Need Advice on Band saw purchase: Grizzly GO513X2 vs. the new Laguna 1412 [Archive]

Patrick Curry

02-14-2014, 10:07 AM

Hi all, new member but longtime browser of the forum. I'm close to pulling the trigger on a new bandsaw. It will be the only BS in the shop so versatility and ease to swap blades is a consideration.

My needs will include resawing rough cut lumber and I can live with 12" to 13" max but I'll also use the saw for smaller figured cuts.

I considered the Rikon 325 but then 'talked myself' into spending a little more for the Grizzly GO513X2. And, then along came the Laguna 1412. Now I'm back to consider a 14". Maybe some of you can personally relate to this process, but I'm starting to run circles. This seems to happen to me on 'big' purchases but I'm usually happy in the end.

Any comments or thoughts are welcomed but specifically I'd like some opinions on the difference in wheel sizes and also max blade sizes between the Laguna 1412 and the larger Grizzly17". The actual difference (diameter) between the cast iron wheels is 1.75" if I recall correctly. The Laguna will take a 3/4" blade and the Grizzly a 1" blade. Past forum posts have left me with the impression that BSs' won't always track their max rated bands correctly , so not sure what to make with max blade ratings.

I don't have hands on experience with either of these BS, and since the Laguna is a new model I'm guessing not many will. But knowing the difference in sizes between these two models (specifically the wheels and max blade sizes) would I be foolish not to go with the 'larger' Grizzly for resaw purposes? The reviews on the Laguna report the saw does a very fine job with resawing, but I'm left wondering if the two were compared side by side, would one stand above the other for this function?

I understand the Laguna 'fit and finish' may be in a class of its own (among the saws I could afford). That has some appeal but I'm trying to be practical in this decision process. Trying to look past this unless it adds functionality to the saw. Trying to visualize both as nothing more than BS silhouettes of saw dust:)

One last point that I've spent time comparing is the ceramic vs ball bearing guides. I've gathered that most prefer the Laguna guides, especially for detailed figure cuts.

Thanks!!! Love this site and all the info I've gathered from the members over the years. Already glad I registered.

Patrick

Augusto Orosco

02-14-2014, 12:03 PM

I do have the Laguna 1412 and am very happy with it. Unfortunately, I really can't help you with comparisons, since this is the first bandsaw I have every used. Also, if you have seen the thread on the 1412 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?207965-Any-experience-with-new-Laguna-14-12-bandsaw) there might be two or three here at SMC, including me, who have purchased the saw. One has been having some troubles with the machine (not a US purchase though). On the other hand, I have read very positive reviews on PW and FWW about the saw (with the usual caveats about magazine reviews, of course, where conflicts of interest are hard to avoid)

In my case, I can attest for the nice fit and finish, smooth operation and performance. Also, although I have a 1/2 blade on it, I am sure it can take a 3/4" blade. Hope I could help you more, but that's all I have to compare to.

Good luck!

Sam Beagle

02-14-2014, 12:18 PM

I will also be watching this thread very carefully, I'm actually in the same position exactly as the poster. I'm looking at the same 2 machines. I live like a half hour from a monster grizzly facility in PA. So that is the only thing I like better at the moment. The Laguna seems to have unlimited upside. Sam

Andrew Gold

02-14-2014, 12:43 PM

One of the really hard things about shopping (or at least for me) for equipment like this is it's basically impossible to directly compare models from different companies. You can compare the specs and the like, and compare experiences from different end users, but basically no one will have real hands on experience with both machines...

It's frustrating, as often the devil is in the details and it would be nice to see what folks think after using comparable machines for extended periods of time.

Frank Martin

02-14-2014, 1:22 PM

I have no experience with either machine. However, I will offer the following. Laguna has some thought leadership when it comes to bandsaw innovation. For example, they have arguably the best guides in the industry. One can probably say the same for the Driftmaster fence. Of course both of these can be adapted to other machines as aftermarket accessories. As for Grizzly, I had only one machine, while initially satisfied, I was very happy the day I sold it. This is not a bash at Grizzly, it is just that they are made for a price point which allows affordability for many woodworkers, but the trade off in quality is as expected there.

If you are not in a hurry, I would suggest you wait for an Italian machine in the used market. I had purchased a Laguna 16HD years ago used, then never used it for 5 years and sold it again. In a few months got back into woodworking with more time and had an opportunity to buy an almost unused Agazzani 18" bandsaw for $1,200. So, they are there, but not very common.

Patrick Curry

02-14-2014, 1:28 PM

Thank you, Augusto. Glad to hear your happy with it, and thanks for the info on the blade size.

Stan Mitchell

02-14-2014, 1:30 PM

I happen have the Grizzly GO513X2 and am pleased with it.

After having used a 17" for several years now, I wouldn't want to go any smaller - in fact - there have been times when I wish I had 24" saw.

A 17" swing is nice - but I've had to flip pieces over to avoid hitting the post on some projects.

Executive Summary - bigger is better in my opinion.

Michael Mahan

02-14-2014, 1:33 PM

Don't just go with Laguna because of the guides &/or the Laguna Driftmaster fence, cause both of those can be put on most all of the other quality Band Saws ,
I'm in the process of putting the ceramics guides & the DriftMaster on my Italian MiniMax 20"
Frank is right take a hard look at the Italian Band saws ,they are the best made

Patrick Curry

02-14-2014, 1:33 PM

Yeah, and since I don't have hrs of experience under my belt with a BS of either size it's not going to be a lot of help for me to go over to my local WoodCrafters and give the Laguna a test run. For me anyway, you don't start to appreciate the finer details between two machines (both of quality) until spending hours with it.

I'm kind of hoping that someone can speak to the differences between wheel sizes and that .25" max blade size for resawing. I've read before where contributors put a great emphasis on the both, but these two machines are fairly close. If it's not going to make much difference, I'll go with the 1412.

Patrick Curry

02-14-2014, 1:39 PM

That's about my price point, and I'm not at a standstill without a BS, so maybe that's something to consider. I'm also in the process of picking up an 8" joiner and that's the necessity for the current work on my schedule. BTW, I'm going with Grizzly on that one. Based on pricing, I don't really have an option.

Do you mind me asking where to look for these Italian BS? For that price, I'm guessing you were able to pick it up and avoid delivery expense? I'm in Louisville, KY...it's not a small town but its unlikely that I'd find one locally or even a few hrs of windshield time.

Chris Merriam

02-14-2014, 5:24 PM

I was in a similar situation as you, just with a larger class of saw, I was ready to spend 2-3k. I looked at the Laguna 14, 18LTE, and 16HD, the Grizzly GO514X2 and the Minimax MM16. I spent days and days reading posts all over the internet about these saws. I'd read one post and make a decision, then read another and change my mind. I was able to finally draw some conclusions:

-Any Laguna saw that is not an "HD" is not made in Italy, they are made in Asia, just like Grizzly is
-I really like the Laguna guides and their tool-fee adjustability
-I really like the appearance and features of the Laguna line. They just "look cool". I've never seen a Grizzly in person to compare.
-Laguna went through a period of poor customer service several years ago, but things seem to be better now
-Grizzly is suppose to have excellent customer service

I ended up getting an MM16, deciding to pay more but hopefully buy a saw for life and never worry about upgrading again. But being able to see the Laguna saws in person gave them a LOT of positive weight for me, I really liked them. For me though, I decided to go with who had the better customer service record. By the way, the Lexington Woodcraft store has the Laguna saws in case you haven't seen them in person (the 14/12 and 14SUV)

Oh, one other point regarding 14in wheels that I read, a 16in wheel seems to be about the minimum recommended for running the Lenox carbide tipped blades.

You're welcome to drive over and check out my new saw if you want to get a feel for what a higher end Italian saw looks like, just don't expect me to be an expert on it, I just got it and it's my first big bandsaw.

Art Mann

02-14-2014, 7:24 PM

Patrick Walls

02-14-2014, 8:26 PM

I had the Grizzly 550 extreme band saw. It was a good saw. It was not fantastic. It was underpowered (in my opinion) and had tracking issues until I bought better tires for the wheels (urethane) and installed them. I also bought the carter guides. It was a decent saw for the money. I sold it a while back and right now I am waiting for delivery of my Laguna 1412 band saw with great excitement. I am counting on this saw being so much better (I bought the Laguna Wood King blade) that I do not intend to buy a table saw this time around and instead will buy a drum sander fro SuperMax. I also have the Laguna 2 hp dust collector on order that should be shipping very soon. I will post a report on both after I get them.
Pat

Michael Mahan

02-14-2014, 8:26 PM

For those of you who advise waiting for a good used Italian made band saw, I must say that I have followed Craigslist and other used tool markets for over 10 years and I have yet to see a single saw as you describe within practical driving distance. I expect my situation is typical. I have been looking for a used classic cabinet saw and I found two in 2013, both of which were over priced. :( I suspect my situation is pretty typical.that goes how good a value the Italian Band Saws & the Classic Cabinet Saws are ,
great machines are held on to & not up graded ,
the only time they are sold used is a bankruptcy , death or divorce .
They hold their resale value as well

Jay Gargiulo

02-14-2014, 8:38 PM

I have a 1412 and unfortunately have been unsatisfied with it. There's something wrong with it, but after several hours on the phone with Laguna's customer service, we're still not totally sure what it is. My current theory the guide post is not square, but I honestly have no idea. It doesn't track consistently and won't resaw anything more than 6" or 7" reliably, and even that takes a very careful setup.

The CS has been responsive but not always great. They have sent me a number of blades because they thought that the first Resaw King I bought was improperly sharpened, however the first time they sent them, they were 125" instead of 115". They said they would re-send them but the order got mixed up and I ended up waiting about three weeks for new blades, which still didn't solve the problem. More recently, I requested to speak with one employee who was particularly helpful but they insisted I talk to someone else who I had spoken with before but was not nearly as knowledgeable as the other guy. They follow up and go through the motions, but most of the reps will give you stock responses even if you have gone through the process before.

I read numerous positive reviews before I bought mine and was convinced that it was a great deal at the price point, but now I'm regretting not buying something closer to premium like the Hammer 4400 or MM16. As for Grizzly, I share a shop with my uncle and he bought a bunch of Grizzly tools when he first started and we are now replacing them one by one with higher quality tools.

More than likely, I got an oddball from the factory that has a problem that is not fixable with basic setup tweaks but I just wanted to share my experience. If you can afford to buy something better, or could even save up for a while for it, I would seriously consider it.

Frank Martin

02-14-2014, 9:51 PM

Do you mind me asking where to look for these Italian BS? For that price, I'm guessing you were able to pick it up and avoid delivery expense? I'm in Louisville, KY...it's not a small town but its unlikely that I'd find one locally or even a few hrs of windshield time.

I live in Los Angeles and both saws were within 1 hr of drive time to me, so I just picked them up. If these are not available in your local market, then this may not be a good option for you.

Cary Falk

02-14-2014, 11:55 PM

I have the G0513X2 and I am very pleased with it. I have never heard anything bad about the 513 or the 514. I wouldn't go Grizzly across the board but they do make bandsaws among other things. The fit and finish of my saw was excellent. I looked at the Laguna in Woodcraft some time ago and can't say that I was blown away. I tried in the past to get some info on some tools from Laguna and it was not a pleasant experience. I gave up. Grizzly has great customer service. I hear a 1" blade is hard to get on the G0513. I couldn't tell you because I am running a 5/8". I would also look at the 18" Rikon. I hear great things about it and it goes on sale about twice a year.

Charles Coolidge

02-15-2014, 2:12 AM

As you research your options call the manufacturers and make sure you understand the country of origin so you know what you are paying for. Grill them, the saw, the motor, ask if there are any components that are manufactured outside the state country of origin. What I have found buying a bunch of machines over the past year is some brands are selling the same Asian manufactured machines as the next brand but charging a huge premium in price. Not in every case but in many cases you are just paying for the name and are no longer getting the quality that was once associated with that brand. One top brand machine was $1,000 more than my Grizzly, when pressed to explain what I would be getting for that extra $1,000 they couldn't come up with a single feature, same castings made in the same factory, even the same China motor.

That said I purchased a Grizzly G0514X2B that I have been pretty happy with. Its not flawless. No machine I have purchased in the last year has been and that includes a couple of the Yellow machines. Balance is pretty good and could be improved further with tuning and a link belt. Fit and finish were quite good but there is a small issue with the table pin. When comparing Grizzly band saws pay particular attention to the differences between the model you are looking at and the next few models above it. In my case the difference between the G0514X2 and the next model up my G0514X2B was an electronic motor brake AND the higher quality all cast iron tall fence and solid steel rail vs the short combo cast iron/aluminum fence and aluminum rail on the G0514X2. In some cases jumping up a model or two in Grizzly's line up makes sense, in other cases its not worth it so be sure you know exactly what the differences are between the model below and above what you are looking at. Sometimes this means studying the pictures and paging through the manuals. Some of the feature lists on the web sight don't bother pointing out some of the differences or they say they are the same as in the case with the two different fences.

http://www.coolidgeamps.com/pics/b9.jpg

http://www.coolidgeamps.com/pics/b10.jpg

Note the saw comes with black plastic hand wheels, I swapped them out for some chrome/cast iron wheels.

http://www.coolidgeamps.com/pics/b31.jpg

Cary Falk

02-15-2014, 3:34 AM

I replaced my handwheels with those also. I figured I was the only one that didn't like plastic. I made 2 aluminum knobs to replace the ones on the back of the upper wheel. As soon as I can figure the best way to mill the weird slot, I am replacing the 2 on the doors.

Guy Belleman

02-15-2014, 4:52 AM

After dealing with a 14" saw for years, the move to the 17" G0513 took me once again to ask, "Self, why did you wait so long?" I run the 3/4" Woodslicer. Runs smooth and has cut everything I wanted it too. I really like the quick tension release and the tracking and tension meter windows. I also roll mine around almost exactly like Charles' above.

John Coloccia

02-15-2014, 5:28 AM

Fit and finish were quite good but there is a small issue with the table pin.

Didn't line up, did it? Mine didn't either. I spent some time with a chainsaw file to make it fit.

Scott Stafford

02-15-2014, 6:16 AM

I want to first of all say that I have no experience with Grizzly equipment; I have never owned a piece.

I have owned Laguna and want to make my experience very clear... if you need customer service, you are on your own. Do not expect any help after you have paid for the product. They will not return your phone calls.

Please Google "Laguna customer service" before making your purchase.

Now on the other hand if you call Laguna and express the smallest interest in buying a new saw, they will call you daily for months trying to pressure you to buy their saw.

Scott in Montana

Ruhi Arslan

02-15-2014, 8:35 AM

Please Google "Laguna customer service" before making your purchase.

OK. I did. Comes up with five links. Newest one is from 2012. One is complaining of the Owner's wife being a stuck up Brit which is appears to be written by a disgruntled former employee. One is about the lack of quality of the item but sounds like CS couldn't have been better (many timely follow ups, etc). The others are not exactly what I consider complaints to aid purchase making decision. The last one of the five is a detailed review of Laguna CS with a story of how they took care of a customer's problem. nine years out of warranty, free of charge.
When I bought my LT16HD, second hand, I've called them to get some help with few questions I had. I was helped like I was their best customer. They have sent me a few missing items, free of charge.
Internet is such a beautiful place to disseminate misinformation.

John Coloccia

02-15-2014, 8:43 AM

They've gotten better in recent years, no doubt because their bottom line was suffering thanks to the piles of complaints. Their bad CS was legendary, but they have improved significantly. I wouldn't pass them over because of CS anymore.

Mike Heidrick

02-15-2014, 10:10 AM

If I ever needed parts for either saw I am betting Grizzly would have them in stock and shipped next business day. :)

Charles Coolidge

02-15-2014, 10:47 AM

Didn't line up, did it? Mine didn't either. I spent some time with a chainsaw file to make it fit.

The table had a slight crown rear to front with the pin out, tap the pin in just far enough and the entire table goes dead on flat except for a couple areas that have a slight dip of .003 or less which is irrelevant. The issue is the outfeed side of the table is a few thousandths higher than the infeed side near the miter slot so you feel a slight bump as you move a miter gauge across it. Grizzly shipped me one of their replacement tables from stock, it was WAY worse I sent it back. Mine is 98% perfection so I opted to fix this issue myself.

John Coloccia

02-15-2014, 12:03 PM

Mine had the same problem. I didn't care so much about flatness, but I did care that stock was getting stuck at the break. That was ultra annoying until I fixed it.

Charles Coolidge

02-15-2014, 12:28 PM

Mine had the same problem. I didn't care so much about flatness, but I did care that stock was getting stuck at the break. That was ultra annoying until I fixed it.

Can you elaborate on the fix?

Patrick Curry

02-15-2014, 1:33 PM

Thanks for the insight Chris, and sharing your purchase experience. Your decision making process sounds just like mine. And knowing myself, if I took a look at your MM16 it would be far more costly than any trip to Keenland:)

The local Louisville Woodcraft doesn't have the 1412 in stock, or at least it wasn't there earlier in the month.

You mentioned the Lenox carbide blade not running well on 14" wheels. That's something I'll need to look into further. I've not gotten to blades yet....but I'll need to be sure that's not going to be the case with other high quality carbide blades.

A slightly larger wheel and 2" (+/-) more left of blade on that Grizzly are the two features that keep the 513x2 in the hunt. And the 513 owners all seem to be happy. Knowing I'm going to order an 8" Grizzly joiner, I wonder if they'd cut me a deal of any sort on a BS? Probably not...but might be worth asking.

John Coloccia

02-15-2014, 1:44 PM

Can you elaborate on the fix?

The pin is tapered, so you can file the hole to open it up a bit, and put it where it belongs. The pin just goes in a touch further, that's all. So in my case, I filed the bottom of the outfeed hole, and the top of the infeed hole. When you shove in the pin, the infeed side comes down a touch and the outfeed side goes up a touch. It doesn't take much.

Patrick Curry

02-15-2014, 1:56 PM

Thanks, Charles. I've that Grizzly's BS comparison chart up on my screen a number of times trying to ID the different features that will make a difference for my intended purposes. (separate models just for the sake of a color change is a bit too much IMO). Cast iron wheels and trunions, along with the 'better' bearings were my starting point but I'll go back and check out the fences.
And your point about the same factory churning out nearly the same saws except for color and pricing is definitely on my mind.