Bookcase project - Input sought

[Adrian Ponik]

Hi everyone,


So I'm in the planning stages of what will be my biggest woodworking project to date; building a set of bookcases that cover the majority of a wall in our living room. Just to be clear though, I'm not really into the built-in look. I'm not super interested in combining the shelves with the mantle/fireplace surround. I'm planning on making 4 separate units, each 3 feet wide and 7 feet tall.


This pic is kind of like what I'm thinking:
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb350/ajssbp/Living%20Room%20Bookshelves/mission-bookcase-unit-lg.jpg


Here's what I came up with Sketchup:
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb350/ajssbp/Living%20Room%20Bookshelves/Bookshelf36withdimentions.jpg


Shelves would all be adjustable, I just kind of evenly spaced them out for looks.


There are a few catches. First is the wood floor/trim/fireplace surround. They're all golden oak(ish) in color. The walls are a red/burgundy color which looks good with the golden oak, but I'm struggling with what wood to make the units out of that will look good with what is existing. I'm fine with using oak, but I don't want to make them golden oak as I don't really want the wall and the floors to be all golden oak - just too much.


Below is a pic of about 2/3 of the living room (can't back up enough to get the whole room in the shot). Also below is a Sketchup model of the room with a few dimensions. I'm not a Sketchup wiz, but I think it helps convey what I'm working with.


http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb350/ajssbp/Living%20Room%20Bookshelves/LivingRoom.jpg


The color isn't quite as burgundy as it appears, it's pretty much half way between the color in the picture and the color in the rendering. The floor color is pretty accurate though


http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb350/ajssbp/Living%20Room%20Bookshelves/LivingRoomModel.jpg


Rendering with bookshelves in place
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb350/ajssbp/Living%20Room%20Bookshelves/LivingRoomwithBookshelves.jpg


So, concerns/questions for the peanut gallery:


1. Wood suggestions/finishes? The color in the rendering is supposedly cherry, but I'm not real confident in how accurate it is. I'm thinking cherry or quarter sawn white oak would look nice, not sure how well walnut would fit. Any suggestions or images of any of the above with golden oak would be helpful.


2. Proportions - They look good to my eye, but I am by no means a furniture designer/expert. Any comments/suggestions? I'd be more than happy to share my Sketchup model if it helps.


3. Construction method - Initially I was just planning on making the carcass out of good plywood and then edging it all with hardwood. Looking at prices, a 4x8 sheet of cherry, qswo, or walnut are all ~$140, but I noticed that solid wood isn't actually that much more. Cherry is $3/bdft, qswo is $4.80/bdft, walnut is the most @ $5.18/bdft. It would be more work making it solid, having to edge glue basically everything for the sides and shelves, but something about a solid wood bookshelf just seems appealing to me. The issue with that is my planer is out of commission. Yeah, I could wait until the planer is fixed, but it would probably be another year before I would be starting on the shelves. Secondly, I have a 6" long bed jointer, but I'm not sure how well it would handle the 7' sides, and I've never jointed something that long before. Lastly, I don't know how much the wood would move and affect the shelving units. I've not made something this big out of solid wood before, so I'm not really sure how much wood movement there would be. I guess I'm looking for some input on solid vs plywood pros/cons.


Any input would be hugely helpful. Thanks in advance.


-Adrian

[Brian Holcombe]

It's my opinion that you should stick with oak, this is going to be a major feature of the room and should remain in concert with everything else in the room. Your work will be a standout simply because it will make the room, not because it was a deviation in wood species offering contrast.

Fix the shelves, it will help the structure maintain it's integrity. If you stick with plywood for the carcass I recommend using a lock miter for the corner joints, dados or rabbets for the shelves.

I built solid wood with plywood backs for my study, it's a bit more work but you can incorporate the joinery fitting to solid wood such as dovetailed corners, draw bored mortise and tenon, ect.

[Kenneth Walton]

For color/ wood species, you want to match really well, or not at all. Since you say you don't want it all golden oak, I think a darker color would work well. Cherry with a little dye on it?

Definitely go plywood for this - trying to joint, plane, and edge glue every piece of this would drive me bananas. Think of how many shelves you're going to have...

[Dave Richards]

If you don't like the built-in look, how about doing some pieces that are clearly not built in. This was just a quickie to give an idea. Maybe do something similar on the other side but without the doors at the bottom. Maybe make the tall case a bit narrower and shove it into the corner. Then put a lower case between it and the fireplace. Avoid a symmetrical layout.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7364/12567821114_f0d48dfec9.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8294157@N08/12567821114/)

[Sam Murdoch]

A few thoughts:

1) Use plywood. It will be more manageable especially considering your machine issues. In the original photo the cabinets have a full face frame and that's a good and easy solution. The shelf edges can be taped or solid wood. Solid wood will serve you better especially if your shelves will be wider than 32" and filled with books. An 1/2" or 3/4" thick X 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" solid edge will add some good scale and essential shelf stiffening.

2) On a case this tall I typically choose to fix 1 shelf (the 2nd one from the bottom) and leave the rest as adjustable. That gives you the structural integrity but allows for flexibility in use.

3) Material? My vote would be stay with the oak or go with maple. I would not want to go darker or add another red in the room. I like the idea of maple as you could then use refinished maple plywood for the case and shelves. Maple would share the golden of the oak and keep the room looking light. 3/4" sides and shelves, 1/2" backs - double sided pre fin for the shelf stock but you could use 1 sided pre fin everywhere else. This is a very durable finish and will cut your work in half.

4) As you do not intend to integrate the fireplace with the flanking units I go along with Dave Richard's idea of 1 or 2 independent cabinets. I also like his suggestion of base cabinets with bookcases above. Sorry but your "Rendering with bookshelves in place" looks unfinished and I don't see how to make it work without bridging over the fireplace. Another advantage of this plan is that you can build one cabinet to work out the bugs in your process and have even more fun when you do #2 :). One could be a double wide and the other could be a single allowing for a chair or other piece in the corner, or closer to the fireplace, to soften the look. This is me reiterating Dave's comment - "Avoid a symmetrical layout." Also one could have a deeper base than the upper so that you would have a counter top and the other unit could be all in the same plane with doors below and open above. - You can still store books behind the doors of course.

'nuff for now from this peanut gallery viewer - but seein' as you asked...

[John TenEyck]

I would use oak or maple, too, or some other light colored wood. Going dark will close up the room, and cherry or anything red would look just awful to me against that color wall. Your rendering looks like something a contractor would do just to say the living room has built in book cases. They just aren't in harmony with the space. I don't have any great ideas at the moment, but like Dave R. proposed I would look for something asymmetrical, maybe tall on one side, lower on the other, maybe one unit going all the to the ceiling and following it's angle at the top, maybe a wall hung unit above the lower one, maybe glass doors on that one. I'm not sure but I'm sure that it will be a focal point of the room so I'd want it to look like an architect designed it to fit the space. And I know you said you didn't want to do it, but I'd consider ripping off that mantel and building a massive, integrated unit to fill the wall, with shelves, glass doors, lighted nooks for art work or sculpture, etc. Now that would be a focal point.

Anything on the front would be solid wood. Insides, hidden sides, backs, etc. could be plywood. You are only going to build this once. Aim high.

John

[george newbury]

Also seriously consider if you will need more bookshelves in the future or will want to move the ones you build.

I was supposed to build bookshelves for SWMBO when I ran across a surplus sale.

SWMBO wanted to "line the walls" of our formal dining room/library in the home we are gradually moving to in Mississippi. She had bought "professional" oak bookshelves 30+ years ago which covered one wall. I was going to need to build 4 more units to match the first or buy them (at an approximate cost of $1,000 each).

Those are in the first pic. They are 36" wide by 84" tall. Note there are 2 end pieces and a middle piece on each side of the "hutch".
282587

Then I found the five double sided bookshelves at an online auction which I won for $350. Sample in second pic.
282588
I initially was going to cut the bases and uprights in half so we could put them with backs to the wall. That would have given us an additional "floor" length of 12', with a lot of shelves left over. She decided to try setting them up double sided and to see how it worked, and was going to try and set up all 5, but after 3 she decided she didn't have enough books yet :) That gave us an additional 18' of "floor length".

For your site (w/ fireplace in the center) are you going to cover the wall on both sides of the fireplace with the 36" wide pieces? Were you planning on 2 standalone units on each side, thus 8 end pieces total?

It might be a lot easier to build them so you have a double wide unit on each side with 2 end pieces and sharing a middle piece. And use the entire wall.

Since you are not going to "build them in" you might want to duplicate how the library systems go together so you can dismantle them and move them relatively easily later on.

282597

The last pic is of the entire 5 double sided units in my truck. A lot easier to move.

/edit - excuse the poor pics please - those were the only ones I had handy.

[Yonak Hawkins]

Adrian, I know you said you were not interested in built-ins, but with such a beautiful wall as that,
would you consider something like this :

282664

.. to accent and take advantage of it ?

[keith micinski]

Definitely use ply, I would fix the shelves because almost no one ever adjust the shelves after the first time they use them and fixing them makes it stronger and is probably easier to do. If you do make them adjustable you should still fix at least one shelf like someone else mentioned. Probably go with the golden oak since you don't plan on changing the rest of the room. I have a red wall in my house with white wainscoting and trim I like. The red with a bunch of golden oak doesn't do it for me. Personally I think you should paint the wall a neutral color like cream or a light gray so the that bookcases standout as the defining element of the room. The get lost in the red. I also wouldn't do the bottom in cabinets unless you need cabinet storage. Losing half of your bookshelf space sucks.

[Sam Murdoch]

You can bridge over the fireplace without adding more cabinetry - can be a simple as a panel in a frame or just a valance that spans between the bookcases with a common crown molding and possibly some recessed lights. Do a google - https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=bookcase+fireplace+surround+images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 There are lots of baaaaaddd ideas but some good one too. Maybe a hybrid of one of these could be just right.

[Brian Tymchak]

There are a few catches. First is the wood floor/trim/fireplace surround. They're all golden oak(ish) in color. The walls are a red/burgundy color which looks good with the golden oak, but I'm struggling with what wood to make the units out of that will look good with what is existing. I'm fine with using oak, but I don't want to make them golden oak as I don't really want the wall and the floors to be all golden oak - just too much.



Here's my $.02 worth. You currently have 3 wood/finishes in the area: floor, fireplace, window and base trim, and potentially adding a fourth, making the area pretty busy with the different finishes. IMHO, to make the cabinets better "fit", I think I would use the same wood as the fireplace and then refinish the mantel/surround to match the new cabinets, or build a new mantel/surround to match the cabinets. I know that's making the project larger than you were considering, but in this case, I think it's worth it.

[Brian Holcombe]

My thought for that would be to panel to the ceiling hang a mirror or painting.

[Rick Moyer]

What about white? Post #4 above shows a white bookcase and I think that would contrast nicely with your flooring and walls, plus you could then use whatever material you choose.

[keith micinski]

Another thought is to leave the flooring because it is fine but paint the casing, base and the mantel white. This solves two things. Number one, this would allow you to build the bookcases out of whatever finish you want I feel because furnishings do not need to match flooring. More importantly it would get your great room away from looking like it was time warped from 1984. I am obviously biased and realize it but I love the 80's and everything from it except for one thing. Well two if you count popcorn ceilings, but the other is the golden oak "upgrade" look. Nothing looks cheaper then a room full of golden oak, especially one painted a bold color. Again I am biased though by hating it so much so my opinion probably doesn't matter all that much.

[keith micinski]

In full disclosure I have the same red room with white accents so I am even more biased then I thought.:D

I did build a wall of bookcases for a client in a similar style and color as the ones in your first post and they did not match the trim in the rest of the basement but the room was a cream color and the carpet was light so it didn't turn out to bad. The customer chose to match a desk they had instead of the trim and at first I tried to talk them out of that but I think in the end it not matching the trim and staircase worked out ok.

[Russ Kupiec]

Another $.02 from the peanut gallery......
Ply for the sides solves any jointer and planer issues. A budget alternative method to using a jointer can be done nicely with a factory edge on a 3/4" mdf strip(min. 6" wide for lateral stability) as a guide board for a circular saw cut. Just buy a cheap 40-48 toothed carbide blade and painters tape for chip out protection. The hardwood edging will hide witness saw marks and a tuned hand plane will make them disappear in a sec. Assuming you are buying the hardwood edging from your local wood shop, the additional shop charge for planing and jointing the vertical edging is a modest portion of the total wood bill and well worth the efficiency step, getting you to the actual shelf constuction that much faster. I still have a 8' mdf straightedge that is within 1/32" straight accross the length, although I did edge the board with laminate for durability. I have since acquired festoolitis and rarely use the jointer for long pieces, track sawing is faster..
I vote with the other voices advocating fixed shelves, I haven't adjusted my adjustables ever. Fixing the shelves makes it very stable and eases the installation. Use higher shelves on the bottom for larger things and to save your back. There is no wood movement issue with ply sides and ply back. If you use hardwood shelves, you will get some movement in them front to back but not enough to worry about.

[keith micinski]

Use ply for the shelves also and either edge band them or use face frames.

[Sam Murdoch]

Time for the OP to weigh in :confused:. Hope he's not snowed in.

[Adrian Ponik]

Sam Murdoch
Time for the OP to weigh in :confused:. Hope he's not snowed in.



Not snowed in (anymore....), although I have spent a lot of quality time with the snowblower and shovel recently.

So, I guess here are my thoughts after reading everybody's comments/suggestions:

1. I agree that the way the drawing/model looked was kind of unfinished. At this point I just don't have the skills (and more importantly money) to totally redo the mantel. Some day I would love to tear the old one out along with all the tile, replace it with some nice slate and build a more Craftsman style surround which I think would look nicer (and more importantly not be in golden oak). Maybe like this but with slate instead of the tiles they used:

282909
For now though, that's kind of off the table until I'm more skilled, and more importantly, have the cash.

2. One of the common themes I'm hearing is that the shelves just look unfinished. Someone suggested (sorry I forgot who) to make the shelves kind of tiered and have the taller ones about the same height as the window trim. Here's what I came up with:

http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb350/ajssbp/Living%20Room%20Bookshelves/LivingroomwithTieredShelves.jpg

Outer shelves are around 7 feet, which is the same height as the upper window trim, the inner shelves are about 6 feet which is almost half way between the top of the mantel and the 7 foot shelves. Improvement?

3. Part of my plan is to make this room more of a study than a true living room. Over time I'd like to make a standalone desk and a coffee table in the same wood and finish to try and tie it all together. And there will be a rug involved to cover some of the floor too. I'm really leaning toward a medium-dark brown Stickley-type finish. I know it will make the room feel smaller and a little darker, but it has gigantic windows and a high ceiling, so I don't think the darker wood will really make the room feel tiny, particularly with the light floors.

So, with that, is this an improvement? Does the overall room plan make sense? Thanks.

[Yonak Hawkins]

Adrian, this idea defines a great space above the fireplace. In that space will have to go some kind of centerpiece. The lines around the space will draw attention to it, whatever you decide to put there, so it will not have to be an attention-grabber in itself, but could be something that generates conversation. Just something to think about.

[Ethan Melad]

My first instinct says that bookshelves that are not somehow connected to the mantel or built in are going to look a little odd in your space. I know you said you're not a fan of built-ins, but I think in this case it would yield the best looking result. I think something like the cases shown in your picture above (with the tiled surround) would be perfect for your room. Keep the cases at mantel height, in the same wood species (or use paint grade and paint the cases and mantel the same color), and then add either a picture rail or floating shelves above. This would keep the bookcases grounded and maintain a consistent line across the room without limiting what can go on the wall above.

edit - shelves/vases are just examples, i don't mean that each side should be different.


quick drawing: 282916

[Mel Fulks]

I see no point in making a rare symmetrical room asymmetrical . Don't think the arches at case tops are of any benefit in this particular room. Would make the cases adjascent to fire place taller than the two end cases. Then put a panel, painting , SOMETHING, higher than the taller cases.

[John T Barker]

For now though, that's kind of off the table until I'm more skilled, and more importantly, have the cash.

2. One of the common themes I'm hearing is that the shelves just look unfinished. Someone suggested (sorry I forgot who) to make the shelves kind of tiered and have the taller ones about the same height as the window trim. Here's what I came up with:

http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb350/ajssbp/Living%20Room%20Bookshelves/LivingroomwithTieredShelves.jpg

Outer shelves are around 7 feet, which is the same height as the upper window trim, the inner shelves are about 6 feet which is almost half way between the top of the mantel and the 7 foot shelves. Improvement?


Personally I would have a problem with this if I were in this room. I would want the heights of the bookcases to follow the slant of the ceiling, not be opposite it. I think if you have tall bookcases next to the mantle and a picture above the mantle it will look good. Flanking those bookcases I would put bookcases of the same height or lower.

[John T Barker]

In reply to your construction questions earlier I wanted to throw out some ideas. I work in retail furniture and we buy from a number of wholesalers/shops that make bookcases and there are some methods they all follow, for whatever reason. All make their bookcases out of plywood with hardwood face frames, all have adjustable shelves, all put a fixed shelf at 30" from the ground. The ply is cheaper for them to work with and is stable dimensionally, which cuts down on problems down the line with wood movement. I like the idea of the ply for those reasons though I am not sure I would use it myself...depends on whether I am being a purist that week.

[Brian Holcombe]

I like the direction that Ethan is going with this. A set of shelves that are equal in height to the fireplace mantel may be better for this room. The major issue I have with the overall picture that this forms is that it's not considering the pitched ceiling, which is made worse by the outside bookcases being taller.

Check out some of the Greene and Greene style fireplace surrounds, I think it'll give you a good leap off point for your project.

[keith micinski]

I think altering the heights of the bookcases makes a big difference and looks great. I actually like that more then if they were reversed like everyone else thinks. If you had a really nice picture or something you wanted to showcase, that spot would be the focal point of the whole room and wouldn't be very expensive to do. I know how hard it is when your on a budget and no matter how much you want something sometimes price has to dictate what you do. You might have to consider coming up with a plan and then doing it in stages so that the end result is one your happy with but also could budget for. One other thing to consider is to alter the depths of the bookcases and have the inside ones be 6 inches deeper then the outside ones.

[Mel Fulks]

The amount of space between the mantle and book case is enough that a built in look is not needed. Making the cases no deeper than necessary will also help. Think about how they will be used ,they don't have to be a foot deep just because the ones at Walmart are. Taller cases need to be beside the mantle, a design can be good without being odd. The arch tops are only a distraction .

[Sam Murdoch]

I think altering the heights of the bookcases makes a big difference and looks great. I actually like that more then if they were reversed like everyone else thinks. If you had a really nice picture or something you wanted to showcase, that spot would be the focal point of the whole room and wouldn't be very expensive to do. I know how hard it is when your on a budget and no matter how much you want something sometimes price has to dictate what you do. You might have to consider coming up with a plan and then doing it in stages so that the end result is one your happy with but also could budget for. One other thing to consider is to alter the depths of the bookcases and have the inside ones be 6 inches deeper then the outside ones.

I'm with Keith here EXCEPT for his last suggestion. Changing the depth - especially as much as 6" has no benefit to my eye. I do agree with the placement of the lower units on the inside and that this could be nicely balanced - and made to look more "expected" with a pair of wall sconces and something decorative in the middle over the fireplace- a painting or a piece of stain glass or a decorative mirror come to mind - NOT A WIDE SCREEN TV - oh sorry, I'm yelling now :). I agree with Mel that the arch tops are not needed.


In fact - it just occurred to me - what would like nice and help integrate the units to the fireplace is to have a solid wood top in oak or a near oak color (regardless of the species for the rest of the cabinet) with the edge detail matching or nearly matching that of the mantel, but of course scaled to a size appropriate for the tops - maybe 7/8" to
1-1/4" thick. If thicker than 7/8" I would apply a profiled edge rather than using a solid thick top.

[keith micinski]

I don't know a large flat wall with flat surfaces on it looks,well,flat. Adding dimension to a wall by changing depth really adds a custom look and character to a project as opposed to 4 flat rectangles sitting there. I like your idea about the mirror and I would add a matching frame to compliment the bookcases. Come to think I have a big mirror in my red room so it sounds like I am really just trying to talk this guy into building a replica of my room.:D