Bandsaw question: Aluminum wheels or Cast Iron

[Don Roberson II]

I'm looking at the Grizzly 555 series & wondered what the differences in wheels (aluminum vs. iron) are.
Any info pros or cons on either one would be greatly appreciated

[John McClanahan]

Most folks feel the cast iron wheels are stronger, but there are plenty of saws out there with aluminum wheels. I don't buy into the claim that cast iron wheels improve the power. Cast iron does however extend the startup and shutdown time. I have a 17" Grizzly with aluminum wheels at home and use a 19" Grizzly with cast iron wheels at work. I don't see any real difference in usability.


John

[Rod Sheridan]

The main determinant of wheter the saw is a good one, is how much engineering, fabrication and quality control went into it, rather than what the wheels are made of.

There are very good saws with cast iron wheels, very good saws with aluminum wheels, and the majority of bandsaws seem to be pieces of junk with any assortment of parts built to the lowest price.............Rod.

[Chris Fournier]

CI wheels all the way. They act as flywheels and store more energy than aluminum wheels of the same size. If you are cutting 3/4" material this may not be a big deal but if you are resawing it is a huge deal. CI all the way.

[Rod Sheridan]

Chris, the stored energy will be consumed in seconds, once you're a few seconds into the cut, the motor has to provide 100% of the power, so yes for a punch press the storage of the energy is helpful, not much though when making a minute long cut.........Rod.

[John Coloccia]

That's not quite true, Rod. The real advantage of the cast iron is it damps the small speed oscillations due to inconsistent feed and material, even in a minute long cut. If I had a choice, all things being equal, I think the heavier the better.

[Chris Fournier]

That's not quite true, Rod. The real advantage of the cast iron is it damps the small speed oscillations due to inconsistent feed and material, even in a minute long cut. If I had a choice, all things being equal, I think the heavier the better.

Yes and anyone who has resawn alot with both aluminum and CI wheels would agree.

[Rod Sheridan]

Well Chris, I would disagree, I've used old large bandsaws with aluminum wheels and found they cut just as well as the cast iron ones...........Rod.

[David Kumm]

Cast iron wheels on steel frame saws. Aluminum- at least on top- on the old cast iron frame saws. Dave

[johnny means]

More mass equals more inertia, plain and simple. Greater inertia means more consistent velocity. Cast iron wheels wIth their greater velocity create a stronger buffer between the material and the motor. Imagine swinging a 20oz hammer versus a kitchen ladle. Same motor, but one will go through a cinder block and one won't.

[Phil Thien]

I'm with Rod, I'd invest in a larger motor before cast iron wheels

[Chris Fournier]

Well Chris, I would disagree, I've used old large bandsaws with aluminum wheels and found they cut just as well as the cast iron ones...........Rod.

He's asking about a 14" bandsaw Rod, not a "large old bandsaw". It's simple physics. He also didn't ask if he should get CI wheels or a larger motor. He asked if CI wheels would be better than aluminum wheels on a 14" BS and the answer is yes.

By all means anyone who wants a BS would do well to get as large a motor as they can afford and as big a saw as they can manage. On that saw they will be better served with CI wheels.

[Mike Cutler]

I'm with the CI folks on this one.
All things being equal, I'd rather have CI wheels, than aluminum.

[Carroll Courtney]

I don't know nothing about the physics and I can't back my opinion with #'s or quots from Shakespere but I have a Delta/Mil 14" with cast aluminum wheels,and PM 141 w/CI I have to say there is a big difference between which one sounds solid and cuts solid,awhole lot less vibration.Is it due to the wheels only,no but it helps,if one saw is cheaper cause of the wheels then other then there is a reason.Now,the aluminum wheels may already have a crown built into them and the CI ones may not,that also another area to check into.What ever you pick post some pics love looking at old and new machines----Carroll

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> Cast iron does however extend the startup and shutdown time.

That's because the cast iron wheels are heavier and have more mass therefore have more inertia. It also requires more power to bring them up to speed.

[Mike Heidrick]

Which ever has the most mass in the wheels if this is a wheel only question.

[Mike Heidrick]

Well Chris, I would disagree, I've used old large bandsaws with aluminum wheels and found they cut just as well as the cast iron ones...........Rod.

If that same saw had the same wheels in CI I wonder if you could see a difference?? You like nice tools so I bet that really helps too.

[Phil Thien]

>>>> Cast iron does however extend the startup and shutdown time.

That's because the cast iron wheels are heavier and have more mass therefore have more inertia. It also requires more power to bring them up to speed.

That is a double-edge sword. Inertia lost to cutting requires more energy to replace. There is no free lunch here.

My thinking is that, if you're relying on the inertia of the wheels, your motor is undersized. I wouldn't consider added wheel mass any more than I'd consider adding a flywheel to my table saw. If you want more cutting capacity, a larger motor is a better way to get you there.

Chris Fournier brings up a good point, though: A bigger motor wasn't an option.

Chris, you're right. Given your interpretation of the question, I'd go with cast iron wheels.

[Erik Loza]

He's asking about a 14" bandsaw Rod, not a "large old bandsaw". It's simple physics. He also didn't ask if he should get CI wheels or a larger motor. He asked if CI wheels would be better than aluminum wheels on a 14" BS and the answer is yes.

By all means anyone who wants a BS would do well to get as large a motor as they can afford and as big a saw as they can manage. On that saw they will be better served with CI wheels.

I agree with this as well ^^^

In a perfect world, every BS would have super-heavy cast iron flywheels but what if we're talking about a 110V machine for making bandsaw boxes or something like that? Aluminum could actually make more sense for him. In a perfect world, we all would all have plenty of 220V service, a small BS for little projects and then another big, iron-wheeled machine for resawing. But that's a perfect world.

Did the OP ever discuss what type of work he plans to do with this machine? That's the real question.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[John McClanahan]

There was a time when aluminum was less common and more costly than cast iron. Iron foundries and machine shops were common place. It made sense to use cast iron. Thats why old machines use so much cast iron.

I agree with Phil. If mass was important, why don't saws have flywheels?


John

[Don Roberson II]

Thanks for all of the input
I now have a 12" Craftsman BS that is a POS & I am sick of it. Its loud, horrible runout even on 1/4" plywood, bearings are shot & I would rather junk it & buy new
No intentions of doing major resawing. Just want something to rough in turnings for my lathe & smaller misc. work.

[Don Roberson II]

There are 5 different versions of the 555 series Grizzly. 2 have aluminum & 3 have Iron. Just wondered why the difference

[Craig Hoehn]

Cast iron is heavier and has better internal dampening which makes it ideal for machine components (less vibration means a smooth cut). Some people might say they cant feel a difference (which may be true on a high quality saw with aluminum wheels) but there would be a measurable difference if we are talking the same size wheels. I'm not aware of any high quality saws that use aluminum wheels since the very fact that using aluminum wheels is a sign of poor engineering.

Edit: To those of you saying that inertia doesn't matter and you need a larger motor if you want a steady cut: The very fact that you have a 120 or 220 V electric motor causes vibrations. Torque output changes as a function of the motor angle. Having a flywheel with a large inertia helps smooth out the power and reduces the torque osculations.

[Jamie Lynch]

In my somewhat limited experience with bandsaws I have found CI wheel'd saws to run smoother. Of course the aluminum wheeled saw I have experience with is a Central machinery with the motor mount heavily modified just to make it usable (though after 13+ years it's still making sawdust). My CI wheel'd saw is a Laguna Lt18. So it's kind of apples and oranges.
From all the feedback from friends and what I read on the creek, the G0555 series of saws are great. And for strictly rough/misc work I am sure any of that range will handle the task without any problems. Just make sure to keep it properly tuned and a sharp blade installed.

[Edward Oleen]

I've got two things to say on the subject:

Firstly: CI is stiffer and denser than Al, and will withstand the varying demands of sawing wood: remember that wood is a "natural" product, and even within the same piece of wood there will be spots of varying density. This places a varying load on the blade, which is transferred to the wheels, which respond, in part by flexing. Flexing is a no-no, because it just makes the problem worse. CI, being denser and stronger than Al will resist the varying load much better. And being heavier it has more of a flywheel effect, which cuts down on the varying load on the motor, which doesn't like varying loads either.

Secondly: the man with the most knowledge of band saws that I know about, Louis A.Iturra, of Iturra Design, says to go with CI. His Mightiness has spoken. I don't quarrel with the anointed expert and authority.

Skip the Al - it is a cheap substitute for the real thing. Like having a blow-up doll instead of a wife.

[David Kumm]

Keep in mind here that the overall quality of the saw frame, bearings, motor and guides will be a bigger factor in your results than what the wheels are made out of. The wheels may be an indication of the quality of the saw but not necessarily. Cast iron solid wheels are a method to dampen vibration with steel frame saws as the frame transmits rather than dampens vibration. Spoked cast iron are the next step down. Cast iron frame saws don't need that and the best saws often used AL, Steel, or cast iron or a combination of both. Find a 14" in good shape with balanced wheels and a decent motor with no vibration and the wheels will be less important. It will likely have spoked cast iron as that is most common. Dave

[Mark Andrew]

The "all else being equal" part is misleading to me, because unless you take the same saw and swap the wheels, all else is NOT equal. I would expect a saw with balanced aluminum wheels to perform better than a similarly sized saw with cast iron wheels that have never been balanced. Or even cast aluminum, never been balanced. But a saw with machined & balanced cast iron, I would expect that to beat aluminum, machined and balanced or not.

I had a Ridgid 14", and it was an absolute pain, because of vibration. A well known issue. Yet others with the same saw found it to be perfectly smooth. Thus the variations in components and quality control between one saw and the next, or one batch and the next make the "all else being equal" a non-starter for me. I now have a Grizzly 513, and it is much, much better. Aluminum wheels or not :)

[Bill White]

I'm very pleased with my 0555LX w/cast iron wheels. Not gettin' into the physics, just a happy camper.
Bill

[Brian W Smith]

Probably shouldn't respond...oh well.

In our shop,make the 14" wheels aluminum.The duty cycle of our 14 is almost always less than 2 minutes.....with multiple startups per minute/hour.It needs to start quick....rundown time isn't at issue here.Cast iron has many advantages,but for our 14,the disadvantages outweigh them.The big BS has the opposite.Different shop may have a completely different criteria?

More of....really shouldn't mention this stuff.Ya'll are making some pretty big assumptions on CI "quality".Maybe in the good ole days....but when discussing price point equipment nowadays,it's easier to machine and predict aluminum "behavior" than CI.

[Don Roberson II]

Well I took the plunge & bought the G0555lx. It will be here tomorrow. It has Iron wheels. It was 6 of 1 & half a dozen of the other reasons on which way to go. I think I would've been happy either way I went. I want to thank everybody for their knowledgeable input on this matter.

[Brian W Smith]

Cool Don,am sure you'll get lots of good service from it.We have a bunch of Grizz equip here.......and run the livin heck out of them.Really pay attention to your blade specs and quality.Work on dust/chip evac and try to keep the tyres from crusting over with wood buildup.Best,BW

[Charles Wiggins]

CI wheels all the way. They act as flywheels and store more energy than aluminum wheels of the same size. If you are cutting 3/4" material this may not be a big deal but if you are resawing it is a huge deal. CI all the way.

This is more or less what I was going to say, and John Coloccia's comment about the dampening makes sense as well.

If I were going to use it for cutting shapes in flat stock like a scroll saw I would not mind aluminum, but for resawing, CI all the way.

[John Coloccia]

The thing with the damping is more subtle than it seems. You can't just consider the bandsaw speed, You have to consider what happens to the blade, and the structure, when the bandsaw is loaded. Under load, the motor on the bottom wheel keeps pulling, and it puts pressure on the wood. Think about this...the bottom wheel is pulling the band through the wood, and it will slow down to some degree because of the load. This actually DECREASES the tension on the blade because the top wheel keeps moving. So the frame relaxes...and that sets up an oscillation, and that's the oscillation you see when you run a big blade on a small machine. The frame keeps flexing back and forth, the saw shakes, and nothing works right. That bottom wheel should be as heavy as possible to have the most consistent tension on the blade.

And the more I think about it, the more I think that the top wheel should actually be as light as possible to respond to whatever load the saw is seeing as quickly as possible. I wonder if it wouldn't be optimal to have a very heavy drive wheel, and a very light idler? Does anyone do this?

Calling Erik Loza... What's the scoop? Am I thinking about it wrong?

[Brian W Smith]

"unsprung weight"

[Gus Dundon]

Band saw wheels that fabricated from cast irons have more mass andbetter for damping vibration. But I never have aluminum so I can't tell the difference.

[Phil Thien]

Under load, the motor on the bottom wheel keeps pulling, and it puts pressure on the wood. Think about this...the bottom wheel is pulling the band through the wood, and it will slow down to some degree because of the load. This actually DECREASES the tension on the blade because the top wheel keeps moving.

All the wheels (accounting for three and four wheelers) are moving at exactly the same rate of speed as the blade.

Any force on the blade great enough to actually cause a tension imbalance would likely just cause the blade to break.

[John Coloccia]

I don't think so. The cut side of the blade sees a decrease in tension, at least at the top of the cut, and the slack part of the blade sees an overall increase in tension as the top wheel keeps pulling and the bottom wheel slows down. It's a very dynamic system, IMHO.

[John McClanahan]

I don't think so. The cut side of the blade sees a decrease in tension, at least at the top of the cut, and the slack part of the blade sees an overall increase in tension as the top wheel keeps pulling and the bottom wheel slows down. It's a very dynamic system, IMHO.


If this were true, wouldn't cast iron wheels cause this to happen to a greater degree than aluminum?


John

[John Coloccia]

If this were true, wouldn't cast iron wheels cause this to happen to a greater degree than aluminum?


John

That's my point. I'm starting to think that a heavy drive wheel and a light idler is really the optimum configuration, but I wonder if I'm thinking about it the right way and if I haven't left something important out.

[Jim German]

Just to clarify, rotational inertia and mass are not the same thing. The inertia is a result of not just the mass but how it is distributed around the wheel. You could have two wheels that have the same mass, but vastly different inertia depending on where the mass is. If most of the material is on the rim of the wheel you're going to have a much higher inertia than if its evenly distributed. Therefore you can make an aluminum and a cast iron wheel with the same inertia, or the same mass or both. If they are designed well either a cast iron or an aluminum wheel should work equally well.

[Frank Drew]

I'm not aware of any high quality saws that use aluminum wheels since the very fact that using aluminum wheels is a sign of poor engineering.

Are you sure about that? Haven't Tannewitz and some of the other makers of large machines used aluminum wheels?

[Erik Loza]

I feel like we are over-thinking this. I can guarantee you 100%, for example, that no engineer for a bandsaw mfr'er has ever sat down and designing things from the physics perspective. At least none I have ever talked to. They engineer things from a cost perspective first, then everything else, second. In order to make any money, bandsaws need to sell in high volume and in order to sell in high volume, price point is the top concern. Not engineering. Why do you think Italian bandsaw brand "A" went out of business? Great engineering but too expensive.

In fact, I think there is basically no thought to engineering beyond "make sure it fits right" to the actual design of contemporary bandsaws. Because if there was thought, we would not see things like crowned tires, a spine which you can UNBOLT in two and insert a block into, or machines being sold as resaw machines with flimsy fences and guide bars or super lightweight flywheels. But we do. And we do because that's what folks are willing to pay for.

I had a conversation with a customer once. The gentleman was an engineer and ran through a whole list of things he felt should have been improved about the MM16. My response was, "Sure, I can do anything you want but are you willing to you pay twice as much for it? Because that's what it's now going to cost.". Anyway, the whole point is that bandsaws are pretty simple machines and it's a design which is hard to screw up. We could debate the merits of aluminum versus cast iron flywheels til' the cows come home but does it matter? If all the guy can afford is a 14" saw with aluminum wheels and a 110V motor, then aluminum is best for him. The only "best" that matters is the customer's, not the engineer's.

My 2-cents as always,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Jim German]

They engineer things from a cost perspective first, then everything else, second.

That's depressing. Is there no-one out there like Festool making Bandsaws? Where they are more concerned with quality than cost?

[Duane Meadows]

I agree with Erik completely. There also is a point of diminishing returns. Doubling the cost for a 2% improvement in performance for most of us is not a viable option! And it is, after all wood we are working with. Metal working machines do work to much tighter tolerances, and the price reflects that.

Depressing? Not to me.. realistic is more like it.

[Phil Thien]

That's depressing. Is there no-one out there like Festool making Bandsaws? Where they are more concerned with quality than cost?

I respect Erik's opinion. But I know plenty of engineers that approach things differently than fixating on price. Most of the engineers with whom I've worked want to balance cost with performance, they want to deliver value.

On a philosophical/logical level, many of these types of threads (aluminum vs. cast iron) may indicate there is little to no benefit of one over the other. And that is because no clear consensus with hard facts emerges. We have some that say CI is better, others that say aluminum is just as good, others pointing to old-iron saws that used aluminum, still others that indicate why a lighter flywheel may be a benefit (easier startup on the motor), and still others that ponder whether CI would be better for the bottom, and aluminum on top. There have really been no posts indicating evidence that saws with crowned aluminum wheels are insufficient for resawing, etc.

So forget science and facts, we can't even get to a consensus.

So while we would all universally agree that a cabinet saw with a 3-HP motor would outperform a similar saw with a 1-1/2-HP motor, and could point to the science that would backup that claim, there is nothing quite so concrete in the debate over the material from which a bandsaw wheel is made. When it comes to cast iron vs. aluminum, things get quite a bit more touchy-feely.

So bandsaws with crowned aluminum wheels have proven sufficient and that is why they will continue to be employed by engineers trying to deliver value to the consumer.

Just my two cents.

[Erik Loza]

That's depressing. Is there no-one out there like Festool making Bandsaws? Where they are more concerned with quality than cost?

Jim, it's not that mfr's aren't concerned with cost over quality: There are lots of quality bandsaws out there. But comparing bandsaws to jobsite machines, Festool or otherwise, is apples to oranges and the laws of marketing do not apply equally to both. Whereas you could (and probably will) buy quite a few Festool products for your shop, I will only ever sell you one bandsaw. In other words, Festool (or Bosch/Milwaukee/Ryobi/whoever...) has the opportunity to continually stay in your wallet by bringing in new items, add-ons, etc. With a bandsaw, you buy it once and you're done and that's magnified for those of us who deal in Italian machines because I have no need to sell you a riser block, a quick release, or other add-ons like that. Why do you think, for example, that a couple of well-known dealers of Euro-made bandsaws here in the US really push you on their guides, aftermarket fences, blades, extension tables, and other value-added accessories? It's because they realize that folks will only pay so much for a bandsaw and that they need to find other ways to drive the revenue stream if that's what the customer is shopping for.

A really good example of this is a well-known dealership in SoCal who also offers Italian saws. I remember when that was all they dealt in but as the market changed and folks were more and more hesitant to pay big money for a top-tier bandsaw, they minimized the number of Italian machines in their lineup and shifted primarily toward budget-oriented Asian machines. Why? Because that's what folks will pay for.

Hope this makes sense,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Tai Fu]

Assuming that motor size on both machines are the same (same brand and type and HP of motor, so to eliminate different definition of a HP), would a Italian Laguna LT18 perform even 50% better than a Grizzly G0514x2?

I would bet it's only 10% better at best, yet the Laguna will cost more than twice as much. Grizzly G0514x2 is already pretty good...

[Erik Loza]

Tai, here is the real question though: "Better", how?.....

I hear what you are asking but there is no way to quantify "better" without knowing what the operator expects from the machine.

If the operator's only expectation is to be able to cut bandsaw boxes or make templates for his router projects, then your logic is absolutely right. On the other hand, though, if the owner's expectation is to be able to run a 1"+ carbide blade and rip big lumber all day long, then even if the price of that other machine were 50% less, if he can't get the results he expects, then no discount is good enough. Right?

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Rob Damon]

I know the OP has already made his choice. I have a PM1800 w/CI and a Pm 14" w/CI. I have had in the early years the Craftsman bandsaw w/ALUM. They all cut the wood that I was using at the time.

To me, if I was budget constraint, I would rather spend the money on getting the higher quality blades than worrying about the CI/Alum wheel cost difference. Once you have a machine with the horsepower to handle the wood size you are planning on cutting, to me the blade makes more difference at that point.

Rob

[Tai Fu]

But what prevents a Grizzly G0514x2 user from installing 1" carbide blade on it and rip big lumber all day? I mean you can't realistically run any blade bigger than 1" on a 18" saw anyways and if I really wanted to run 2" carbide blades and rip lumber all day, I'd go for a 24" bandsaw rather than 18" where the blade life is going to be much better. My assumption is as long as you got enough horsepower and good, sharp blades I doubt the difference is going to be that much...

[Rob Damon]

I mean you can't realistically run any blade bigger than 1" on a 18" saw anyways".

I have had a 1-1/2" blades on the PM1800 for several years... but the PM has a strong 5 hp motor. I only use it for resawing. .Rob

[Bill Rhodus]

Don, I just replaced an early 60's craftsman 12 bandsaw with Grizzly's "Ultimate" 555 bandsaw that they were running a special on. This was a significant upgrade in a variety of ways; larger capacity, machining that was better than the old saw, and better guides. Don't overthink the ci vs al issue with the wheels; either will work fine on a saw this size. I used the Craftsman, and now the Grizzly to perform everyday woodworking functions up to resawing 6" material. These saws are fine for this and inexpensive to operate. For anything larger than this I use a 24" bandsaw I built from surplus parts collected from many years of installing and maintaining sawmill machinery.
I saw a post concerning the inertia of the ci wheels lessening the tension of the band just above the material being cut; this phenomenon is a reality and has been researched by manufacturers of sawmill machinery and there should be videos on the net showing the use of a strobe and still frame photography to depict this happening. With that being said, this is a concern for a 8" to 12" wide x .040 to .060 bandsaws that have logs hitting the saw @ speeds of 200/300 fpm and not one likely to be found in our home shops.

[Phil Thien]

I saw a post concerning the inertia of the ci wheels lessening the tension of the band just above the material being cut; this phenomenon is a reality and has been researched by manufacturers of sawmill machinery and there should be videos on the net showing the use of a strobe and still frame photography to depict this happening. With that being said, this is a concern for a 8" to 12" wide x .040 to .060 bandsaws that have logs hitting the saw @ speeds of 200/300 fpm and not one likely to be found in our home shops.

Are there any good links to information like that, or any good links to giant bandmills in general?

I remember doing some searching a couple of years ago but didn't seem to find much in the way of information on them. I do remember finding a page where one guy was talking about them and said rough generalizations were all that was possible because they tended to be custom and purpose built.

Any good links or books on sawmills would be a good read, AFAIC.

[Art Mann]

I currently use a Craftsman 14 inch welded steel bandsaw that is the identical twin of a previously sold Rikon. As I recall, I gave $350 for it new as a closeout. I originally bought it to cut out patterns for pattern routing of furniture panels. It will resaw a little over 9 inches. It has a wimpy 1 horsepower motor. I have used it time and time again to resaw walnut and white oak, among other woods, to build keepsake boxes and make veneer. This humble machine does what I needed and the result is indistinguishable from expensive European machines. I am currently shopping for a new band saw (with cast iron wheels) because I want one that is more enjoyable to use. It isn't really a question of whether a cheap saw with aluminum wheels will do the job but rather how much you want to pay for fast smooth operation and easy setup. If I were financially challenged, I would keep using my old one and divert the funds to more essential equipment and materials.