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Don Young
02-20-2014, 11:14 AM
I have a request for a couple of different items with an NFL logo on them. While I know that these logos are copyrighted, I know that I could not apply for an NFL license as my business is far to small for that. I see items everywhere that use copyrighted logos (swap meets, craft shows...) so I know that people use them. Have many of you done such business and is there a feasible route to gain approval from the governing bodies ?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Mike Null
02-20-2014, 11:59 AM
Don

I refuse such business unless the customer has a legitimate letter of permission. I haven't seen one yet so I haven't done logos of that type.

People who ask you to this are, at least in my view, cheapskates who know better.

There are a number of businesses who will come after you for using their logo without proper authorization. Pro sports teams especially.

Mark Sipes
02-20-2014, 12:48 PM
and Harley Davidson

Ross Moshinsky
02-20-2014, 12:59 PM
You shouldn't market an item that sells because of the logo. If you make a Cowboys plaque that only sells because it has the Cowboys name on it, you're living in the wrong.

If you have a customer walk in and wants an item personalized with just the Cowboys logo because he's a big fan, you're living in the wrong but it's a one off and you're not marketing the service. Still wrong, but less wrong.

If you have a customer walk in and they want an item personalized and it's for this and that and the logo plays a small role in the item's presentation.... you get the picture hopefully.

The reality is you have to use your best judgement.

Bruce Clumpner
02-20-2014, 1:43 PM
Don,

By even talking about it here, in this forum, the Logo Police will pick it up and put you on their radar.. The BIG brands hire folks just to troll the search engines and chase every dime, er...unauthorized use. I wouldn't chance it, especially if you have a retail storefront. There's just too much to loose.

But sometimes, for small items in small runs, it just might work out to apply for a license if you want to pursue it. I produce items for 5 licensed schools and pay around 10-15% of gross for the privilege. It kinda works out in the end, but does add another layer to the bookkeeping.

Good Luck.

Gary Hair
02-20-2014, 3:05 PM
Either I misunderstood the OP or everyone else did... I think everyone thought he was asking how to get away with it when I think he was asking how to do it right. I don't have that answer but I think people should reread his post before jumping on him.

Jim Dawson
02-20-2014, 3:07 PM
the quick safe answer is don't do it…. its not worth the hassle or losing your business.

Bert Kemp
02-20-2014, 3:29 PM
I agree with Grayhair, he's not asking how to cheat the system, he's asking how to get approval from the governing body, in this case the Cowboys.

If it were me I would email the Cowboys Office explain to them what you wanted to do, the size of your business so they would know your small fish, and just ask for their approval with an email stating such approval. Maybe offer them 15 or 20% of the sale from your customer. The worst that can happen is they say no . What have you got to lose? Heres how to contact them

http://forms.dallascowboys.com/contact_us.cfm

Bert Kemp
02-20-2014, 3:36 PM
the quick safe answer is don't do it…. its not worth the hassle or losing your business.

I really don't think anyone would lose their business over this unless you continued to be an offender.
Most likely you would get a formal letter to quit doing it with the threat of legal action if it continued.

Dan Hintz
02-20-2014, 3:51 PM
The short and skinny is "You won't get approval". The agencies are only looking for people willing to play ball (no pun intended), which means signing contracts, paying the licensing fees, etc. It is not worth their time to deal with one-offs (and legally they can't allow that anyway), so unless you can step up to the plate and pay the big bucks, don't waste your time.

Politely convince the customer they want something else or turn them away.

Mike Null
02-20-2014, 4:05 PM
Gary

I don't see anybody jumping on him. I see advice that generally says "it's a waste of time".

Dave Sheldrake
02-20-2014, 6:03 PM
I really don't think anyone would lose their business over this unless you continued to be an offender.
Most likely you would get a formal letter to quit doing it with the threat of legal action if it continued.

You would be surprised Bert, recently an infraction here cost a small seller £150,000 in litigation plus their own legal costs. It cost them their livelihood, their home and their future. All that over less than £100 worth of merchandise.

Some big companies will just send a C&D, some will always take punitive action. A lot depends on the company, one I do a lot of contract work for has a general policy of always bringing suit, no exceptions.

cheers

Dave

Bert Kemp
02-20-2014, 7:31 PM
[QUOTE=Dave Sheldrake;2228822]You would be surprised Bert, recently an infraction here cost a small seller £150,000 in litigation plus their own legal costs. It cost them their livelihood, their home and their future. All that over less than £100 worth of merchandise.

Some big companies will just send a C&D, some will always take punitive action. A lot depends on the company, one I do a lot of contract work for has a general policy of always bringing suit, no exceptions.

cheers
Dave


I think maybe the laws are more strict in the UK
Maybe not but I know a guy who made several Items with the HD logo on them and tried selling them on Cragslist. Anyone who knows HD will tell you they vigorously protect their logo. They saw his ad's and made contact and asked him to stop, and no further action would be necessary. Didn't even send a C&D. I think HD saw this guy for what he was a small time guy just selling homemade crafts on the side, not someone trying to make a fortune off the HD logo. They didn't want to ruin him just make him stop.

Dee Gallo
02-20-2014, 7:45 PM
Whenever I've had requests like this, I ask the customer to provide me with written permission to use the logo. In 30 years, I've only had two do it, out of hundreds who asked..

Scott Woodson
02-20-2014, 7:49 PM
Don, I pursued getting an MLB license for Orioles items, NFL follows something of a similar nature. Contacted MLB who politely provided me approx 40 pages of legal documents to sign for them to consider granting me a license. If I remember correctly it was up front fee of approximately $40K and then there was royalties on top (based on estimated/vice actual sales). Added fees were calculated based on projected sales figures vice acutal, so you paid the projection regardless if you sold anything. There were many other legal considersations along with exact specifications that were to be followed. Everyone I talked to loved my idea, but in the end IMHO this is why stuff is made in China (no offense intended) where it is manufactured for pennies on the dollar and then costs sooooo much here....royalties. Best of luck if you persue, but as others have said "beware".

Jim Lauer
02-20-2014, 7:55 PM
The logos are all governed through the leagues for the US Pro sports, so ou have to contact the NFL to obtain rights. I sent a request and asked if they had a small business licensing agreement, or a crafters license and all of the major sports leagues (NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB) all said no.

The NCAA uses a clearing house for most of the big schools and they are very strict and have gone after several crafters and businesses in our area.

Be careful like everyone has said. I was at a craft show last fall and someone was making Chevy signs. A disgruntled customer turned them in and GM was there the next day, and took them to court. They lost over $20,000 in fines and court fees plus all of their inventory.

Even the US Military branches now have a licensing agreement for their logos and patches and the seals are strictly forbidden. At least the military licenses are reasonable unlike the sports ones.

We just don't do anything without written permission, it only takes one person to turn you in and losing my business is just not worth it.

Bill Cunningham
02-20-2014, 8:54 PM
This is what I have on my FAQ page...


Can you engrave or etch a sports, or a popular company logo onto something for me?
If 'you' own the logo or 'you' have written permission to use it on the product you want YES.. Otherwise NO.. i.e No I cannot engrave the Harley Davidson Logo, anything from Disney, or any sports team logos onto anything, unless you can show me written permission on the official letterhead of the copyright owner of the image, granting you the permission to use their property on your project. I used Harley and Disney as an example because they are the most asked for images, and those companies have more lawyers and money than God!

Mike Null
02-20-2014, 11:00 PM
Besides royalties and other caveats I have one very large organization that wants me to provide a million dollar liability policy for every logo.

Gee, I can't wait to get started.

Kev Williams
02-21-2014, 12:11 AM
I have in front of me, the 2009 OCA Enterprises catalog of corporate trademarks and logos. This catalog also came with 8 CD's containing every logo in the catalog in full color EPS format. A quick count thru the index netted around 12,000 logos. While they have quite a lengthy disclaimer regarding the legalities of: whether the logo colors are correct; that the user must get authorization to use any of the logos; that the user must hold them harmless from damage related to unauthorized logo use by the user. etc. etc., there is not ONE reference anywhere stating that THEY (OCA) were LICENSED reproduce a single logo, or to even make this catalog. There's a simple reason for this: They're NOT licensed...

So- can anyone explain why I'm not supposed to put a Harley logo on someone's cutting board, but OCA can print 12,000 unlicensed logos and sell them?

Mike Null
02-21-2014, 7:20 AM
Harley Davidson will explain it to you.

Dee Gallo
02-21-2014, 10:39 AM
Kev,

I found this piece of information on-line, maybe the logos are part of this collection:

In September 2004 Clipart deSIGN licensed OCA Enterprises to publish and sell many of its original clipart collections under the OCA brand name.
In April 2005 Clipart deSIGN was approached byCorel Corporation (http://www.corel.com/) to become a major provider of clipart content for the next version of their flagship product CorelDRAW™, which has over 50 million users worldwide.

Dave Sheldrake
02-21-2014, 10:51 AM
More likely HD's lawyers will ;)

One of the companies that may or may not have been mentioned here or elsewhere on SMC is a company I do or do not do contract work for. Even the use of their Name is restricted when people ask me if I have any well known clients according to the paperwork I had to provide to them.

On company copyrights / IP etc quite a few companies are fantastic, simply asking will get results at minimal fee's (from $1 upwards) not asking and assuming tends to end in litigation very quickly.

One copyright license I have cost me $1...yup ONE dollar just because I asked instead of taking,
Another cost me $3,500 to use all of their trade names and IP,
Another wanted 7 figures just to discuss it,

Ironically enough one of the biggest corporations didn't want anything other than one of the finished items as a gift for the Chairman of the board.

cheers

Dave

Craig Matheny
02-22-2014, 1:23 PM
What I find to be very interesting in this conversation is the fact that most engravers and trophy makers break copyright laws daily, every order you take for a little league team, high school or business for plaques or trophies that uses any logo should have a letter of consent to use or technically you are breaking the law. We own an embroidery business and every day we have a broker place an order for clothing with a logo on it and with every first time order we get a letter of consent to use with them. All it takes is the wrong company to get upset and come after you. Is this extreme yes but I can sleep every night knowing good and well our businesses are protected. FYI the license for the little league or the pee wee football for use of the teams logo is for the little league to use them not a release for you to reproduce them.

So in a nut shell you have to be smart in what you do and if your doing stuff for other companies have them sign off that they are the authorized agent for the use of the logo this will protect you in most cases and forget College sports, Disney, HD they will come after you I personally know of a company that did some stuff for one of these companies and lost everything they thought they were smarter than the company with lawyers on payroll.

Dave Sheldrake
02-22-2014, 1:51 PM
Arcadia, Luca*****, Dis***, H*,

don't even think of their name without consent, they have deep pockets and an aweful LOT of lawyers who will run you round the courts for 10 years just for jollys before taking everything you own.

cheers

Dave

Scott Shepherd
02-22-2014, 2:04 PM
with every first time order we get a letter of consent to use with them. All it takes is the wrong company to get upset and come after you. Is this extreme yes but I can sleep every night knowing good and well our businesses are protected.

Have you checked with an IP lawyer about that? I saw it explained recently in a way that opened my eyes. I always thought having someone sign the agreement that says they have the rights to have you make the item protected you just fine. Then a saw someone say "If someone came into your shop and asked you to print money, and you said sign this document telling me you have the rights to do that", and they did, do you think you'd go to jail for printing the money if it were traced back to you? Short answer. Yes, you would. If someone wants to copy something that you tell them is illegal, do you think they'll hesitate to sign whatever it is they need to sign to get it made?

It made me rethink my whole strategy on handling that type of stuff. I thought we were protected too. Now, I think not. Maybe you spoke to a lawyer and he advised you differently, but I'd have to have it in writing from a lawyer before I'd believe I was protected now.

Mark Ross
03-04-2014, 11:52 AM
Yeah Harley is pretty touchy. They have a copyright on the "sound" that the motors emit on their hogs.

And whatever you do...

Don't engrave a logo on a brick! LOL (Reference to the famous "patented brick" thread that refuses to die quietly)...

Kev Williams
03-04-2014, 2:34 PM
As for printing money (lol), there are laws regarding 'implied consent' etc, for such instances, such as you can't prosecute a door-to-door salesman for trespass if you don't have a fence nor a 'No Trespassing' sign, but if someone is found wandering around your yard at night, he may be guilty of trespass, depending on his intent... or how movie stars can't sue over certain instances that "normal people" can sue over, because of their "celebrity" status. Kind of a 'common knowledge' thing I guess... You wouldn't be protected for printing money just because someone has a paper that says it's okay, because you already know you can't print money. But if you perform a job for someone in good faith, believing the permission granted you was genuine but turns out not to be, the courts will be more interested in who gave you false permission. All you did was perform a service requested by a customer, with no intent to infringe on anyone's rights.

"Intent" is key...

And of course, it's all up to the judge... ;)




===================

Scott Shepherd
03-04-2014, 3:44 PM
As for printing money (lol), there are laws regarding 'implied consent' etc, for such instances, such as you can't prosecute a door-to-door salesman for trespass if you don't have a fence nor a 'No Trespassing' sign, but if someone is found wandering around your yard at night, he may be guilty of trespass, depending on his intent... or how movie stars can't sue over certain instances that "normal people" can sue over, because of their "celebrity" status. Kind of a 'common knowledge' thing I guess... You wouldn't be protected for printing money just because someone has a paper that says it's okay, because you already know you can't print money. But if you perform a job for someone in good faith, believing the permission granted you was genuine but turns out not to be, the courts will be more interested in who gave you false permission. All you did was perform a service requested by a customer, with no intent to infringe on anyone's rights.

"Intent" is key...

And of course, it's all up to the judge... ;)




===================

I have been told since this conversation that what typically will happen is they will follow the money. If they go after the original person that told you it was okay and they don't have anything, then they're moving to you to see if you have any. Bottom line, they want money and they'll get it from whoever has it and they'll make life miserable for everyone that touched the job. I can do without that in my life. The thought of having to go to court and pay lawyers to defend it at $350 per hour vs. the money we'd have made on the job puts things into perspective enough for me.

Dave Sheldrake
03-04-2014, 4:36 PM
Over here "Intent" has nothing to do with it, it's more a case of "did you or didn't you" with that being enough to lose most cases.

cheers

Dave

Mike Null
03-04-2014, 4:43 PM
I think that's the case here as well. It's fairly rare to hear of professional engravers running afoul of the law but certainly other businesses have been brought to task with some frequency. I concur with whoever said it that cease and desist letters are more common than suits but the law is the law and it's not worth challenging.

My first question to the customer is "do you have a letter of authorization". The answer has always been no and that has been my answer as well. Actually the answer usually is "well I just wanted to do something for my boyfriend".

Kev Williams
03-04-2014, 8:00 PM
Sorry, but I can't resist.... How about a piece of the actual law that pertains to this discussion? My comments within in bold.

First up, notice the title contains the words "innocent infringers".



TITLE VI
-
REMEDIES
§
32 (15 U.S.C. §
1114). Remedies; infringement; innocent infringers
(1) Any person who shall, without the consent of the registrant

(a) use in commerce any reproduction, counterfeit, copy, or colorable imitation of a registered
mark in connection with the sale, offering for sale, distribution, or advertising of any goods or
services on or in connection with which such use is likely to cause confusion, or to cause
mistake, or to deceive; or
(b) reproduce, counterfeit, copy or colorably imitate a registered mark and apply such
reproduction, counterfeit, copy or colorable imitation to labels, signs, prints, packages,
wrappers, receptacles or advertisements intended to be used in commerce upon or in
connection with the sale, offering for sale, distribution, or advertising of goods or services on
or in connection with which such use is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to
deceive, shall be liable in a civil action by the registrant for the remedies hereinafter provided. Under
subsection (b) hereof, the registrant shall not be entitled to recover profits or damages unless the
acts have been committed with knowledge that such imitation is intended to be used to cause
confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive.

(The law is clear that an 'actual' infringer's INTENT is to CAUSE CONFUSION or
to CREATE DECEPTION, and doing so makes you liable.
It's also clear that the trademark holder cannot recover profits
or damages unless they can prove deception...)

As used in this paragraph, the term “any person” includes the United
States, all agencies and instrumentalities thereof, and all individuals, firms, corporations, or other persons
acting for the United States and with the authorization and consent of the United States, and any State, any
instrumentality of a State, and any
officer or employee of a State or instrumentality of a State
acting in his or her official capacity. The United States, all agencies and instrumentalities thereof,
and all individuals, firms, corporations, other persons acting for the United States and with the
authorization and consent of the United States, and any State, and any such instrumentality,
officer, or employee, shall be subject to the provisions of this chapter in the same manner and to
the same extent as any nongovernmental entity.

(The above simply states that no one is above this law)

(2) Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the remedies given to the owner of a right
infringed under this chapter or to a person bringing an action under section 1125(a) or (d) of this
title shall be limited as follows:
(A) Where an infringer or violator is engaged solely in the business of printing the mark or
violating matter for others and establishes that he or she was an innocent infringer or innocent
violator, the owner of the right infringed or person bringing the action under section 1125(a) of
this title shall be entitled as against such infringer or violator only to an injunction against
future printing.

(The above is pretty clear- If I print or engrave a logo for someone at
their request, and they provide authorization to do so, then I've established
that I'm an "innocent infringer", and subject to being told not to do so again...)

---- which is a far cry from zillion dollar fines and taking your first born.

Of course, others may interpret this differently. The above is excerpts from pages 207/208 of the 256 pages of the US Trademark law PDF, which can be found at the link below...

http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/law/tmlaw.pdf

Scott Shepherd
03-04-2014, 8:06 PM
Kev, I think you are missing the point. It might be perfectly legal, but if lawyers from Harley start the ball rolling against me, even if I'm perfectly legal, it's going to bankrupt me just trying to defend myself. I might be right, and I might win, but once I do, I'm out of business from the legal fees to defend myself. I think that's where their power plays come into the equation.

Personally, I'm not willing to even enter the arena. You might be, but I'm not.

Kev Williams
03-04-2014, 8:15 PM
Hey, I realize none of us has the money to fight off some huge company. But I'm happy knowing the law is actually on our side, even if we'll never get any benefit from it.

Bill Cunningham
03-04-2014, 8:27 PM
And whatever you do...

Don't engrave a logo on a brick! LOL (Reference to the famous "patented brick" thread that refuses to die quietly)...

Ha.. LaserSketch (http://lasersketch.com/) will sell you the brick, and give you a .pdf of the technique to engrave bricks with a 35 watt CO2 laser.. Just ask them..

Mark Smith61
03-04-2014, 8:33 PM
Don, many years ago I worked for a company that policed the market for certain copyrighted items. After working for them I got back into law enforcement and worked for a District Attorney and we worked quite a few cases involving counterfeit merchandise. So I do have experience in the enforcement arena. To answer the question of why you see so many copyrighted items being sold? It's because even though there is an enforcement effort, they can't catch them all, and actually only a small handful gets caught. In law enforcement it was the very rare occasion when we would take enforcement action and usually then only if one of the trade associations funded the operation. For example the Motion Picture Association will give money to law enforcement to fund officers on overtime to go out and look for pirated DVD's.

Most groups that own copyrights, such as the NFL and MLB, use private investigators to police the market looking for counterfeit merchandise. These private investigators (what I used to do) don't get paid by the NFL or MLB to do this work. They make their money by finding violators and then working up a civil case on those violators. Their law firms will then either file civil suits or in the vast majority of cases will reach some type of out of court settlement. Back when I was doing this in the late 80's, the standard settlement when we caught somebody violating a copyright was pay $2,500, turn over to us any other merchandise in your possession, and sign an agreement letter stating you'll never do it again. The vast majority of people settled. The reason I tell you how it operates is so you may understand who they are going to go after. If I were still doing this work, I would be going after people who I know have assets and who I know are going to settle and I'll get paid quickly for my work. That is not the people in the flee markets or the guys on the side of the road selling stuff from their van. That is people who have businesses and use forums like this who I would likely target.

$2500 was the standard settlement 25 years ago. My guess is now it's at least $5000. If you don't settle they would likely take you to small claims court to make for an easy case. And like you said, it's not easy to get approval to create copyrighted merchandise. I looked into with Harley-Davidson and they have extremely strict criteria on what their logo is allowed to go on. A small business can't meet their criteria. But if you want to buy a tattoo gun and tattoo Harley logo's on peoples arms, then Harley doesn't require a license for that. They love the tattoo's.

And as a side note, if you have a copyrighted item or a trademarked logo, you are actually required to make an effort at policing the market for violators. If you don't, you could actually lose your trademark.

And also even though a lot of us use the work copyright and trademark interchangeably, mostly what we are talking about here with sports team logos are Trademarks.