Building Drawers

[George Bokros]

Going to be building some drawers soon. I am undecided on how to handle the bottoms.

Option 1: Capture the bottom in a dado only in the front and sides nailing the bottom to the back

Option 2: Capture the bottom in a dado in the front, sides and back

You thoughts

Thanks

George

[Jim Rimmer]

#1 is my choice

[Myk Rian]

I choose door number 2.

[Matt Meiser]

I don't get why #1 is even done? Invariably the bottoms of commercially made drawers like this fall out, even "good" furniture made years ago. I always do #2, as did the company that built my kitchen drawers for me.

[Bradley Gray]

The only reason to do #1 would be to facilitate finishing after assembly.

[Larry Browning]

#1 is usually the right choice, because it allows the bottom to be easily replaced if it gets broken or damaged. However, if the drawer is to carry lots of weight having the slot in all 4 sides will provide more support, but will make replacing the bottom much more difficult.

[glenn bradley]

I didn't vote because I didn't want to skew your results. For plywood boxes and bottom I capture the bottom and often add a bit of glue as well. There is no need to allow for movement so I have no concerns. Similarly I will capture a plywood bottom in a hardwood box with the grain all running parallel to the bottom surface. For hardwood bottoms I usually dado/groove the front and sides and use one or two screws (depending on width) at the back in a slot to allow for movement.

[Bruce Page]

I use a modified version of 1 and screw the bottom to the back . The drawer bottom can be easily replaced or repaired and it reduces my glue-up stress :o . This method does not work well on shallow drawers where you need that ¾” of drawer length.

[Jerry Olexa]

#2 my choice

[Pat Barry]

#1 is usually the right choice, because it allows the bottom to be easily replaced if it gets broken or damaged. However, if the drawer is to carry lots of weight having the slot in all 4 sides will provide more support, but will make replacing the bottom much more difficult.
I don't get it Larry. Usually the bottom comes loose in the back and thats why the bottom needs to be re-done. Anyway, I do number 2 because the setup to do the sides and back is the same in order to make the groove. I also do half blind dovetails or box joints front and back. Of course, I use plywood bottoms and try not to skimp on thickness

[Sam Murdoch]

I prefer #1 but like Bruce P. I use screws in my 1/2" or 5/8" thick back - not nails - have never had any issue with coming apart. When using Blum undermounts this method eliminates the need for the back notches. It certainly makes assembly easier and yes indeed it makes the finish work easier and better too.

[Mark Bolton]

Sorry :rolleyes:, but.. can I honestly ask who in the heck has ever in their lives replaced a drawer bottom from damage? And how often? Also how many have had a well constructed, non dovetailed, slid in bottom, drawer box fall apart? Beyond that, the entire question hinges on a multitude of factors. Is it a period reproduction? Is this an heirloom piece? Is it a bathroom vanity? Is it a set of kitchen cabinets? Shop cabinets?

I, and most of the shops I know, have been building slid in bottoms for as long as I can remember. Is it right for some of the above? No. Is it wrong for some of the above? Yes.

The simple fact of the matter is the vast majority of individuals care very little about such details and thats because it adds or takes away nothing from the final product. Of course in this depression-like recession weve been so painfully suffering through everyone is so wealthy of heart to think dovetailed drawers are an "upgrade" when they really arent. Plain ol' well constructed drawers have lasted just as long for the majority of homes out there. And now were thinking 4 side captive bottoms are necessary? Or slide in bottoms are necessary for damage? Or one is better than the other? Does Kraft Maid or Diamond ship a half dozen replacement drawer bottoms with your order? Oy vey. No offense to Matt or Larry.

To me the bottom line is whichever floats your boat but neither is inherently better than the other. Because they arent. Its simply dependent on your work flow and assembly routine. The anal retentive people who build their shop cabinets like an 18th century reproduction highboy will say captive bottoms are essential merely because they are unable or unwilling to down-shift. And the other how many ever percent will say slid in because its the norm, faster, easier.

Both are fine, however if your trying in any way to be productive/profitable only one will get you a vacation day.

Nothing against George, but I wonder what the archives have on the subject? :D

P.S., since Ive been up and running its been dovetail (because I think they are pretty) with slid in bottoms, nailed at the back.

[Larry Browning]

I don't get it Larry. Usually the bottom comes loose in the back and thats why the bottom needs to be re-done. Anyway, I do number 2 because the setup to do the sides and back is the same in order to make the groove. I also do half blind dovetails or box joints front and back. Of course, I use plywood bottoms and try not to skimp on thickness
What I was thinking of, is if the bottom gets busted or broken and it needs to be replaced, you don't have to take the whole drawer apart to replace the bottom. If it comes loose at the back, just re-nail it or put some screws in.

Also, +1 to what Mark B. posted. At the end of the day it just comes down to what ever floats you boat. Neither one is wrong, just do what ever makes you feel better about it.

[Keith Hankins]

I did not vote, because I don't nail but I do use a groove all the way around and cut the back off, sliding in the bottom and I use a brass screw in the back with a slot in the bottom to allow for movement. I do this in case something ever needs to be changed or fixed, it can easily be removed. I'm sure a nail would work as well just I don't do it that way.

[George Bokros]

I must comment. I started this poll to get some opinions and have received them and appreciate them. When I built my shop cabinets I used 1/2" BB for sides and bottoms and built them using option #1, The new project, an apothecary cabinet for the wife, I am using 1/2" soft maple for the drawer boxes and plan to use 1/4" BB for the bottom. Full capture in a dado will provide more support for the bottom even though there will never be anything heavy in the drawers.

Again thanks for participating in the poll and for your opinions.

George

[Mark Carlson]

I do the same as glenn. If using hardwood bottoms I dont trap the back and use screws in slots.


I didn't vote because I didn't want to skew your results. For plywood boxes and bottom I capture the bottom and often add a bit of glue as well. There is no need to allow for movement so I have no concerns. Similarly I will capture a plywood bottom in a hardwood box with the grain all running parallel to the bottom surface. For hardwood bottoms I usually dado/groove the front and sides and use one or two screws (depending on width) at the back in a slot to allow for movement.

[Matt Meiser]

Never a damaged bottom--the nails pull out at the back allowing small stuff to fall out. Nails get replaced with bigger nails, new nails in new locations and eventually the whole thing is swiss cheese. Our original cabinets. My parents. Old desk drawers. Old dresser drawers. Granted these were more flexible bottoms made from hardboard, particle board, older, thin plywood etc that aren't as good as say baltic birch I might use or a real hardwood bottom.

[Mark Bolton]

Never a damaged bottom--the nails pull out at the back allowing small stuff to fall out. Nails get replaced with bigger nails, new nails in new locations and eventually the whole thing is swiss cheese. Our original cabinets. My parents. Old desk drawers. Old dresser drawers. Granted these were more flexible bottoms made from hardboard, particle board, older, thin plywood etc that aren't as good as say baltic birch I might use or a real hardwood bottom.

You see? This is my point? "Granted these were more flexible bottoms made from hardboard, particle board, older, thin plywood etc that aren't as good as say baltic birch". This is unfairly applying the days of old to _all_ of today. Other than perhaps big lots I dont think ive seen a hardwood bottom in years. Beyond that, anyone who buys or uses them deserves what they get. Most often our bottoms are full 1/4" ply minimum and more often 1/2".

I mean no offense, but this logic is fine when you dont have to account for anything. But when it gets applied to the real world (dovetails are a perfect example) it simply costs everyone more.

[Peter Quinn]

Solid bottom panel......#1

Plywood panel.....#2.....Unless the drawer is assembled with sliding dovetails sides to front and back to sides....in that case you can't actually assemble the drawer with a captured bottom.

[Peter Quinn]

You see? This is my point? "Granted these were more flexible bottoms made from hardboard, particle board, older, thin plywood etc that aren't as good as say baltic birch". This is unfairly applying the days of old to _all_ of today. Other than perhaps big lots I dont think ive seen a hardwood bottom in years. Beyond that, anyone who buys or uses them deserves what they get. Most often our bottoms are full 1/4" ply minimum and more often 1/2".

I mean no offense, but this logic is fine when you dont have to account for anything. But when it gets applied to the real world (dovetails are a perfect example) it simply costs everyone more.

I worked for some time for a gentleman who got his start making custom furniture, he was a bit of a purist (and an antiques collector), when we made things for his house during slow periods in the shop, he insisted on solid bottoms, often pine or poplar, which would have been secondary woods 150+ years ago. For the commercial stuff it was 1/4"-1/2" plywood bottoms, captured and hot melt glued in to eliminate any rattle. I found the solid bottoms were a durable and elegant way to finish a drawer, you can run them long, nothing is ever going to fall out the back if properly built. Ours were typically 5/8" heavy raised panels, raise to the bottom. You may find solid bottoms on the lowest level of cabinetry, but around my way you also find them on the highest level of bespoke commission cabinetry as well. Its anything but a compromise if done correctly. In my own kitchen...BB bottoms, sides, fronts and backs too! Edge banded the top edges, few coats of lacquer....who cares! Work horse, not a show pony. Shaker side table in my living room.......solid raised panel bottom, just cause! I don't care how many remote controls and pencils for crosswords you put in that little 2" deep drawer, the 5/8" thick poplar bottom is not going to fail!

[Keith Mathewson]

Sorry :rolleyes:, but.. can I honestly ask who in the heck has ever in their lives replaced a drawer bottom from damage? And how often? Also how many have had a well constructed, non dovetailed, slid in bottom, drawer box fall apart? Beyond that, the entire question hinges on a multitude of factors. Is it a period reproduction? Is this an heirloom piece? Is it a bathroom vanity? Is it a set of kitchen cabinets? Shop cabinets?

I, and most of the shops I know, have been building slid in bottoms for as long as I can remember. Is it right for some of the above? No. Is it wrong for some of the above? Yes.

The simple fact of the matter is the vast majority of individuals care very little about such details and thats because it adds or takes away nothing from the final product. Of course in this depression-like recession weve been so painfully suffering through everyone is so wealthy of heart to think dovetailed drawers are an "upgrade" when they really arent. Plain ol' well constructed drawers have lasted just as long for the majority of homes out there. And now were thinking 4 side captive bottoms are necessary? Or slide in bottoms are necessary for damage? Or one is better than the other? Does Kraft Maid or Diamond ship a half dozen replacement drawer bottoms with your order? Oy vey. No offense to Matt or Larry.

To me the bottom line is whichever floats your boat but neither is inherently better than the other. Because they arent. Its simply dependent on your work flow and assembly routine. The anal retentive people who build their shop cabinets like an 18th century reproduction highboy will say captive bottoms are essential merely because they are unable or unwilling to down-shift. And the other how many ever percent will say slid in because its the norm, faster, easier.

Both are fine, however if your trying in any way to be productive/profitable only one will get you a vacation day.

Nothing against George, but I wonder what the archives have on the subject? :D

P.S., since Ive been up and running its been dovetail (because I think they are pretty) with slid in bottoms, nailed at the back.


Mark's points are very valid and for the vast majority of cabinetry it doesn't make any difference. If appearance is a factor then it is done for that reason and none other. If it is done for appearance than dovetailed drawers are a beautiful option and handout dovetails are much more attractive than machine cut but one is not stronger than the other. For yourself or the right customer it is a definite up sell, at which point you may want to consider drawer slips instead of dado'ed sides.

[mreza Salav]

If you want to use blum tandem slides #1 is much easier to install this way (instead of notching the back). I think both methods are fine otherwise.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark's points are very valid and for the vast majority of cabinetry it doesn't make any difference. If appearance is a factor then it is done for that reason and none other. If it is done for appearance than dovetailed drawers are a beautiful option and handout dovetails are much more attractive than machine cut but one is not stronger than the other. For yourself or the right customer it is a definite up sell, at which point you may want to consider drawer slips instead of dado'ed sides.

Sickeningly beautiful drawers. Very nice.

[John T Barker]

I voted no#1 as I have made more of them than I can count as has every woodworker I ever worked with because it is THE way to make a quality drawer. If you make them right nothing goes wrong with them. If you have a need for something with plywood in it that looks like something with plywood in it (yech) then that is the time you use no#2. Things that are time honored and classic have usually earned the right to be called as such. Those that need to cut corners because that is what you do in the 20/21st century will rot in hell and rightly so.

[Peter Kelly]

Number 1. As others have mentioned, it makes more sense if you're using under-mount slides. Glue the sides front and back together, allow to cure, remove clamps, slide the bottom in, check for square and secure with washer head screws. Basically a smaller version of building a frameless euro box.

[Pat Barry]

I voted no#1 as I have made more of them than I can count as has every woodworker I ever worked with because it is THE way to make a quality drawer. If you make them right nothing goes wrong with them. If you have a need for something with plywood in it that looks like something with plywood in it (yech) then that is the time you use no#2. Things that are time honored and classic have usually earned the right to be called as such. Those that need to cut corners because that is what you do in the 20/21st century will rot in hell and rightly so.
John, could you expound a bit more on THE way to make a quality drawer? For example, do you go with hand cut dovetails for the front to side connection? Do you go with false fronts? How do you attach the sides to the back, are those nailed also? What woods do you recommend for the drawer sides, back and bottoms? Do you recommend bottom panels that are raised panels? Would appreciate hearing more of your wisdom on this topic. Thanks

[Erik Christensen]

all my drawers are 3/4" solid wood sides with half-blind dovetails - 1/2" combo core hardwood plywood bottom with dado's in all 4 sides (#2) with bottom glued in the dado's. With blum undermount slides all the load is on the bottom anyway and this design has been bomb-proof for me.

[Larry Browning]

all my drawers are 3/4" solid wood sides with half-blind dovetails - 1/2" combo core hardwood plywood bottom with dado's in all 4 sides (#2) with bottom glued in the dado's. With blum undermount slides all the load is on the bottom anyway and this design has been bomb-proof for me.

Wow! 3/4 drawer sides just seems like it would be way too bulky and heavy looking for my taste most of the time. Especially on smaller drawers. Bomb-proof does come to mind.
Or is it Just me?

[Mark Bolton]

Wow! 3/4 drawer sides just seems like it would be way too bulky and heavy looking for my taste most of the time. Especially on smaller drawers. Bomb-proof does come to mind.
Or is it Just me?

Your exactly right Larry. The other problem is any drawer of substantial size the weight of the drawer alone can hog up half your slides rated capacity. On very large drawers we go with 1/2" bottoms but even then with hard maple sides and a front the drawers can get heavy.

We run Grass Dynapro's and they are rated at 88lbs. When your bomb proof drawer box eats up 40+ of those it gets a little sketchy. Of course there is the option to upgrade to the 110lb or 132lb but its not free.

Even 1/2 sides on a well constructed drawer are plenty strong. 3/4" is just crazy unless your storing nails, lead ingots, or of course, bombs.

[George Bokros]

all my drawers are 3/4" solid wood sides with half-blind dovetails - 1/2" combo core hardwood plywood bottom with dado's in all 4 sides (#2) with bottom glued in the dado's. With blum undermount slides all the load is on the bottom anyway and this design has been bomb-proof for me.

3/4" sides is way over kill, what at you putting in them?


George

[George Bokros]

I fail to see where you would want a drawer that weighs 25# empty let alone 40#. The females that would tolerate that must be body builders.

George

[Mark Bolton]

I fail to see where you would want a drawer that weighs 25# empty let alone 40#. The females that would tolerate that must be body builders.

George

In a kitchen setting its not uncommon for a drawer box to get pretty heavy. Take for instance a deep drawer below a cooktop or wall oven. Pots and pans, and so on. Perhaps a drawer that is 30" wide, 21" deep, and 12" tall. The box alone is going to be heavy forget about when you fill it with pots and pans. While you still have to overcome the inertia, quality slides make it very easy.

[Larry Fox]

When I do them I use #2. That said, if you are doing any number of them they get monotonous quickly and for the last kitchen I did I opted for Option 3 and the job went much quicker with no compromise in quality as a result.

Option 3: http://www.newenglanddrawer.com/

[Jeff Duncan]

Hmmm…. I use 3/4" sides all the time! For kitchen cabinetry that's my standard drawer box with a 3/8" bottom screwed in place. If I'm building built-ins then it's usually a 5/8" drawer box same construction and bottoms. If I was building something even lighter….like apothecary drawers, I may go with 1/2" sides. Point being is different applications can utilize different setups. Being a custom guy I build what I feel is best for the project.

As fas as drawer weight goes….for the most part it doesn't really matter. My standard is Blumotion slides so they feel pretty much the same to open and close whether they weigh 20lbs or 40lbs. I can tell you when you load up a drawer with dinner plates and bowls the weight can add up pretty quickly! Of course if I was building a chest of drawers with no mechanical slides involved I would prefer to keep the weight of the drawer on the lighter side.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mark Bolton]

Hmmm…. I use 3/4" sides all the time! For kitchen cabinetry that's my standard drawer box with a 3/8" bottom screwed in place. If I'm building built-ins then it's usually a 5/8" drawer box same construction and bottoms. If I was building something even lighter….like apothecary drawers, I may go with 1/2" sides. Point being is different applications can utilize different setups. Being a custom guy I build what I feel is best for the project.

As fas as drawer weight goes….for the most part it doesn't really matter. My standard is Blumotion slides so they feel pretty much the same to open and close whether they weigh 20lbs or 40lbs. I can tell you when you load up a drawer with dinner plates and bowls the weight can add up pretty quickly! Of course if I was building a chest of drawers with no mechanical slides involved I would prefer to keep the weight of the drawer on the lighter side.

good luck,
JeffD

Yikes,.. no offense but I guess if I were busting banded melamine drawer boxes or something (talk about heavy) but man,.. 3/4" is sides in a kitchen or piece of furniture is a beast. Heck, I dont even build file cabinet drawers 3/4" and you want to talk about weight.. :eek: To me its just visually way to clunky but thats just me. Even 5/8 sides are beefy to me but 3/4 on a silverware drawer would be a monster.

Your point about dinner plates is exactly my point. When you hog up 40-50 percent of the slides rated capacity with the box alone you dont leave a lot for your customer. Most drawers are never loaded that heavy but it can surely happen especially with the move to drawered kitchens as opposed to doors. I guess we invoke the slide manufacturers "safety factor".. Ive been jumping to the 132lb slides when they get wide and deep (which is often).

[Keith Mathewson]

Sickeningly beautiful drawers. Very nice.

Thanks Mark,

I'm surprised that no one has either picked up on or commented on drawer slips. I've built a couple of drawers in my time :) and at no time have I ever felt the need to have a drawer side thicker than 7/16"- I've never had a call back.

[Jeff Duncan]

Yikes,.. no offense but I guess if I were busting banded melamine drawer boxes or something (talk about heavy) but man,.. 3/4" is sides in a kitchen or piece of furniture is a beast.


No offense taken, different strokes…. I on the other hand would look at a 1/2" drawer in a custom kitchen and think it was cheap, especially on say a 28"+ wide pot and pan drawer!….but that's just me:o I don't use melamine in kitchens though, 3/4" veneer core for kitchens and vanities. I do build my kitchens to outlast the owners….kinda rare these days I guess, but it's the way I'm comfortable building things. And an average 3/4" hard maple dovetailed drawer with 3/8" bottoms is probably less than 10 lbs….so not really hogging up a lot of weight.

Now 3/4" on a piece of furniture would look heavy, that was my point though. Different application require different methods…..in my shop. I don't believe in the one-size-fits-all concept;)

JeffD

[Erik Christensen]

I should have put my comment in context - the drawers i am making are for cabinets - kitchen, vanity, master closet - not fine furniture. The lightest rated slide i use are standard blumotion @ 100# - larger drawers (over 20" wide or 6" deep) are all 150# and for my 34" deep island drawers for cookware there are several that are #350 rated. I don't care about the weight of the box nor the 'looks' of a 3/4" sided drawer - I am solely focused on functionality. If after using the kitchen for a while we decide to store dishes in this drawer vs that one I do not have to worry about "I didn't build that drawer with the idea it might hold 100#".

But that's me & what I find important - others might have equally valid contrary opinions. What I like about this site is the diversity of experience - out of all that input i have tried various things till I have found what i like. If I wanted what everybody else has I would have saved myself a good part of a year's worth of work and just written a check for cabinets.

[Charles Wiggins]

#1 is usually the right choice, because it allows the bottom to be easily replaced if it gets broken or damaged. However, if the drawer is to carry lots of weight having the slot in all 4 sides will provide more support, but will make replacing the bottom much more difficult.

That's really the choice you're making. I've always done method #2 and I've never had to replace a drawer bottom, but I tend to overbuild things anyway. I usually use luan or ¼" HW ply. If I know there's a good chance the drawer is going to hold much weight I go with ½" ply. I've even done a few large shop drawers with 3/4" bottoms.

[Ole Anderson]

I don't do a lot of drawers like some of the others commenting here. But on my kitchen which I just finished, I went with a modified #1 to eliminate the slots needed for the Blum under mount slides. Modified as the rears are semi-captive with the use of a rabbit. Through Leigh dovetails because I care how they look. 1/2" prefinished ply bottoms, glue and 18 ga brads at the rear to hold them in place. Drawer sides are 5/8" solid beech, with an 1/8" radius roundover to make them look lighter than they really are. A little bit of router burn on the inside corners to remind me that I did them. And because I can never eliminate it or completely remove it after the burn happens.

[Larry Edgerton]

I do both, on the same drawer.......

Let me know if you can figure that one out.

Larry

[John T Barker]

John, could you expound a bit more on THE way to make a quality drawer? For example, do you go with hand cut dovetails for the front to side connection? Do you go with false fronts? How do you attach the sides to the back, are those nailed also? What woods do you recommend for the drawer sides, back and bottoms? Do you recommend bottom panels that are raised panels? Would appreciate hearing more of your wisdom on this topic. Thanks

I was trained in a reproduction shop, Irion Company Furnituremakers (now defunct, I believe.) That said I learned the 18th century method but we sped up our work with machines. Hand cut dovetails, half blind for the front and through for the back. No false fronts. I'm in Pennsylvania so it is poplar for the secondaries (sides, back and bottom.) The front and sides are grooved and the 1/2" bottom is run on a panel raiser to allow it to fit in the 1/4" groove. Grain expansion goes front to back and I nail it to the back. As I said I've made many and the shop I worked in made tens of thousands over their many years of business and I doubt they ever had to fix or replace one. They will shrink away from the front a bit but I've never seen it be a problem in my drawers at home.

No hardware, other than a nice brass pull, should be necessary on a drawer either.

John

[Lee Schierer]

What I was thinking of, is if the bottom gets busted or broken and it needs to be replaced, you don't have to take the whole drawer apart to replace the bottom. If it comes loose at the back, just re-nail it or put some screws in.

If you don't glue the plywood bottom in place when you enclose it in a dado in all four sides, you can simply rout out the dado in the back of the drawer, slide out the busted bottom and slide in a new one attaching it with screws at the back. Having full support all the way around gives you far more support than a couple of screws or nails in the fourth side so the bottom is less likely to break in the first place.