Shinto rasp info wanted

[Derek Cohen]

I am interested to hear from those with experience using a Shinto rasp, particularly along with Auriou rasps. The Shinto is the one made of saw blades.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Images/products/600/151297.jpg

Specifically, is it capable of wasting wood across the grain really fast? I am considering it for my chair build, for the initial, rough removal in shaping the thick, hard Jarrah backrest - to bring it down in thickness, essentially as an alternative to a bandsaw (I am trying to stay with handtools here).

I have Auriou rasps (the coarsest is a 10 grain) - so I am curious how this compares and where it fits in the coarseness ratings?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Hughto]

I don't know about the shinto, but when shaping a backrest, I have found that drawknives and spokeshaves were good even in hard maple. Also, surprisingly useful were Surform type rasps: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/stanley-10-surform-round-file-blade.aspx

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Sean

I agree. I do plan on using spokeshaves - they are the mainstay of shaping. I am a little unsure about a drawknife - how well I can control the curving cuts needed in the Jarrah (I have just one drawknife, with a flat blade). Consequently I am just exploring other options. The Shinto came to mind. It looks to have potential - something to roughly shape the outline before bringing spokeshaves in. I just do not know if it is fast, or no faster than my Auriou 10 grain.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Do the old nicholson's coarse rasps show up there (with "made in USA" on them, of course?).

when I first started woodworking, I ran across a bunch from walt Q and bought them. I still haven't used them for anything because they're too coarse, and I don't make much furniture - esp not of that type.

But if you had to remove material fast, they would do it. And they're cheap.

[Prashun Patel]

I briefly used a Shinto rasp at a friend's. I didn't feel that it was any more aggressive than the coarsest rasps. It's a different feel, so the ergonomics might appeal to you, but aggressive shaping will be IMHO about as taxing as a rasp.

I'm with Sean wrt using a draw knife (or even a chopping tool like an adze for rougher removal).

I know you are trying to stay with hand tools on this, but if you are not above cheating a little (as with the lathe) then I would highly consider using a right angle grinder with a carbide grinding wheel. It was made for this kind of carving. While it has a power cord, it requires every bit of control, feel, and skill you'd required of an acoustic tool.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Prashun

Thanks for the description of the Shinto in use.

No grinder (it did cross my mind) :) . I could use the bandsaw, but I would prefer to find a handtool to do rough shaping.

Incidentally, the lathe was not cheating, even a little. The shaping is done with chisels, not by the rotation under power. Do you consider this any different to a spring lathe, or a foot powered mortice chisel?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Hughto]

I always think this is an interestig question - electrons as "cheating." My experience is that it is speed and risk that are the key determinants and often make the difference in results, moreso than electrons. Walking somewhere and driving somewhere leave quite different impressions on your senses and mind. The art creeps in through the hand and eye working in unison coupled with each maker's personality.

[Prashun Patel]

I didn't realize about the lathe. :). I'm even more impressed.

[Brian Holcombe]

Bow saw maybe?

neander or otherwise I have my designs on a minimax or similar bandsaw.

[glenn bradley]

I was very surprised at how versatile the Shinto rasp turned out to be. I got it for fast stock removal but, found it quite useful on things like "Maloof" legs and the like.

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I also use one to rasp to a line using a block of wood on the workbench as a reference surface. Let me see if I can find a picture to help describe that better . . . OK, this is just using the technique to square out corners on a template for a box top but, I think it explains what I mean. The broad surface of the Shinto rests on the block which rests on the bench which controls the depth of cut. The block and the Shinto move back and forth (I wear a glove when actually doing this as opposed to posing for pictures) and cut on the piece that is held in the vise. When the cutting stops, you are at depth ;-)

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[Derek Cohen]

I always think this is an interestig question - electrons as "cheating." My experience is that it is speed and risk that are the key determinants and often make the difference in results, moreso than electrons. Walking somewhere and driving somewhere leave quite different impressions on your senses and mind. The art creeps in through the hand and eye working in unison coupled with each maker's personality.

Well said Sean

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks, Derek. If all it took to make great furniture was power tools, there would be lots more great furniture. Great furniture is a confluence of design, material, and execution, not to mention inspiration, sincerity, perseverence, and luck. Use whatever it takes to get there, my friends!

[Jack Curtis]

I can't really compare the Shinto to Auriou since we've only got a round Auriou which wouldn't be used the same way on the same item under the same conditions. Also, our Shinto has a handle above that the two displayed here don't, and that handle provides a lot of purchase to the right places (look here http://www.japanwoodworker.com/category/12881/shinto-saw-rasps.aspx?gclid=CLr3lqLX2LwCFSFo7Aoduw0AVw at the second rasp shown). It's the first rasp I use for initial rounding/shaping and it does that very quickly and not too coarsely; but it's never been the last tool used before final smoothing/shaping. I think it's an outstanding first stepper because it doesn't wear out like normal rasps and there are replacement blades. Also, you can sharpen the saw blades just like saws.

PS I said Auriou and round together very casually. By round I meant round as if the file had been bent (pretty sure it was) into a round shape, not merely rounded side/sides.

[bridger berdel]

I have a big rasp made for farriers to work on horse's hooves. it might work for what you're doing

[Jim Koepke]

I have a big rasp made for farriers to work on horse's hooves. it might work for what you're doing

Bridger beat me to this suggestion. I have been tempted at times to purchase a farriers' rasp on occasion while at one of the local feed stores.

jtk

[Dave Anderson NH]

Derek, Don't be afraid of the drawknife. With a small back bevel and a light touch until you feel comfortable with it, it is a great tool for removing stock quickly. A couple of years ago I took a 3" x 3" x 24" blank of hard maple to a hand tools class I was teaching. I did most of a cabriole leg with a drawknife, a spokeshave, and a full size crosscut saw. This minimize the use of a rasp. The crosscut was used for the post which contained the M&T joints, but more importantly it made stop cuts at various places along the leg which defined the maximum depth the drawknife would work to reach. As a side benefit, the stop cuts also will prevent removing too much stock if you experience grain runout. If I remember correctly I also used a 1 1/2" wide chisel as a companion to the drawknife for gross stock removal. If you are worried, try a little practice on some scrap stock. Save rasping for the finer shaping and for hard to reach areas.

[Jim Matthews]

I feel that a rasp is coarsest, followed by the Microplane and lastly the Shinto rasp.

The Shinto rasp teeth cut in either direction, so there's little shearing.
I get mostly fine sawdust off the workpiece with the Shinto.

What I like best is the version with the raised handle.

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[James Taglienti]

+1 what Dave said- I'd crosscut depth stop lines to within 1/8" or so of the desired shape and chop off the waste with a chisel, then finish with rasp/compass plane/card scraper

[Matt Lau]

I don't have the Auroui, but tried them. The shinto rasp is cheap, sort of smooth, can be aggressive if used a certain way--I like it. However, it's no Liogier. It's not that great for compound curves, where I'd prefer rasps for. Get one. Try it out. It should be about $30 at max.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Derek, just get one from Stu as they're only AUD $19 and you can stock up on some other goodies.

[Fred Taylor]

I have a Shinto, several hand stitched rasps and two Nicholsons. The Shinto is pretty aggressive, but I don't find it as easy to control as other rasps, certainly not as much touch with it as with an Auriou. The shinto has some degree of flex in it. Sometimes a plus, sometimes a minus. The one I have is 30+ years old and is still sharp. It leaves a pretty rough cut, so follow up with a finer rasp is essential. I would say my Shinto is much courser than my nine grain Auriou, but not quite as aggressive as the four grain Liogier I just bought. The Liogier is easier to control for me. Others may feel differently about how the Shinto compares to hand-stitched rasps. I have not done any side by side tests. Hope that helps.

[lowell holmes]

I thought that bench was too clean. You obviously cleaned it for the pictures.

:)

[george wilson]

At my age,I use whatever I can find to ease the task. Too many worn out joints. But,as Derek said,the important thing is the mentality you can put into the work: Design and taste. Making a piece completely by hand will add nothing to a poorly designed piece that also is in poor taste. I have seen many a hand made piece that is just plain BAD.

By nature,many of the things I make,like acoustic guitars and violins,must be done by hand. But,I have seen a lot of guitars that are just ugly!!

[Mike Holbrook]

I'm on my second Shinto. First one got left outside and rusted. I use the one with a handle in the middle. The teeth on the two sides are different too, flip it from coarse to fine. I use my Shinto mostly for construction type work as it leaves a rough surface. I can do everything I need with the one (double sided) Shinto. I have Micro planes, Gramercy Rasps and Iwasaki rasps.

I like the Iwasakis (also available at Highland Woodworking) best for fine woodworking. The Iwasakis make something more like shavings than sawdust. The micro planes are even faster on soft wood but leave a rougher surface.

I was just using my Iwasakis to do final fitting of my adze head to a handle I made for it. I did the major part of the work with drawknives and spokeshaves though, as several other people have mentioned.

[Tony Shea]

I also have been using the Iwasakis a lot, and when used a certain way can be very aggressive. With a slightly different touch they can actually produce a pretty smooth surface as well. Another option that is fairly inexpensive are the micro plane rasps. For the price, these rasps can do some serious work. But for finer work Im sure you know there aren't anything better in use than the Auriou's or Liogiers!

[Chris Griggs]

Tony what "coarseness" are your Iwasakis? I find that my xxfine Iwasaki is faster and leaves a finer surface than my 13 grain Auriou. The Auriou though is a little easier to control and use especially in various grain directions, but in terms of surface quality its I find that nothing beats a few light swipes with the grain using an Iwasaki.

[Derek Cohen]

Just a comment.

I spend a little time sharpening up an 8" Jennings draw knife until it was razor sharp. It sliced through the Tasmanian Oak I first tested it on. Then I tried it on a Jarrah offcut from the chair build. Ha Ha Ha ....

OK, a draw knife is not an option.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

My experience with the microplanes is that they flex too much to be used for aggressive work. Their price and contours make them good for insife corners. Derek, are you averse to using some kind of coping saw to do the rough work and then rasps and shaves to finish?