Getting started with hand woodworking

[Ron D Davis]

Hello
Been looking at the forum for a year or two and finally decided to make a post. You might say I am a new wood worker interested in the old ways. I have picked up a few tools over the past 2 years, and getting ready to start building my first work bench. I have been interested in the recent Paul Sellers bench post, and have viewed all his free videos. I am wanting to build a bench with a smaller footprint, about 4' to 5" would be the maximum for my current space. I am interested in learning to do hand cut dovetails, basic boxes, making a saw bench, moxon vise, cutting boards, stools and maybe some end tables. I have picked up a few hand planes, old brace and bits, coping saw, back saw, cross cut saws and draw knife but I have yet to get any wood chisels. I am getting ready to start restoring the hand planes and saws before beginning to build the work bench. I am not interested in collecting tools at the moment, just learning to use them without power. I also picked up a wooden screw kit so I can make my own wooden screws for the moxon vise and maybe a leg vise. What draws me to this forum is the old way of doing woodworking, someone said "make shavings instead of dust" and that's important to me. I have a very limited budget, as well as a small shop so that is another reason for doing it by hand. Well enough rambling, so I Thank You all for the forum and hopefully I can make a few friends along this journey.
Ron

[Jim Koepke]

Ron,

Welcome to the Creek.

My current bench is 5' long and is great for most of my projects.

If you do not already have a work surface it might help to build a pair of saw benches first to support the work in progress.

It is often said, "it takes having a bench to build a bench." Actually one just needs something to imitate a bench while building a bench.

Chisels are very useful tools in the shop. Even with good sets being fairly economical it can still strain the budget. Be on the lookout for yard sales and such where sometimes you can pick up an old chisel or two for a bargain price. Even a lesser chisel can still do the job and help one to learn sharpening. Then they can go in the beater drawer for when a neighbor wants to borrow a chisel or if you are working outside in the rain.

Keep in touch and show us some pictures of your work if you have a camera.

jtk

[Noah Wagener]

Welcome. Roy Underhill has a school in NC fyi. If you have not bought chisels I would suggest not buying bench chisels. I think some chisels dedicated to paring and some dedicated to chopping is better. My only chisels are bench ones from the borg and i find them too short for paring and they can twist chopping. Hopefully someone give you advice on this. I have been wanting to ask about a starter set of chisels. For doing dovetails i think you want parers as a fret saw cuts most of the waste. But I never see any chisels with zero land except expensive Japanese ones. Land is where there beveled edge meets a small flat on the sides. Maybe its not necessary.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm using Lie Nielsen chisels and I like them a lot. You don't need a full set to start, so I would get the majors and for me that would be;

-Bench chisels in - 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1" and I have an extra 3/4" chisel in 01 tool steel with a long handle cut to 25 degrees for paring.
-Mortise chisels in 1/4", 1/2" which will allow you the proper width for mortising 4/4 and 8/4 stock (technically this would be 5/8" but I find 1/2" to be fine).

[Judson Green]

Welcome Ron

I've been happy with Narex bench chisels, haven't made any dovetail drawers yet, but for a starter set I don't think ya can go to wrong with them. As Jim said go to flea markets, restores, and yard sales also check out your local CL.

[David Weaver]

Ron, if you're on a limited budget I'd get a set of chisels dictated by the budget. Narex would be a good budget option, and if you're really constrained, you can get by with chisels from harbor freight for a while (I say that from experience - there's a set that are sold at HF that are usable without issue other than that they're a little soft and over the long term, they'll probably come apart, but they'll get you going). If you decide you want a chisel with no lands for dovetails, you can literally just grind the lands off of them, though grinding lands off of chisels completely does come at a price for the corners - they will microchip off and appear to wear very fast.

As far as saws go, for getting started in crosscut sawing, there is a 12 point stanley saw 26 inches long, new, impulse hardened teeth. It will cut very fast for you and the impulse hardened teeth will last a long time. Costs about $25. I'd be surprised if you couldn't get several years of regular use out of it. It will cut straight for you, too, if reconditioning a crosscut saw serves to vex you.

You probably already have some stanley or similar planes.

Good luck restoring the saws and planes. If it doesn't work out the way you want, let us know. That leaves you only with figuring out what you'll do to mark wood.

[Anthony Moumar]

I agree with the recommendation for the Narex chisels. I have a set of them and they've served me well. If I were to go back I would actually avoid buying the set though. I've found that I only really use the 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" and 1 1/2". I recently upgraded to some Veritas PV M11 chisels and they stay sharp longer but aren't hugely better than the Narex chisels.

My bench is 5ft long and I find it comfortable to use. Sometimes it feels a bit short but I've never encountered a task that I can't do because it's too small. I would definitely try and make it at closer to 5ft than 4 ft though if you can.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I am not interested in collecting tools at the moment, just learning to use them without power.

This is what we all thought when starting out. I have to admit that I regularly look at sites like the SMC classifieds, supertool and hyperkitten etc even though I don't need anything at the moment.

[Gary Kman]

Everything you have ever seen done with hand tools has been done with edge tools sharp enough to shave the hair off your arm. Without tools that sharp woodworking is pure frustration or simply impossible. Sharp chisels and plane irons look like a mirror on the flat side and have an equal finish on the edge of the front side.

This is where it gets complicated (more opinions than the perfect motor oil).
A cheap bench grinder dressed often with a cheap wheel dresser and skill and attention will do a good job rough grinding to get ready for sharpening. Do not grind all of the way to the cutting edge. Excessive heat will result at a ground-to-nothing edge. A grinder leaves a 60 -100 grit finish. The required mirror finish is 8,000 or better.

Now the sharpening. Cheap or expensive, durable or expendable, quick and easy or slow. Machines, stones, diamonds, sand paper, jigs strops, compounds - we use them all and more. Search this forum for materials and techniques. An excellent source of information is Experiments on Knife Sharpening John D. Verhoeven found on the web. We should all have electron microscopes to see what an edge looks like. Lacking that, at least he does and tells us how.

An investment in knowledge, technique and materials at this stage will make or break working with edge tools. Welcome and good hunting.

[Jim Foster]

With all the information and help available, I think you'll find your path the working with hand tools very enjoyable. Several suggestions, that you may already know;

1) Don't skimp on sharpening needs. You need to be able to sharpen saws (with files), plane and chisel blades with a bench grinder and sharpening stones. I tried oil stones, ended up with water stones. The water part is a pain, but it works for me, you may like another system better.

2) For your first set of chisels, something used and inexpensive is more than fine. I use the blue handles Marples I got in the 90's. There are much better ones out there, but truth be told, these work fine. (I also think the edges hold a little better than the new Stanley Sweetheart I bought, even though it has been reported that the Marples chisels went downhill in the 90's) I picked up a set of Narex Mortise chisels and they are good, I did some large mortises with the 1/2 and it did a great job.

3) Tools to look for: A router plane is very useful, I found a perfectly good one for $4.00 several years back, and I use it a lot more than I thought I would to finish hinge mortises and clean up tenon cheeks. A low angle block plane if you don't have one comes in handy.

4) A shop made shooting board is a great addition to a hand work shop.

5) I finally set up a #6 Bailey as a scrub or fore plane and I wish I had the nerve to tackle this years ago, the large camber was surprisingly easy to do and it works really well at getting rough lumber flat and to thickness. Chris Schwarz has a video of setting up the camber. I ground it the same way he suggests, but freehand sharpened it (instead of the jig he uses) and it was ready to go form start to finish in about 15 minutes or so.

[Graham Haydon]

What David said

[Terry Stapleton]

Try to find someone who will let you use some of his really sharp tools in his shop for a while. I would have saved myself many hours of frustration and aggravation if I had been able to find a sharpening mentor and had known from the start what sharp really is.

[Ron D Davis]

Thanks guys, a lot of great information. I have to learn some of the terms as I do not fully understand all of it yet. I have a B&D workmate right now, old desk, and a couple of saw horses that I have used to build the few things that I have built. I hope I can get the bench made with this. I will have to pick up some clamps for the glue ups as none of mine are long enough. I picked up a Bailey #4 and # 6 and a Millers Falls plane, Millers Falls egg beater drill, brace and bit set, nice old Stanley marking gauge, couple of Disston old hand saws and that's about it for hand tools. I do have a 11" band saw, HF small desktop lathe for hopefully making my own marking knifes, and a 8" bench grinder. Small shop guys, so I plan on buying no more powered tools. Yes Sir, sharpening is something that I will need to learn right off the bat, as the hand planes need restoring and sharpened, hopefully right now I can get buy with piece of glass and sandpaper as Paul Sellers demonstrated until money comes along for a better option. I am sure sharpening the handsaws will also be a learning experience. Do I really need a saw setting tool right now? If so what vintage brand would be a good one? Also, watching Paul Sellers plane the 2x4 lumber for glue ups and getting everything square for the bench top looks like it will be something that will take me awhile. I have no experience with hand planes, and I know it is not as easy as he makes it look. I have built a couple of banjos, mandolin kit, solid body guitar, dulcimer but all of this was mainly done with powered tools. My interest is also no noise, no saw dust and no powered equipment. I want to get started as soon as the weather breaks and I can do some work outside. Thanks again for the information, and I going to go search the forum for more information now.
Ron

[Jim Matthews]

You can set saw teeth with a small hammer, a punch and a light touch.
Use a hardwood backer, and the teeth will be driven by the punch to make a "set".

The advantage of a set is to make this essentially automatic.

******

I recommend a bench no longer than six feet, for most shops.
I think it best to keep the bench height close to your belt line.

I like the "starter benches" I've seen made from Ikea butcher block tops,
or laminations from plywood.

Bob Van Dyke has published an excellent article on just that project.
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/42784/build-your-first-workbench/page/all

[Brian Holcombe]

60" is fine for a bench, and it doesn't need to be excessively deep either, mine's 32' (before the vise) but could have just as easily been 24" and I wouldn't know the difference in using it. Your bench will be your reference surface for a majority of your projects, so I think it's important for it to be heavy, stable and flat.

Often times it's incredibly important to have a flat reference surface, for dovetailing, for flatting material that has any bit of give in it, ect.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I have a B&D workmate right now, old desk, and a couple of saw horses that I have used to build the few things that I have built. I hope I can get the bench made with this.
For sure but build the top first then use it placed on the saw horses to complete the build.

The workmate you have was designed by a fellow South African who sadly passes away in 2011.



Do I really need a saw setting tool right now? If so what vintage brand would be a good one?
There are literally hundreds of different saw sets out there but most folk here recommend the Stanley 42X as it's adjustable. However for the price of a new pair from T4WW, they can't be beat.

[Chris Fournier]

Get the basics, buy the best you can afford and actually use your tools to make something out of wood. There is a huge difference between a collection of tools and a tool collector, sounds like you want the former - my choice too. Enjoy this excellent craft!

[Maurice Ungaro]

Ron, I see you are in North Carolina. There are quite a few of us in the state. You don't mention what part you are in, but if you are in the Raleigh/Durham/Cary area, there are many opportunities for you. Myself, I live in Cary. You are welcome to visit, pick brain, etc. Also, be aware that Woodworking In America will be in Winston-Salem this September. I can't think of a better opportunity for someone such as yourself to delve into the realm of handtool woodworking than going to WIA.

[Ron D Davis]

The workmate is a nice tool, I have had it for years and used it for many projects. It was a great design, hate to hear the designer has passed.

I am located outside Shelby near the SC line in a small town named Grover.

I was in a local HF yesterday and picked up their basic bevel edge chisel set, 1/4", 1/2" and 1" for a little less than 5 dollars. They need work, but I guess they will do for now.

The ones that recommended the Narvex chisels, Do you recommend the bevel edge or classic edge? I think the classic would be better for the work that I plan on doing, but I really have no idea :confused: They do seem to be priced a little more.

Paring chisels? Do you think I could get by with just a 1/4" and 1/2" for now?

Mortise chisels? Same question, 1/4" and 1/2" for now?

I have several projects that I want to build, and trust me the tools will be used. I know I have a lot to learn and I am sorry for the stupid questions but money is tight and I sure don't know what I need to know to start this undertaking. After reading CS Workbench design book, my head is spinning trying to figure out the best design. I believe I will go with the 5' length, and probably 22" to 26" wide.

Thanks Ron

[Maurice Ungaro]

I think you can get by without paring chisels and mortise chisels. Here's why: Paring chisels are nice to have items down the road - with a hairslpitting edge on a bevel chisel, you can pare anything; Mortise chisels are also nice to have, but you can make perfectly fine mortises by hogging out the bulk of the waste with a drill (bit brace) and paring the walls square with that sharp chisel. IF you do want to pick up some mortise chisels, look at the thickness of wood you will be using. Rule of thumb is 1/3 to 1/2 of the stock thickness for the mortise width. For 4/4 wood, a lot of folks use a 3/8" mortise chisel.

I would highly encourage you to try to make it to WIA in September!

[Marko Milisavljevic]

Here is my suggestion on bootstrapping your bench build with the Workmate:

Depending on specific model you have, get the widest piece of construction lumber that will fit in the jaws. Mine is Workmate 425 with removable center section, and in it I clamped a 10"x2" straight piece of fir, 8ft long, on one end, and let it rest on a sawhorse on the other end (in my case, it wasn't a sawhorse, it was height-adjustable roller stand). On one end of this board I screwed in a 1/2" tall piece of wood to act as planing stop. On the other end, I used this vise to support edge work http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=31144&cat=1,41659,41665,31144. To prevent Workmate from skidding across your shop as you work, I used a wide-open jaws of a 3ft long clamp to hook legs of workmate to a sturdy shelf, in direction of planing.

This setup worked great and allowed me to hand dimension all lumber for my bench, of which construction is still in progress.

[Cory Waldrop]

I used the heavy set of yellow metal sawhorses from the big box store to build my workbench. Definitely do the top first. Then you can lay the top down on the sawhorses and use that to make all the other parts. Sounds like you are on your way. As already said in this thread....... use your tools and make stuff. Its easy to get caught up in buying and not actually using. Also post pictures of your work too. Its fun to see what others do and how they do it.

[Ron D Davis]

Thanks for the replies, I cannot remember the model number of my workmate but it is at least 16 years old. I have a 36" table that is 4' long that I dug out that will also help, and a couple of saw horses that my Dad passed down to me. I am going to have to start working on the top in another building due to the small size and complete mess of my current shop. So I will have to keep the weight in check due to moving it at a later date. I plan to build the legs this way also, and actually put it together in the shop where I will use it when both parts are ready. I am planning on building a leg vise with a 1 1/2" wooden screw on the left side, I plan on the top being 20" wide and 5' long but right now I am cannot make up mind on the end vise. I may add a double screw moxon vise to the right end using the same 1 1/2" wooden screws or try to make a simple tail vise with the wooden screw? So many choices for the new worker, enough to confuse me for sure. I am trying my hardest not to buy a vise, due to the cost, that is the main reason for using the wooden screws. I will first have to try the wooden screw kit out to see if that works and that may be a learning experience also. First thing I am planning on doing is getting the construction 2 x 4 lumber planed down and laminated for the top so that is my main concern and your posts are helping with that issue. I have had to work over on the day job for several days so I have not even had time to go pick up the wood yet. I sure appreciate the help guys, and I will take some pictures of the progress once it gets started.
Ron

[Sean Hughto]

Welcome! Even handsaws make saw dust, though!
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5492/12576287935_be426b778c_b.jpg

[Ron D Davis]

Yes Sir I understand, but that is fine because we use them by hand. Nice knife on the bench, I cannot make out the brand though? I want to make a knife for dovetails also.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Nice knife on the bench, I cannot make out the brand though? I want to make a knife for dovetails also.

Looks like a Pfeil carving knife.

[Jim Matthews]

I have several projects that I want to build, and trust me the tools will be used. I know I have a lot to learn and I am sorry for the stupid questions but money is tight and I sure don't know what I need to know to start this undertaking. After reading CS Workbench design book, my head is spinning trying to figure out the best design. I believe I will go with the 5' length, and probably 22" to 26" wide. Thanks Ron

You need a stable flat surface that is sturdy enough to hold things still as you perform cutting, planing and drilling.
If you are interested in making furniture, clamping options are more important than storage.

Search Ikea Butcher block workbenches to find some less involved alternatives to the complicated designs, currently in favor.

Your first bench will become an assembly table or sharpening station, when you are ready to build a more solid design.
Don't let this primary tool become a stumbling block.

I would recommend you haunt Craigslist and rehab an old bench that's already built.
The tedious aspect of laminating a top, truing all the boards and getting things straight -
they're not tasks ideally suited to a beginner.

Your skill set will grow, starting with smaller projects.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/workbenches/schwarz-workbenches/notes-on-the-two-day-workbench

[Sean Hughto]

The knife is a Pfeil, aka swiss made. I don't use it for marking though. In this case, you are seeing a set of tools in use during tenon making. The knife is sometimes useful to cut fibers at the base of the tenon where it meets the inside of the shoulder. I use a Blue Spruce knife for marking.

[Ron D Davis]

Your skill set will grow, starting with smaller projects.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/workbenches/schwarz-workbenches/notes-on-the-two-day-workbench

Thanks Jim, That design is something that I think I can handle with my skill set and sure would be easier that what I was planning on. I can make the moxon vise later and attach it on top of the bench and remove it when not needed.
Ron

[Jim Matthews]

Have a browse of "Askwoodman" on YouTube.

He's an unconventional builder of doors, and large furniture projects.
Alan uses simple kitchen paring knives in his videos to mark dovetails.

Good steel, sharpened to a keen edge with a comfortable handle for less than $10 -
what's not to love?

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

I want to add a few things I've learned in my path along beginning woodworking. A very random list, not the most important things, just things others didn't cover that have made a difference to me as a beginner... I'm a fellow beginner on a very tight budget.

Oh, before I start, my focus so far is on having fun making things and learning. I've made a number of smaller projects and tools. I'm only now feel ready to spend money on enough good wood for some furniture and feel confident enough I won't waste it through mistakes. There are some here who would go crazy with this approach - they're just as right if not more - but it works for me.

---People are your best resource. It may not be simple to meet people locally, but it is so worthwhile. Online is great too. The folk here are amazingly helpful.

---Used, old tools can be a fantastic deal or complete junk. Best find someone who you can trust and pay a little extra for the knowledge you are getting your money's worth, IMO. Others can give better advise on used tool dealers and sources.

---A card scraper (and burnisher) is a wonderful tool that gets me out of a lot of jams - not so often fine finishing tasks as removing wood when I lack the right tool for the job. Used sharp and aggressively it can do a fair amount. It is also cheap.

---Do somehow come up with a flat, stable surface. If, like me, you start working on an old broken desk as a stand in for a real bench, don't hesitate to use some eyebolts, wire cable and turnbuckles to add diagonal rigidity. My crappy cheap junk bench is now VERY solid. Ugly, but it was anyhow. I've been able to plain my real benchtop on it when before it would have been easier to get a waterbed off craigslist and plain on that! On another desk I simply nailed some scrap plywood across the back and a scrap side of a cheap bookshelf across the front. Almost as effective. That weight set that wasn't getting any use? it now weighs down the wannabe bench.

---Workholding is an issue at first. I finally got some wooden hand screws. I so wish I had a few years back instead of dealing with the hand me down bar clamps for everything. I got three from HF because they are cheap, then a few more of CL. The fact you can clamp things in the clamp, then clamp the clamp to your bench... well, makes not having a proper vise more tolerable.

---Sharpening has been an important part of my path. It was one of the major roadblocks when I try a project. I would have to set up my sharpening stuff and then sharpen everything since it was a pain to set up. It took way too long, and then I'd put it off too long since it was a pain. Spending the effort and time to make some simple jigs for sharpening chisels and plane blades helped a lot. Recently remaking them so they are quicker to set up and use, and having a few for different types of blades, has helped even more. Finally, following all the details suggested for my way of sharpening instead of taking shortcuts has made it the quick, painless pause with consistent results instead of a painful, long, likely somewhat unsuccessful interruption of half my woodworking time for that day. In my case I'm using scary sharp, based on the details listed on http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/
One note: I also have the ubiquitous cheap side clamping jig. I strongly suggest you file it down a bit as suggested here: http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/41582/hot-rod-an-inexpensive-honing-guide
It makes it actually work.
Probably the most useful thing was when I got around to making a board with dowels sticking up to help me set the blade projection for different angles for different jigs. (note that you have to measure from the TOP of the blade as it is sharpened - really the back of the blade, not the beveled side, to find the actual angle. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/my-embarrassing-tool-setting-jig shows one and has some good links, including the one I gave above. I used dowels, they use blocks. Blocks are more robust but I was lazy.
My favorite jig for sharpening:
286799

It straddles the paper, can hold blades of different lengths by putting them between different slats, can hold tapered blades using an insert as seen, holds blades tightly, was made from scrap and cheap hardware, and since it clamps from the top you can ignore blade thickness when determining angle. I need to remake it more strongly, this was another test piece I just ended up using. Of course the super simple ones like most seen on Brent's Sharpening Pages work well too and can be made with very few tools.

---I've found making my own tools is a great way to learn. I'm on a very tight budget as well, so making tools is also *sometimes* cheaper than *some* options, but most of all it is fun and greatly satisfying. If I can only afford a bit of wood OR the tool to work that wood, I might as well just get the wood and make a tool I'll use later. This keeps me busy as I slowly build up the tools and skills. IF that side of things appeals to you, get the fantastic book by John Wilson, "Making Wood Tools". It depends on the tool, of course. Planes can be made rather easily and cheaply. My most recent was a drawknife. Of course, it took me a few days to make when a lady on CL I was buying some wooden hand screws from had a decent one for just $5.

Making tools seemed hard until I realized I could actually make the blades quite easily. A search for detailed heat treating and steel type instructions led me over to knifemaking forums. There I found basically all the experts suggest getting 1084 steel for beginners since it is easier to heat treat correctly (mostly because you only have to get it to temp, no "soak" time at temp necessary). Lots of folk have great success with other steels but I liked the results. It isn't common but is available from a few. PM me and I'll send you a piece you can use to make a marking knife. A normal propane or mapp torch and a couple soft fire bricks from a pottery supply place and you'll have your forge for heat treating and even small forging.

I got by with a cheap set of three orange plastic handled chisels for a long time. They are ugly as can be and they needed some work to ready for use but they have held up OK. Now that I have a few better chisels I grab them when I am worried about nails (rarely) or, most recently, chiseling out some unbelievably hard knots in my workbench top. Petrified wood-hard! I kinda think I got lucky with this set - seems they were heat treated properly, by chance no doubt.

Do NOT buy your planes or drills/braces etc from ACE HW or one of the BORG type stores if they are anything like what we have here! The planes are essentially useless and the hand drills have plastic gears. I bought a small black fiskars brand drill in the beginning and have had them replace it 5 times so far - they now say it isn't THEIR lifetime warranty listed on the package. Even with the many replacements it was not worth the money or the hassle. The gears strip so fast! I bought a block plane that was trash. In fact, my first plane was a modern Stanley No5 that someone was throwing out. Brand new! Not even sharpened yet! Mouth jammed with a big splinter of paint and pine. I thought I was the clever one for knowing it needed sharpening before use so I took it home and sharpened it. It still sucked. I read up online and discovered the world of hand tools via posts and blogs on fettling old planes. Turns out this new plane was so poorly cast it was unlikely to ever be a fine tool. It is a good scrub plane, though. Still have to trade out the plastic happy meal totes for some wood ones. So, cheap new tools with moving parts are bad in my experience.

I could go on even more but I think I've used up all the letters in my computer's tank. Sorry for the length, I hope this helps.

[Brian Holcombe]

Lots of great advice there. One of the lessons I learned both racing cars and working in a machine shop were that there is a major difference in quality at the average 'borg' as they call it here, and a real supplier. The difference is critical here as it was there but for different reasons.

[Jim Koepke]

I could go on even more but I think I've used up all the letters in my computer's tank. Sorry for the length, I hope this helps.

Fitzhugh,

I am sure anyone new to woodworking reading your post would have preferred your going on.

The world is changing, anyone who did not have the opportunity to learn woodworking in shop now has the internet to help them.

jtk

[Ron D Davis]

Ftizhugh
You could have went on as long as you wanted too, this is the kind of help us newbies need. I really appreciate it and now that the weather is better I plan on getting started on the bench. I have no mentor and this is why I like the forum, and especially the nice folks like yourself who take the time to explain things in terms we can understand. Its late but I will pm you at a later date and thank you very much for your post.
Ron