or you make a full sized stair mock up to bend all your parts on......large warehouse, full sized full height framed circular form, bend stair aprons, wainscot, hand rails, all of it referencing same form, make sure house is framed very close to plan. Easy way? There is no easy way. Moldings....I hear stories about routers with large bits and a somewhat complicated Rube Goldberg looking jig to guide the router...blanks glued up from wall or form similar to other parts. Mitering curved moldings into straights is a joy IME.....make extra. Its curving and rising at the same time, like a curved rake molding going into a straight piece. There is a reason this part is a specialized trade, and curved stairs with wainscot fall in the more complicated part of house finishing. I'm working on a bent lamination bow front cabinet presently, two little frame and panel doors with flat panels...well bowed flat panels, not raised....major set up times for each operation. And thats a curved plane in a rectilinear frame. But if you can draw it you can probably build it.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks. Loren, the idea of rabbet behind the rails/stiles to receive the panel is what I was thinking. I am "guessing" that once rails/stiles are secure in place they should hold a 1/8" thick ply (with glue in the back to the wall).
What I don't know yet is how to have 3/4" material bent for the rails: start with 3/4" material and make kerf cuts in the back to bend it or start with multi layers of thinner stock (1/8" or so) and bend/glue them.
Peter, I'm going to try building the railing (curved) and the newel posts (box). Worst case I wast a bit of lumber and my time and then will ask one of the pros (who have already given me quotes) to come and do the job. Wainscoting is an extra bonus that I'll try if I'm successful at the railing :-)

[Mel Fulks]

I like putting the panels into rabbet from face side and applying sticking. In some cases just using moulding applied directly to wall looks good. The rails can usually be made with just two layers as the pitch makes the bending easy. I make one ply wider than the other but both good and straight. Then use the over hanging edge as guide when ripping to finished size. Chair rail is glued up wider than finish size so that when it is moulded on shaper I can use one bearing up and one bearing down.Then rip down. Since you want everything stained your job is more difficult as plys can show ,and dark wood is hard to get enough light to show well on a stair. I think you need a firm design plan,before you can really decide on any specific construction plan.

[Loren Woirhaye]

I would steam bend the frame rails personally. That's something I am set up for and enjoy. Laminating may be more predictable but even then the springback is a factor. With steam bending the part can be re-steamed and it will relax, or can be bent a little more. A Veritas steam bending rig to bend a 2" wide frame part up to about 18' long will set you back about $130. I use 2 rigs to bend parts to 4" thick but I haven't tested if a 3" wide part (for example) could be bent using a 2" wide strap. Then you'd need a steam box. Kerf bending can have a funny faceted appearance when finished.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,Loren .There is spring back, but very smooth curve with no facets. After gluing and ripping I have put rails back on the form FACE DOWN with a few screws .Then 3/8 bending luan is stapled and glued after drilling holes in luan to allow
removal of screws. That much is then rigid ,so it can be removed from form, flipped over and worked on. Obviously that can't be done with stained finish.

[Loren Woirhaye]

I suppose if the laminated curve is a little off, you can add another layer on the back and try to pull it where you want it. Because you have a one-sided thing with the wainscoting all sorts of mess can be made on the back of it.

Is that what you're getting at Mel?

[mreza Salav]

Here are the photos in a friends house I am trying to mimic:

http://architechstairs.com/_img/_gallery/classic/Ring-Panel-3.jpg
http://architechstairs.com/_img/_gallery/classic/Ring-Panel-4.jpg
http://architechstairs.com/_img/_gallery/classic/Ring-Panel-5.jpg

Both the stair builder and the finishing guy were extremely good IMO (so where those who finish sprayed everything). I was watching the trim work guy (a 70 year old Italian) doing some of the work but wasn't there when he did the wainscoting and unfortunately he has passed away.
My stairs will NOT be see through like this.

[Jeff Duncan]

The curved parts are easy, I do laminated construction as it's what I know and am used to doing. You do have to account for spring back, but different glues, (like epoxy), can eliminate most of that if it's a concern. Easiest way to do the panels if they're flat is going to be kerfcore mdf with a maple veneer. If they're going to be raised panels, well that's going to be a lot more work! Most of the aspects of curved work are pretty simple, just time consuming….it's the curves that rise as Peter mentioned, that make life difficult. They look easier than they really are, and if you think "they don't look easy" than your really in for a treat! I honestly haven't done enough of that type of work to give any meaningful advice except plan on having a LOT of time and do practice runs on scrap first! Before I started my own shop we did a large convention center which was a LOT of round and curved forms we had to build and laminate. I don't even remember exactly how the guys cut the laminate for the parts that had rising curves, just that is was a bit of trial and error to get it right…..and it wasn't right the first time:(

The good thing is if/when you do get it right…..your going to get a lot of high praise:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

There are some odd things in that design, the worst being the STRAIGHT section on one side at the bottom of one photo.It is in a very important spot!
It's an odd combination of ornate and modern,I think it should have a chair rail type moulding. The way that one newel abuts the string board looks raw. Having the basement stair curved hurts the main flight. It's too steep. The majesty of the
Federal circular stairs is the space consuming,hanging in the air ,slow comfortable walk. Other than that...I like it!

[mreza Salav]

Mel, there is no straight section there (I'm not sure which one you are talking about) but the main floor stairs fans out (opens on both sides) due to a technical issue (it would stick too much out into the hall way if it was to curve around the circle continiously).. Here is another photo showing it (look at the top railing to see the curve):
http://architechstairs.com/_img/_gallery/classic/Ring-Panel-1.jpg

[Mel Fulks]

I think curving the other way is even worse. A circular stair can not be 'made to work' in spite of technical issues. It has to be the star. Take a look at some pictures of the federal stairs. Your friends stair gives you a chance to better plan your own. Your eye will get more educated over time. The stair will remain whatever it is. That's why some people have to build TWO dream houses.

[mreza Salav]

I know it is wrong and it was too late to fix things at that point. Ours hopefully won't have that problem (stairs are in production and will arrive in two weeks).
I'll start my railing soon after (I hope).
After some thinking I think I've figured out how to do the curved wainscot and how to setup my clamping (in different stages). For rails, probably I'll do the first 4-5 layers of 1/8" ply and screw them to the wall, then there will be a last layer (skin) of 1/8" thick that will be only glued on. It should be a lot easier to clamp/glue that veneer (vs multiple layers). I am (perhaps naievely) not too worried about the panel. I intend to use 1/8" ply and that should be pretty easy to bend and secure in the rabbet of the rails. For applied mouldings have to think more but I'm guessing if I kerf cut the back of the thick ones a little bit, it shouldn't be too hard to bend them into place. The radius of the curve is about 8'.
I will post my progress (good or bad).

[Keith Mathewson]

If you intend to do a single point radius stair as shown in the pics then all the component parts will be the same. The panels can be done on form in a vacuum bag. It is much easier to form to a convex form than a concave one, like say trying to form it directly on the wall. Remember to orientate the face veneer so that the grain is plumb when installed. The rails can be done like bending rail but the stiles will be straight and profiled. Depending on what tooling you have they can be moulded or done with a block plane and a card scraper profiled with a grinding wheel. You will need to start with thicker stock. What may be the most difficult to dial in will be the meters on the applied molding, they are hunting miters and not plain miters. If it is a large radius like the one shown it shouldn't be that hard, you may even be able to make up a router jig.

[Mark Bolton]

Is that pre-finished hardwood on the floor in that place?

[mreza Salav]

Is that pre-finished hardwood on the floor in that place?

Yes Mark, and believe it or not I'm getting the exact same, solid Santos Mahogany (initially I wanted Jatoba but Mahogany is just beautiful IMO).

[Mark Bolton]

I know its the new normal but it just seems so left short in a job of that scale in my opinion. Changing times. Good reason to pass the torch.

[mreza Salav]

I know its the new normal but it just seems so left short in a job of that scale in my opinion.
sorry but I don't get this part, what do you mean :confused:

[Peter Quinn]

I know its the new normal but it just seems so left short in a job of that scale in my opinion. Changing times. Good reason to pass the torch.


I didn't want to criticize given the amount of work going into this project.....but I'm right there with you. The longest board on that floor is maybe 5', most much shorter in those pictures, its a patchwork of different colors and choppy short lengths, my eye is immediately drawn to the floor and not in a good way, its a complete step below the rest of the work I'm seeing, like a casual after thought. Replace it with a custom hardwood floor from a mill that knows how to make them, better color separation, longer lengths, smaller v's, it just tightens up and completes the whole thing. No reason you can't get santos in much longer lengths. It certainly adds to the budget, possibly doubling the cost of the floor, but on the projects I've been involved with in my area that sort of floor would be frankly unthinkable in conjunction with the rest of the work happening there. Thats a custom stair with a commodity floor beneath it. But if its acceptable to the home owner and it pleases them, so be it.

[Mark Bolton]

I didn't want to criticize given the amount of work going into this project.....but I'm right there with you. The longest board on that floor is maybe 5', most much shorter in those pictures, its a patchwork of different colors and choppy short lengths, my eye is immediately drawn to the floor and not in a good way, its a complete step below the rest of the work I'm seeing, like a casual after thought. Replace it with a custom hardwood floor from a mill that knows how to make them, better color separation, longer lengths, smaller v's, it just tightens up and completes the whole thing. No reason you can't get santos in much longer lengths. It certainly adds to the budget, possibly doubling the cost of the floor, but on the projects I've been involved with in my area that sort of floor would be frankly unthinkable in conjunction with the rest of the work happening there. Thats a custom stair with a commodity floor beneath it. But if its acceptable to the home owner and it pleases them, so be it.

In addition, I just have a problem with pre-fin on a job of that scale. They are never tight and they will be looser faster. In addition to the lengths and the color my eye is always drawn to the accentuated joints that are inevitable with pre-finished. I know its a sign of the times but to me its just sad that people moving on projects of this scale I guess just think its fine. Ive never been impressed though have used them more times than I can count but I dont work at this scale. It would bother me greatly if I did.

I dont want to be so snooty as to say they dont know better but I think its the direction the industry is headed. It just feels HGTV to me as compared to what it should.

All that said, I guess it comes down to the same thing it has for all the time Ive been in the trade. Your always asking you client to trade a little footage so they can invest in a bit more on attention to detail but the answer is usually no.

[mreza Salav]

Ok, now I see what you mean, short boards of hardwood. The second photo (which is full of shorts) is actually basement (btw that is eng. hardwood but santos again). Lauzon is pretty much the best you can get up hear if there was better options I'd have chosen...