Why justify it?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Question for you students of Freud, the doctor, not the blade. Why do we seek justification or approval to buy tools? I bet over half the threads are based on that concept. Isn't just wanting something enough of a reason to try it? I'm as guilty as the next guy of it, but I think there are several here who are not. How about you? Why? Did we do this before the interweb?

My theory is that we want approval of our decisions because it makes us feel good, but as a theory, it has holes.

[Keith Westfall]

If I ask the one that matters, I would probably get a "No" but if it just shows up in the shop - well that the way it goes. Unless it is a huge expenditure - that's a bit different.

On purpose, I refuse to count shoes!

It all works out.

[Mike Henderson]

What I'm usually looking for is someone who has worked with the tool, and ideally, also worked with other brands, so that I can get a user's opinion of the tool. Also, I'd want to know if there are any problems with the tool. Maybe something that makes it difficult to use, supplies that are expensive, or reliability of the tool.

I'm certainly not looking for affirmation of a decision I've made. I'm looking for help in making a decision.

Mike

[Brian Kent]

I think our justification search is because we are always balancing needs with a finite budget (however large or small) and weighing a strong want against all of the other wants and needs. If I get some approval, I can shift the balance in favor of the wanted tool.

[Rick Potter]

Can't speak for any one else, but my wife never objects to my tool purchase (or any other purchases) because she knows I won't buy something I cannot afford. I, in return, never buy anything I can't afford. Probably half the approval threads on the creek are tongue in cheek.

On the other hand, it's fun seeing others getting new tools, and I really enjoy tool gloats. It's even more fun to be able to post one.

As far as your theory, I would suggest that everyone needs approval. Before the net, we likely got it from friends and family. With the creek, we find a group of people with some common interests. The fact that there are pro's as well as hobbyists here is just an added bonus.

Rick Potter

[Chuck Wintle]

Approval for anything comes form childhood and the upbringing received. As children approval is sought as part of a process of affirmation of ourselves as thinking human beings. When approval his withheld for our actions the guilt cycle is strong enough for us make amends for those actions. But its normal action to seek approval. Thats as far as I dare to go on the subject of Freudian pyschology!

[Brian W Smith]

Not a big Freud fan here....the Dr,not the blade.

But,am somewhat a student of the brain.Wifeypoo is a child development guru.As such we have a never ending supply of books,journels,and all manner of reading material pertaining to not only the brain but general behavior patterns.Being a lifelong voracious reader,which is 95% non-fiction....it was a natural to end up reading her stuff.Understand(or think I do) the O.P. question but don't really know how to respond.

Two books,well one is technically a "paper" comes to mind.One is "The futile pursuit of happiness" by a cpl PHD's from Harvard,MIT,or somesuch.The other is a decision,process book that came out a cpl years ago(too lazy to go look in library for title).With just enough research to get it on the book shelves,but that's not the point.It does have some very good ideas on what they use as a 4 step program for making decisions.I learned "right much" from both the above.....a quick googling will turn them up.

Neither of the above however,get into the very salient point in these discussions on how equip is dealt with on/in a business model.It's like the plumber not talking to the electrician meaning;There are financial interests to be met when it comes to decisions.......they aren't always a matter of the heart or what you "think" may be at issue.

An example would be buying a highly prized/valuable pce of XYZ equip. for the express reason of reselling after use......vs.....buying a cheaper version.If the pce was going to be used for X amt of time and then resold,the former may make more sense.But it's just as plausible that we're going to run the poor thing into the ground,swiss cheese drilling it's top/cabinet to suit our purposes,then scrap the whole thing for tax reasons?There are more reasons to look at any particular pce of equip than most realize.With money being only one aspect.

[John Coloccia]

My theory is that we want approval of our decisions because it makes us feel good, but as a theory, it has holes.

It's a rhetorical question. Look, you don't ask your wife if you should have another drink. You ask your drinking buddies. "What do you think? One more?". Yah, sure....one more! That's not a real question. OF COURSE they're going to say yes. You're just being polite and sociable...announcing your intentions so Bob stops nursing the beer and has a second to figure out what he wants.

Same thing here. No one really cares, but we want to be sociable, and CLEARLY we're not going to ask the wife, or any of our friends...because they might tell their wives, and it'll eventually get back to your wife. Who you gonna call? Your tool collecting buddies, that's who!

That's my theory.

[Jim Matthews]

I think the very existence of a question begs another;
is this something I need, and intend to use, or is it a Man Toy?

I'm trying to pare down the toys, and keep the tools.
Tools are things I actively use.

We've all been to Estate sales where the family is trying to unload a treasure trove of useless trinkets.
Those asking the OP's question likely see the arc of their lives ending up at a similar tag sale.

[Mike Olson]

Typically my request for approval comes from several things mostly revolving around $$$.
1. having a limited budget, i need to ensure that the money spent will be put towards something which will be useful
2. Want to check with others to ensure that the money spent on that tool is the best option. nothing sucks more than finally deciding to spend the money on something to find out I could have gotten a much better product for a similar cost.
3. With a VERY limited shop space, where am I going to put that tool? what will have to go into the backyard shed to make room? is there an option that is smaller?

My wife knows I over analyze all this so she doesn't give me any grief on those rare occasions when i do make a purchase.

[Larry Browning]

I have always had the attitude that I do not "need" a new tool, I "want" it. I have very few needs, food, shelter, and a little money to get those things. Everything else is a want.
Now, there is nothing wrong with acquiring stuff because I want it. I don't need to justify anything I do by saying I need it, it is enough to just say I want it.
Shopping for and buying a new tool is and should be an enjoyable experience. For part of that enjoyment is learning about it and getting feedback from others who have experience with it. To me this is not a justification process, but rather a learning process so that I can make an informed decision.

[Larry Browning]

I think the very existence of a question begs another;
is this something I need, and intend to use, or is it a Man Toy?

I'm trying to pare down the toys, and keep the tools.
Tools are things I actively use.

We've all been to Estate sales where the family is trying to unload a treasure trove of useless trinkets.
Those asking the OP's question likely see the arc of their lives ending up at a similar tag sale.

Do not kid yourself, they are ALL man toys, but that's ok. We should enjoy ourselves as we travel though life. For me, it's about what brings me happiness, and not what I "need".

[Mel Fulks]

Agree with Rick. It's bragging in a humble way.

[Montgomery Scott]

I want to justify a purchase because I don't have an unlimited source of income. Right now I'd like to buy a MiniMax CU410 Elite S but can't at the present time because I have higher priorities for my disposable income. As for approval I ask for none. Once I've decided on a tool the only permission needed is mine. I control the finances therefore I decide whether X fits into the budget or not.

[Larry Browning]

As for approval I ask for none. Once I've decided on a tool the only permission needed is mine. I control the finances therefore I decide whether X fits into the budget or not.
So, you are a single man I would presume, or possibly soon to be divorced?
Either that, or you are very certain this thread will not be read by the current wife.;)

Plus, in this context, approval and permission are not the same thing.

[Rod Sheridan]

Steve, I think we seek approval because most of us live in a relationship that's a partnership, and therefore we want to make sure we're not in left field with a decision that affects both of us.

My problem is that Diann likes good tools so she's no help curbing my wants...........LOL...............Rod.

[Andrew Joiner]

Question for you students of Freud, the doctor, not the blade. Why do we seek justification or approval to buy tools? I bet over half the threads are based on that concept. Isn't just wanting something enough of a reason to try it? I'm as guilty as the next guy of it, but I think there are several here who are not. How about you? Why? Did we do this before the interweb?

My theory is that we want approval of our decisions because it makes us feel good, but as a theory, it has holes.

Great topic Steve. I think part of the justification or approval to buy tools may be taught or almost inherited.

I was raised by a father who grew up in the depression on a farm. His father, my grandfather was a toolmaker from a poor family. As a kid I remember countless lectures on why "less is more". Waste was almost like a sin in our family.
Here's an example of one the everyday examples my dad used to guide me. Bob was our neighbor when I was 10. Bob had a 22' boat with a little cabin that I admired. We had a little 14' boat that my dad paid cash for. 2 or 3 times a week we'd drive by Bob's boat stored in his yard as we went fishing. My dad would say " to bad Bob's busy working and not fishing, guess he has to pay for that boat". I started appreciating our little boat more and more every time we went fishing.

Does anyone remember the old Sears and Wards tool departments? 50 years ago they both had a 30' long wall of hammers of every variety on display. I loved hammers as a kid ( I guess everything looked like a nail back then)and I was obsessed with that wall . My dad bought me the kid size, and the claw snapped off with the first nail I pulled. I whined and wanted a new one from the hammer wall. My dad said "your ready for a real hammer and we have one at home". I was raised to be frugal.

When I started woodworking as a teenager it was out frugality and a justification to buy tools. I needed furniture and a saw was cheaper than buying furniture. When my furniture was built, the saw was still mine and ready to build a few things for a profit.

When I started a woodworking business in 1970 I had to spend money to make money. That's when I struggled the most with my frugality and justification to buy tools. Every major purchase was weighed out carefully. You didn't really know if a tool or machine was worth it's price until you put it to work for a while. How did I ever survive without internet tool reviews or forum feedback?

I did have a "slip" in my frugality at the height of my earning years. I bought a red Porsche cabriolet. Completely unjustified but boy did the women approve!

Now days I'm very lucky. I have a tool budget that's not limited by money. I can easily afford any machine or woodworking luxury I want, and my wife agrees. I look at beautiful expensive machines online often,and think I should get that. My problem with tool justification today has actually become my solution. The $4,000 I have in tools and machines is all I need to make fine furniture!

Another note on justification in tool buying. I bought a new Dewalt radial arm saw around 1977. It paid for itself many times over in my commercial shop and it's still accurate in my hobby shop today. The same model Dewalt now sells used for more than I paid new. I feel justified and satisfied!

[Montgomery Scott]

So, you are a single man I would presume, or possibly soon to be divorced?
Either that, or you are very certain this thread will not be read by the current wife.;)

Plus, in this context, approval and permission are not the same thing.

You presume incorrectly on all three points.

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting discussion. It seems there are many answers for all of the different possibilities.

For some wanting a tools is enough justification. If my income was a bit higher maybe a few of those items of want would be acquired.

Mostly my tool accumulation is past the state of "need" for most tools. Now my choices are what could be useful in doing a better or faster job.

Often small dollar tools are bought to fill in gaps in various sets or because they will be easy to restore and resell for profit.

As to getting approval whether it is from oneself or one's significant other it feels good to be validated.

If plans are being made to purchase a tool costing more than $20 - $50 my wife is always told about it. My last big purchases of tools was in the $800 dollar range. She new about it and new I was raising most of the money by selling surplus tools.

Even after purchasing a new tool, or other item for that matter, we like to take our buddies out to the shop with a beer and show off the new shiny whatever.

Good buddies may not really know what you are all excited about, but they will go whooie, that is a nice one. Sure is better than the buzz kill friend who tells you, "Oh man you should of talked to me before you bought that. I know a guy trying to sell one he never used for half of what he paid for it."

Now that is a real let down.

jtk

[Jeff Erbele]

Question for you students of Freud, the doctor, not the blade. Why do we seek justification or approval to buy tools? I bet over half the threads are based on that concept. Isn't just wanting something enough of a reason to try it? I'm as guilty as the next guy of it, but I think there are several here who are not. How about you? Why? Did we do this before the interweb?

My theory is that we want approval of our decisions because it makes us feel good, but as a theory, it has holes.

You made an assumption which is not always true.
If I need it, I buy it.
If I want it, I have to think about it, spending the money.

Why justify it, for me:
Cause I don't want to waste money on junk (no matter the quality) I don't need or won't use.
Cause I seriously don't want to waste money on inferior products by my high expectations.

[Justin Ludwig]

I can't speak for anyone else and I'm no psychology major.

First, I don't want to make a mistake in a purchase (which I've already done 1-1/2 times). I'm very green behind the ears, especially compared to the average Creeker.

Second, I'm 150miles south of friends and family, living in my wife's "neck of the woods" and I know NO ONE but her immediate family and an 18yo kid that helps on the weekends. Being an extremely gregarious person, my watering hole is now confined to the internet (SMC and a growing dislike of Facebook). So, I make posts in part to gain knowledge and also to slowly try to fit in and get to know you all.

Luckily, 99% of my cabinet jobs come from my home of record and that let's me satisfy my social cravings every 2-4 weeks.

[Larry Browning]

You made an assumption which is not always true.
If I need it, I buy it.
If I want it, I have to think about it, spending the money.


How do we define need? When is something a need and when is it a want? For me I have very few actual needs. Food, Shelter, and a way to acquire those things. Those are actual needs. To me everything else is a want.
Just about every tool I own falls in the category of want. I really don't "need" a hammer or screw driver. These are wants to me. If I need to drive a nail, I could use a rock, but I want an easier, faster way to do that, so I buy a hammer. In my world that is a want. Everything in my shop, including the shop itself is a want to me, I don't "need" a single thing in it.
You may have another definition of need than me.