Tear-out from my smoothing plane

[Daniel Rode]

I've been slowly building a set of tables from QS white oak and I'm getting nasty tear out. I'm using a smoothing plane to do some fitting and to clean up the faces from the surface planer. If I read the grain and work in the right direction on a piece where the grain is consistent, I get a nice surface. However, if I encounter and grain running the wrong way, not only do I get tear out, but it seems like the plane digs in to make it even deeper and uglier. These are areas that did not have tear out or chipping from the planer. I had to resort to the sander because I can't afford to lose any more

Here's my setup. I have a good quality #4. The iron is properly flattened and sharpened. I believe it's sharp enough but I'm going to re-sharpen and re-test on some scrap pieces. I have the chip breaker set very close to the edge (Maybe 1/64). I've gone so far as to re-flatten the iron back and to re-work the front edge of the chip breaker to be sure they are meeting properly. I'm taking a shaving as fine as I can set the plane and the mouth is tight. When not tearing out, the shavings are thin and wispy. I can get even full length shavings with ragged edges from the cambered part of the iron. I'm seeing similar behavior on the edges as well, so it's not limited to face planing.

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. My expectation is that with a closely set chip-breaker, tight mouth, a sharp blade and a fine cut, I should get little or no tear out if the grain twists or reverses.

What should I try or what should I recheck?

[Jim Koepke]

Setting the chip breaker close usually means being in the range of 0.004 - 0.007". 1/64 is about 0.015".

Blade sharpness is very important to making this work. With a well sharpened blade, a little more blade beyond the chip breaker's edge would not be as critical.

How have you been testing your blade's sharpness?

After planing awhile is the area at the junction of the chip breaker and the blade clean? If a lot of shavings are building up at this point some more work is needed on the chip breaker to blade interface.

The only other thing that comes to mind is the condition of your wood. Some woods are more splintery than others. A wood that is overly dry or has been poorly stored may have problems.

jtk

[David Weaver]

yeah, closer. If you think its a 64th, try to set it twice as close by eye. You'll know when it's too close because you won't be able to get a reasonable thickness shaving without the plane bulling you backwards. Otherwise, wait to see the chip all of the sudden straighten out. Make the shaving a bit thicker so that it'll be easier to tell when the shaving is being worked by the cap iron. Generally, you should never see it worked by the cap iron if it's wispy.

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks Dave and Jim!

I think I'm closer that 1/64" but I'm not sure how to measure closer than that. It's essentially as close as I could see to set it at the time. IIRC, I used the glint off a light to see to set it and a magnifying glass to double check my work.

I'm going to go back and start with a freshly sharpened iron and go step by step. I won't be able to get back into the workshop until Saturday but I'll post my results when I do.


yeah, closer. If you think its a 64th, try to set it twice as close by eye. You'll know when it's too close because you won't be able to get a reasonable thickness shaving without the plane bulling you backwards. Otherwise, wait to see the chip all of the sudden straighten out. Make the shaving a bit thicker so that it'll be easier to tell when the shaving is being worked by the cap iron. Generally, you should never see it worked by the cap iron if it's wispy.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Generally, you should never see it worked by the cap iron if it's wispy.
So all those whisper thin shavings shown in glossy magazines were not produced with a correctly set chipbreaker?

[Mike Allen1010]

I'm a big beliver in the value of closely set cap iron, and all the other caveats of super Sharpe blade, tight mouth and well fit cap iron.

However I can,t personally get perfect no tear out surfaces in difficult, reversing grain woods without steeper pitch angles. My shop built 50, 55 degree single, thick iron planes work best for me w/ these kinds of woods.

I'm not a therotician and geometry escapes me, but a 60 degree single iron HT Gordon woodie is my plane of last resort and then scraper for severe TO. Just MHO.

Cheers, Mike

[Judson Green]

There's a trick you can do, at least it works for me. With the chip breaker on the iron tight but able to move still. Hold the iron in the light so you see a thin glint of light reflected back at you, careful to see the light only from the iron not the breaker. Then move the breaker (light taps with a screwdriver, after doing this awhile you won't need to tap with the screwdriver, just by hand) ever so slightly to the edge, thinner reflection. You'd find that you will still get a pretty wide reflection yet your breaker will be set very close.

Also polish the leading edge of your breaker if you haven't.

Good luck.

[paul cottingham]

Try scribing a line across a piece of hardwood with a marking knife. Use it to set the chip breaker on the blade by placing the blade in the scribed line and setting the chip breaker against the wood. (Make sense?) This works for me.
I would also check to make sure the sole of your plane is flat, and not twisted.

[Winton Applegate]

Sander ? Sander ?
What is this sander you speak of ?
You mean like to put sand on the streets in the winter time ?
Nah that's not going to help you on this oak, maybe on red wood or something.
:)
Anyway . . .


seems like the plane digs in
Bevel down huh ? Poor little unsupported blade just bends right down. How can it keep from "digging in ".
Try a bevel up with a steeper angle.


mouth is tight

Well there's your problem . . . you are holding your mouth too tight. Rookie mistake.
First . . . relax your lips
go gbbbggppppvvvvvsppp
Then make a sound like a motor boat. Walk around and do that for a while. Maybe run up and down the stairs a few times doing it.
Why ? Its fun !
And
it scares the hell out of SWMBO. (It's good for her occasionally.)

then shake your head and just let your lips kind of jiggle and flap around.
OK
You'er ready to plane now.
Little known fact . . . the results of your plaining doesn't depend on holding your tung just right.
unless you are using a bevel down then . . . well . . .
. . . it might help but better to get a bevel up and just . . .
R E L A X

[Derek Cohen]

Winton, I disagree.

It's more of a "brrrrrmmmmmm" sound. Like a motorcar.

I agree that a steeply pitch BU plane should work. However I do wonder if it is necessary. Why does one need a closed up chipbreaker on quarter sawn white oak?

Daniel, have you checked the flatness of your plane around the mouth? I suspect that is where your problem lies. Unless highly figured, the oak should be capable of successful planing without special planes or angles or chipbreaker adjustments. The "diving" you report is suspicious, as though you were using a deeper depth of cut than needed (owing to a raised mouth), and then the blade would be unsupported when hitting any resistance (in the mildly reversed grain).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Winton Applegate]

brrrrrmmmmmm
Got to be careful with that one it is perilously close to
OHMMMMM

brrrrrmmmmmm is an advanced methodology only to be embraced by those who are under the direct supervision of a guru.

It just so happens I am licensed and bonded for just such instruction. For a small fee I could . . .
well not a small fee . . . as such . . . some have argued that the fee was . . .

Just let me know if I can help.

[Kees Heiden]

I would open the mouth. Pull the frog back so the iron is fully supported from both the frog and the sole.

It sounds as if the capiron isn't close enough to the edge indeed. Oak isn't so terrible usually. Tapping the capiron forwards with a light hammer gives you more control.

[Jim Koepke]

So all those whisper thin shavings shown in glossy magazines were not produced with a correctly set chipbreaker?

There may be a lot of different variables in this equation.

A sub thousandths whispy shaving may not have to interact with the chip breaker other than an occasional splinter in the wood trying to lift before being severed.

If one has 0.0015" "whisper thin shavings" the chip breaker is likely doing a bit of the work.

Some of the diagnostics on this would be a lot easier with pictures.

It is possible the chip breaker is set too close to the edge. That can make shavings into an accordion fold. This can result in a bad surface.

Some woods are finicky.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Daniel, have you checked the flatness of your plane around the mouth?

A concave sole could explain taking a dive into the wood when it gets a good bite.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

Quarter sawn white oak is a difficult wood to plane. There are about half a dozen species that get lumped into "white oak" by the lumber trade, some more trouble than others. The reason it is difficult is that a beam has a relatively high resistance to bending or breaking under load, coupled with a relatively easy splitting with the grain. This is why oak is such good material for riving, and white oak rives most easily in the radial (quarter sawn) plane. And on a radial plane it rives most easily adjacent to the rays. It can be considerably more difficult to plane than interlocked jarrah.

Planing with a double iron plane is an art. It requires experience, judgement, skill. There is no such thing as a "correctly set chipbreaker" For more difficult woods, the sweet spot is smaller, requiring closer set cap iron, sharper iron, finer shavings. The great advantage to preparing stock by hand is that one has a good feel for the timber long before using the smoothing plane. So an experienced worker knows how the smoothing planes should be set up without having to experiment.

[David Weaver]

So all those whisper thin shavings shown in glossy magazines were not produced with a correctly set chipbreaker?

Well, they may be, but it's probably set so that it's working a thicker chip. When you back off to the very very thin shavings, they don't have the strength to lift the grain from the wood (and the chipbreaker is doing nothing to them at all, anyway - it's just not required to set a cap iron so close that it works a 1 thousandth or half thousandth shaving.

The common forum advice has always been to go sharper and thinner, and for the most part that works (and doesn't require a chipbreaker at all), but it's not practical for preparing lumber by hand.

There's usually no reason to go to a shaving that thin unless you're chasing surface perfection. But if you're not using a cap iron, there's very good reason to use a shaving that thin (because you're avoiding tearout).

There's a very large divide in what's needed in a board that's just been heavily planed by a jointer plane vs. one that came out of a well set power planer with no tearout, near perfect flatness and with nothing other than chatter marks.

[Prashun Patel]

Dumb questions alert:

Are you sure you are sharp? As I improve in my sharpening, other variables (like mouth opening and even depth or grain direction) are playing less of a role in the quality of the planing.

Are you sure you are flat? Being even the slightest bit out of flat causes me to set the depth too aggressively. The flatter you are, the more you can back off the depth of cut, which will alleviate tear out.

Last, can you skew your cut, or can you plane at 45 degrees?

[Pat Barry]

Sander ? Sander ?
What is this sander you speak of ?
You mean like to put sand on the streets in the winter time ?
Nah that's not going to help you on this oak, maybe on red wood or something.
:)
Anyway . . .

Per Wikipedia "Glass paper was manufactured in London by 1833 by John Oakey, whose company had developed new adhesive techniques and processes, enabling mass production. A process for making sandpaper was patented in the United States on June 14, 1834 by Issac Fischer, Jr., of Springfield Vermont."
I'd say that qualifies as sufficiently ancient history to qualify as a true Neander tool. Why beat yourself up to get the uncooperative plane to work when this tool provides you the finish you need?

[Jim Foster]

I think you should try scraping. I've been doing a lot of work with some well figured Q-Sawn and and Rift-Sawn White Oak and it's quite a challenge to find long pieces or whole panels that plane nicely. on the flip side, the pieces that do plane nicely with good grain configuration make that nice whispy sound when smoothing and come out great.

[Chris Griggs]

...a well set power planer with no tearout, near perfect flatness and with nothing other than chatter marks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrdBGGy7syE

[Jim Matthews]

My jack plane of choice is a higher angle, stout blade with no chip breaker.

I have some QS oak that I'm prepping for shop veneer.
I can cover a few square feet and suddenly have harsh tear out.

I strop the blade at that point.

Chip breaker setting aside, the keen-ness of the cutting edge is your essential, limiting factor.

[Tom M King]

With that wood, it's probably not sharp enough. Plane tuning has a lot to do with how one performs too, but only when super sharp doesn't do the whole job. Sharp solves all sorts of problems.

As woods get more difficult, and desired shavings get thinner, little things get more and more important. I've never thought that the word "chipbreaker" was a very appropriate name. It's really more of a shavings curler, or crimper. As shavings get smaller, and wood more difficult, every part needs to be tuned for it-back of blade polished, chipbreaker perfectly fitted and polished, and everything gets closer like edge of chipbreaker to edge of iron, and mouth smaller. Keep closing everything up until it works. In some cases, you even need to reshape the "chipbreaker" to let it get close to the work zone once everything gets closed up.

I find it easiest to keep several different smoothers tuned for a specific shaving thickness. Otherwise, you will have to fiddle with one to the point of aggravation when things get more difficult. I keep a 4-1/2 tuned for very fine shavings in anything, a 4 for a little thicker shaving, and a couple of 3s for progressively thicker shavings. It's nice to be able to just grab one and use it for a particular purpose.

[Michael Ray Smith]

There's a trick you can do, at least it works for me. With the chip breaker on the iron tight but able to move still. Hold the iron in the light so you see a thin glint of light reflected back at you, careful to see the light only from the iron not the breaker. Then move the breaker (light taps with a screwdriver, after doing this awhile you won't need to tap with the screwdriver, just by hand) ever so slightly to the edge, thinner reflection. You'd find that you will still get a pretty wide reflection yet your breaker will be set very close.

Also polish the leading edge of your breaker if you haven't.

Good luck.

Here's another trick that I just tried with my No. 2, and it seems to work okay. Remove 0.005" feeler gauge (or whatever thickness you want) from its holder and lay it on a flat piece of wood. With the chip breaker on the blade the same way Judson described, and backed off the end of the blade a bit, hold the blade vertically against the wood, edge down, and slide the feeler gauge against the back of the blade. Then advance the chipbreaker until it meets the feeler gauge. Inspect it the same way Judson describes to make sure you're happy with it and, in particular, to make sure the edge of the blade and the chip breaker are parallel. When I sharpen the blade on my No. 2, I put a bit more pressure on the corners so the edge is not quite straight -- the corners are backed off maybe .001." I tried this method of setting the chip breaker a few times, and maybe half the time the chip breaker would be closer to one corner than the other, but it was easy enough to coax it into alignment just with my fingers -- no need to tap with anything.

[Jim Koepke]

Tom,

Welcome to the Creek.


I keep a 4-1/2 tuned for very fine shavings in anything, a 4 for a little thicker shaving, and a couple of 3s for progressively thicker shavings. It's nice to be able to just grab one and use it for a particular purpose.

My arrangement of planes may be different, but the concept is the same of having different planes of the same size set for different tasks. Saves a lot of time from fiddling around each time a need changes.

jtk

[Metod Alif]

David,
Somewhere you mentioned your experience with different angles and shapes of the chipbreaker. Maybe you could share/repeat your insights/experience here . I believe that it is an important aspect that is missing from the whole tread.
Best wishes,
Metod

[David Weaver]

I can sum it up pretty precisely, though I didn't run a battery of a thousand tests, I've been using a cap iron and a common pitch plane exclusively now for a couple of years, and because of my piggish nature, I've tried about a dozen different smoothers and another dozen jointers, jacks and fores.

There are, to me, three basic shapes of cap iron that you'll either make or run across, four if you count one that doesn't work:
* straight face (like a microbevel) normal plane cutting angle (25 or 30 degrees) - This isn't effective and because a lot of cap irons are unhardened, it can take on damage from heavy chips
* straight face, somewhere around 45-50 degrees - my second favorite. Normal unhardened steel will stay undamaged in use. When set close, it operates over a fairly wide range of cut depths without allowing significant tearout and it becomes gradually harder too push as the chip thickness gets greater. It works and it's fairly forgiving and "unpicky". It also does not shove the chip back into the surface of softwoods too hard, in the event that you're taking a cut from something like walnut, or some softer quartered wood that shows evidence on its surface (surely nobody else would actually recognize crushed fibers on softwoods, though - but you will be able to tell the surface looks a little funny if the cap iron is too close)
* straight face, around 80 degrees - someone who watches the K&K video without actually putting the cap iron into practice will probably prefer this setting "because the video said so". Call this the bloggers setting - see a video, try something once, write an article,declare it the best and plug your blog. In practice, the setting goes from doing little to smashing a thick chip with great resistance without much range. For a hand tooler who will like to vary the depth of cut some without changing the cap iron setting more often than you sharpen a plane, it just isn't nearly as nice as 45-50 degrees. The chip can't get up and over the cap iron easy enough unless it is thin and has no strength. It WILL prevent tearout, but the operating range is narrower and the effect on the surface of wood being planed will be greater -it's not the user's choice.
* The stanley profile - curved stock setting, or a vintage cap iron with a curvature similar - this is my favorite. It operates the same as the 45-50 degree, but it seems to me to just work better. I get a slightly better finish surface, the planing resistance is the same or less. I'm not sure what the reasoning is, but I'm OK with that - it works.

I've played with japanese planes and coffin smoothers over the last couple of years, and just got another coffin smoother (a proper no-wear english smoother with crisp nearly unused metal parts to set up), and for whatever reason, the stanley 4 (one that's got a good cap iron set up stock clean and crisp) planes easier than all of the others when the cap iron is engaged and with less trouble. It weighs just enough that you don't have to bump start it in a cut, but not enough to be too heavy, it leaves a great surface in everything except the very softest white pine 2x4s (that nobody should be using anyway) and it can take an incredibly heavy smoother shaving with the cap iron set properly if you want it to.

Second behind the bailey 4 design with stock parts would be continental smoothers of the old ulmia design. They can also leave a very nice surface, but take a heavy cut when you want to without incurring tearout.

I slightly round all of my cap iron edges now (by preparing them freehand) and with care to not allow them to get too steep.

Initially when we threw together the wood central article, I liked the stanley stock profile the best, and I had tried several planes of several types. I've tried at least twice as many again as that now, and i'm more firmly convinced that it is ideal.

[Winton Applegate]

:)

"Glass paper was manufactured in London by 1833

Well yes and I suppose some where in the world they are still using pikes and donkey carts too.I find no need for those at present either.

you need
Now don't include me in your mad, twisted, gritty little habits.

get the uncooperative plane to work
My point is why have a plane if it is "uncooperative" when one can have quite a friendly and cooperative one in a few days by post ?

why have a plane if it is "uncooperative" ?
Ahh here's one : employ it as a unique and conversation starting door stop.

[sandpaper] provides you the finish you need?
oop there you go again using the you word
I don't need a finish that has rocks in it and leaves a wavy, undulating, roundy, surface and allows me the privilege of buying a lot of paper products that makes some body wealthy (hey it is just dirt and paper ) that I am just going to throw in the land fill.


Beat your [my] self up
When was that ? I missed it.
Rather my point really . . . sharpening is such an easy thing and produces such a nice clean result why would I want to make a lot of dust and imbed blade damaging grit in my surfaces ?


Sand paper is for improving metal work such as car bodies. I can't think of a reason I would want to use it on fine woodwork.
Take a wooden floor down to tolerable appearance with a gigantic belt sander on a stick maybe. But . . . use sandpaper on a cabinet . . .
. . . wait for it . . .
. . . .
Nahhhhh
Dude
nah
.

:)
all in good fun.

[Metod Alif]

David,
Thanks for your detailed and very beneficial answer. Even though I meant it for Daniel Rode, I will benefit from them. I use stock chipbreakers on my LN 4 and 4 1/2 that have about 30* angles. With my current sample of woods I got 'perfect' results - but some other woods could call for 45* - 50* chip breakers. So it is good to know.
I had curved chipbreakers on my Record planes (that I gave away when I got LNs). I think that they stuck to the irons with higher pressure (due to the curving) than LNs.
The arrangement for the K-K video is very specific: narrow iron and no mouth. There is no data for the forces needed for different settings. Any reasonable guesses could only be made on the basis of prior experimentation/experience.
I have no difficulty getting the breaker within .1 mm (about .004") but the planes behave like a shampooed cat. It is important to determine the sweet spot for the situation at hand.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Fred Taylor]

I'm with Mike. In my experience, steeper pitch trumps most other factors (except sharpness) in really difficult grain. And while it's fun to fiddle with trying to achieve a perfectly hand planed surface, if your goal is to actually build something, plane as best you can and then break out a properly sharpened cabinet or card scraper, hit the problem areas a few times, sand lightly, and move on. I like a straight from the plane surface as much as the next guy, but sometimes you gotta go the way shortest way possible to get a quality result.

[Winton Applegate]

Daniel,

So, what's the latest ?
What have you determined ?
(have you hidden a bevel up under the bench that you can pull out when none of your Bedrock brothers are watching ? Hey just because I strut down the boulevard letting my freak flag fly doesn't mean you can't stay in the closet with your bevel up.)
I found the "sweet spot" long time ago
Here's it http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=67691&cat=1,41182,52515
At least that way you can experience "the impossible" and after you get your project done strive to achieve it on some scrap with the anachronism.
You know . . . for the fun of it.

[Winton Applegate]

I guess you could call this "A COVER" of a song I just heard.
I changed it around a little.
If I get rich I will send you royalties.
And a one a and a two a and a . . .

steeper pitch trumps most other factors INCLUDING SHARPNESS in really difficult grain.

Fiddle is fun except with bevel downs with too many parts (chip breaker).

ALWAYS a perfectly hand planed surface

if your goal is to actually build something
but sometimes you gotta . . .

Bevel Up.

Go the way shortest way possible to get a quality result. (Okaaa that was kind of a Satchmo thing right ? "It's not whatchasay . . . itshowcha say it").

? . . . a bevel down plane, and a cabinet scraper, and (or) a card scraper, and sand paper and hold your tung just right . . . ?

or

ONE plane with a ever so slightly steeper secondary beveled blade.

SLAP it in the plane (no just right diddle fiddle) and set what ever depth you want (your strength and your bench are the limits)

aaaaaaaannnnnnnnd
DONE.

Which is the more simple ?

, plane as best you can and then break out a properly sharpened . . .

Bevel up blade.
hit the problem areas (well the whole surface EVENLY actually unless you want a hollow in the surface).
? and move on ?

Nah dude YOU'RE DONE !

Time for the photo session and to call the magazines. ! ! ! !
You have just done what only "THE FEW", "THE STRONG", "THE BRAVE",
the expert sharpener . . .
?
Oh wait . . .
you have done what any blighter with a sharpening jig and a moderately priced (actually quite inexpensively priced ) bevel up hand plane can do.

I like a straight from the plane surface.

guy, go the way shortest way possible to get a quality result.
BU.

How's tha sound ?
Catchy ?

[Daniel Rode]

So, what's the latest ? What have you determined ?

Inconclusive thus far.

I resharpened the iron and set the chip breaker even closer but I ran into some problems at that point. I remembered why is was set to 1/64 last time. I ran out of room. The adjuster wheel became tight and was apparently at the end of the stud and could not be tightened any more. In order to get a any cut, I had to move the (bedrock style) frog forward.

I can take a fine cut but the mouth opening is so small, that's all I can take. It seems to me that the slot in the chip breaker that is engaged by the adjusting lever is too far back. It needs to be 1/16" closer.

It's frustrating and I'm not sure what needs to be fixed. Do I need to replace the plane, replace the iron and breaker or do I just need to make some adjustment and work on technique.

[Kees Heiden]

Yes that is frustrating. What plane is it? If it is a LN or a woodriver then it is a wellknown problem and they should be able to supply you with a chipbreaker that does fit. For free if I remember correctly. If it is an old Stanley then I don't know. Never heard about Stanleys this far off, but that doesn't mean too much.

[Chris Griggs]

Never heard about Stanleys this far off, but that doesn't mean too much.

I've had a vintage plane or two where cap iron has been ground back or abused just enough from previous users that it couldn't be set close enough. It really doesn't take that much unrestrained grinding (and by grinding I don't mean on a power grinder) to render them this way.

Daniel if this is the case, you should be very easily able to find an old bailey cb that will work (assuming you are using a Stanley). Sargent's are the one plane I know of where getting a workable replacement cap iron is difficult as they space thing quite differently.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Sargent's are the one plane I know of where getting a workable replacement cap iron is difficult as they space thing quite differently.

I feel like at one point, LN offered custom chipbreakers as an option if you supplied the edge-to-adjustment-hole distance but I must have been dreaming it, because I don't see it anywhere anymore.

[Daniel Rode]

This is a wood river #4. I bought it maybe 3 months ago.

Yes that is frustrating. What plane is it? If it is a LN or a woodriver then it is a wellknown problem and they should be able to supply you with a chipbreaker that does fit. For free if I remember correctly. If it is an old Stanley then I don't know. Never heard about Stanleys this far off, but that doesn't mean too much.

[Chris Griggs]

I feel like at one point, LN offered custom chipbreakers as an option if you supplied the edge-to-adjustment-hole distance but I must have been dreaming it, because I don't see it anywhere anymore.

Yes, they did...I thought they still do, but I haven't looked in a while. Ron Hock will custom make them too. I never bothered.

[Chris Griggs]

This is a wood river #4. I bought it maybe 3 months ago.

Contact Woodcraft, tell them the problem. I believe they will send you a new one.

[bridger berdel]

I've had a vintage plane or two where cap iron has been ground back or abused just enough from previous users that it couldn't be set close enough. It really doesn't take that much unrestrained grinding (and by grinding I don't mean on a power grinder) to render them this way.



chipbreakers like that still work fine with a blade ground to an aggressive radius, for scrub or jack duty.

[Jim Koepke]

It seems to me that the slot in the chip breaker that is engaged by the adjusting lever is too far back. It needs to be 1/16" closer.

I had a problem like that at one time.

My solution was to epoxy a piece of metal at the bottom of the slot in the chip breaker until I was able to acquire a different chip breaker.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

I sent an email to the store I bought it from explaining the issue. I'm curious how they choose to handle it. I've always had very good service in the past. This will tell me a lot about them and Woodcraft in general.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

I also have Woodriver #4 and am able to set chipbreaker as close as possible to edge and can take up to 0.002" or so shavings in reversing grain hard maple with glass smooth surface (where my 40 deg bu jack would rip out huge chunks, and 50 deg bu jointer would leave pretty rough surface). The mouth is quite tight on this plane - there is only so far I can advance the blade without getting clearance issues. I had to back off the frog as far as possible, but not too far, as at some point blade won't advance because, it seems, bevel of the iron will hit the bed and not clear the mouth. The plane was bought last fall.

If you would like me to measure something on my plane so you can compare to yours I'll be happy to do so.

[Winton Applegate]

It's frustrating and I'm not sure what needs to be fixed. Do I need to replace the plane, replace the iron and breaker or do I just need to make some adjustment and work on technique.

It's hopeless.
I'd quit at this point and take up another hobby.
Chasing women or some such.

Ha, ha,
just kidding. That 's what I tell the young guys when they talk about girls or their girl friend problems.
I say.
Nah don't mess with girls. (What ever you do don't kiss 'em ! They are carriers you know. )

Listen to some body who learned the hard way.
Forget girls.
Take up a nice hobby. Woodworking maybe.

Sounds like your blade is worn out (sharpened so many times it is too short). Sorry if I missed where you said it is a new blade if you said that.

[Winton Applegate]

(where my 40 deg bu jack would rip out huge chunks, and 50 deg bu jointer would leave pretty rough surface)

Funny how two people living on the same planet, effected by the same basic physical parameter set, can . . .
Live on two freeeeek'in DIFFERENT PLANETS ! ! !

Isn't it odd. That.
Yes.
I think that it is.
Perhaps.
Just a tad.
Odd.
That.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

Winton, on this planet, I'm afraid what you are saying is incomprehensible.

[Winton Applegate]

. . . I don't know any more . . . I just don't know . ..
:eek:

:)

In order to get a any cut, I had to move the (bedrock style) frog forward.

That DOES NOT SOUND RIGHT !
In theory, with a properly machined plane, moving the frog forward would simply close up the throat but not effect the depth of cut.
So
The bed where the frog sits is not parallel to the under side of the plane, the sole.
I am not saying you should do this but in theory if you were to file THE FROG thinner on the surface that sits on the bed then you would get your 1/16 inch.
The bed still would need to be made perfectly parallel to the sole (another reason to have the surface plate and precision metal working tools some poo poo in these forums).

BUT
and this is a BIG BUT !

Once you sharpen your blade a bunch you will be right back where you are now with a blade that won't reach the work.

Kind of an argument for turning your bow from the Chinese star and toward the Canadian North.
LN is good but LV is more precise and more consistent in their specs.

Hey aaaaaah about that bevel up thing . . .
I just found out I was wrong.
Some body said theirs all tear out and stuff.
I must have gotten into some halusanistic espresso fumes or something.
I was all wrong about that.
I must have hallucinated my perfect surface on the bubinga table and maple projects and purple heart work bench.
OH MAN !
Just wait until Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer hears that our table isn't flawless, I just imagined that is was, and it is, in reality, all torn out. That's IT ! No more espresso ! I mean it ! This time !.
. . . oh man . . .
can I come live with you ?
Q is going to toss me out or take me back to the pound, I just know it.

[Winton Applegate]

Winton, on this planet, I'm afraid what you are saying is incomprehensible.
Keep at it, you'll get it.
(the bevel ups I mean).
Don't tell me . . . Chinese made ?

[Marko Milisavljevic]

I think you are saying (It's hard to really say) that you think that I'm saying that BU planes can't produce smooth surface, and that you don't appreciate that I'm saying that. I'm only offering an example that my particular BU setup, at 50 deg, with this particular piece of wood, wasn't giving desired results (in other words, this wood is difficult, I'm not just saying it is), but the Woodriver 45 deg BD setup with close-up chipbreaker was working as some people say it should, hence, I'm satisfied this particular plane model does work with "close-up chipbreaker" technique, and if it isn't working for him we should compare planes so he would know if it is him or the tool.

It was in no way intended to rile up any BU users.

[Jim Koepke]

Funny how two people living on the same planet, effected by the same basic physical parameter set, can . . .
Live on two freeeeek'in DIFFERENT PLANETS ! ! !

Isn't it odd. That.
Yes.
I think that it is.
Perhaps.
Just a tad.
Odd.
That.

That is why we say,

282951

It sometimes happens to me like that on two pieces of wood ripped from the same board.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

Winton, just for information: the woodriver plane is a bedrock design. They have the frog on an inclined bed. 20 degrees or so. It is a feature, not a defect.

There are some drawings of the design on the LN site.

And one more thing, shortening the blade through many sharpenings won't change anything. It is the chipbreaker that mandates the position of the edge.

[Winton Applegate]

Kess,
Yes
Of course you are right !
That's what I get and deserve a good flogging.
:(

Winton, just for information: the woodriver plane is a bedrock design. They have the frog on an inclined bed. 20 degrees or so. It is a feature, not a defect.

There are some drawings of the design on the LN site.

As they say :
HOW SILLY OF ME
HSOM
:o

I apologize.
I was wrong.


I never found the diagram on LN but I pulled out my LN #4 . . .
had to fight my way through a heavy layer of cobwebs . . .
kidding . . . just kidding
:D

Yep just as you said.
I guess I was picturing in my mind the frog and not remembering the bed.


And one more thing, shortening the blade through many sharpenings won't change anything. It is the chipbreaker that mandates the position of the edge.

Oh Bob
I was wrong, so wrong about the blade as well.
How embariskin !
:o:mad::(:o:mad::o
Just shows how long I have been away from them bevel downs.

I pretty much began to ignore them after "the purple heart debacle" of 2001
:rolleyes:
Really the one I use the most now is the # 1
hard to believe but true.

What do you suppose is going on with Daniel's plane then ?

Could his chip breaker be THAT far out of spec that he can not advance the blade to make a cut ?
:confused:

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks again everyone!

I contacted the store I purchased the plane from and the owner immediately sent off a message the Woodcraft product group who then contacted me. They were aware of the issue and simply asked me to verify my address so they could ship me a longer chip breaker. I imagine I'll receive it next week some time. I couldn't ask for better or faster service than that. Once the new one arrives, I'll measure everything and then re-sharpen, get the plane ready to go and see if I get an improvement. I'll post my results.

I'm sure I'll get some BU planes at some point, even if it's just so I can rave about them to Winton :) For now though, I'm determined to get the absolute most out of the planes I have.

[Winton Applegate]

Marko,


It was in no way intended to rile up any BU users.

Oh . . .
OK.

Ha, ha.
I'm not all that riled.
Mostly banging the table because "Some body has to do it". It is cool that the bevel downs work so well once set. I may one day try to make mine do the same.
I made mine work with a back bevel way back when, then gave up and went BU.
The blade support of the BU is something I don't want to give up.
Interesting the comment about backing off the frog until the throat supports the blade. Sort of like one of the better Japanese planes where the wooden body has been custom fitted to support the blade all the way to the sole. People do that with the bedrock BD ? Or was that a joke. I couldn't decide. Kind of iffy and what about a cambered blade ?

The feel of the bevel up, TO ME, in the tough stuff is just so much more solid, predictable and so easily and repeatably set up for the same cut time after time I just . . .
words fail me.
A loose analogy I suppose would be it is kind of, with me, the thing were now that there are modern fast yachts some people still go the same distances with the old wooden boats. It kind of gets to be more about the boat and less about the trip and the destination. And sometimes the mast breaks off. I was following that young, young girl sailing solo a few years ago and that happened to her in a major storm. Modern yacht would have just motored on I would think.

None the less I joined in with all those donating money for costs to recover the boat after she was rescued. The donations were returned and they abandoned the boat to the sea !
God that was a sad moment for me. I can't imagine how she felt.

. . . hows that for a side track ?
anyway . . .
I just don't see the attraction of the BD in the tough stuff.

[Winton Applegate]

I couldn't ask for better or faster service than that

Now you see, that's why they keep me in the back.
I would have pulled a proper chip breaker out of a plane we had more than one of and handed it to you.
Had the one being shipped sent to the store not to you.

But that is just me
bad Winton . . . BAD !


I'll get some BU planes at some point,
Now don't say that if you don't mean it.
I'm fragile.
Don't kid about a serious thing like that.
Would you really ?
No . . really . . . no . . . really ?
It's hard for me to trust.
My heart has been broke' before.

Seriously though . . . I look forward to your info and experiences with the good chip breaker.

[Winton Applegate]

I would have pulled a proper chip breaker out of a plane we had more than one of and handed it to you.
Had the one being shipped sent to the store not to you.

Now where do I get such preposterous ideas as that ?
That is a good question.
And I will answer it :
http://www.amazon.com/Customers-Life-One-Time-Lifetime-Customer/dp/0385504454

[Daniel Rode]

The new chip breaker arrived in the mail today.


Original 4 7/8" overall, 3 19/32" edge to slot
Replacement 4 29/32" overall, 3 11/16" edge to slot

That's just over 3/8" more adjustment room. I needed no more than 1/8", so I'm set.

It ain't all rainbows and unicorns, though. After just a few test strokes in some reversing grain oak, I noticed the cut was off on the right side. Sure enough, a bit of shaving had worked it's way between the iron and chip breaker. I had the iron skewed that way or I might not have noticed. I expected to work the leading edge, so I'm not surprised or concerned about this. It's a 2 minute job.

With the iron straight and sharp but not pristine, I set the chip breaker as close as I could by eye. I then took some cuts on pine, oak that was reversing 180 degrees and a scrap of flame maple. I worked edges and faces in both directions. Most had some tearout from previous work.

With all the pine I tried, I got a perfectly smooth surface in either direction. I really couldn't tell the difference. The oak had grain that led up to a knot and then reversed. Prior tear out was significant just beyond the knot. The plane skipped a little over the rock hard knot but immediately began to leave a smooth surface, slowing working down to remove the tearout. A sharper iron might have helped more. The flame maple was next. Every direction is the wrong way because of the undulating grain. I did both edges and the face going both ways. Amazing. There was a tiny bit of tear out but I think it may have been a pre-existing condition. The really bad tear out on the edges cleaned up nicely and left a smooth surface. I worked all 3 sides from both directions. I got smooth results both ways.

That's a pretty informal test. I have a new finishing stone coming this week. I'll clean up the chip breaker edge and get the iron as sharp as possible and do some more testing and take some pictures.

[Chris Griggs]

Great news Danial! Thanks for sharing. If you haven't already, be sure to polish a secondary bevel on the outside leading edge of the chipbreaker...(somewhere in the 45 to 50 degree range will suffice). This helps with the tearout further, but more importantly it strengthens the edge of the unhardened chipbreaker, which are prone to chipping/crumbling when used heavily in hardwood at the low angle they come at.

[Daniel Rode]

Essentially like a micro bevel on a chisel or plane? Since the WR chip breaker comes beveled, I assume the idea is to flatten than angle a bit to make it stronger.

Great news Danial! Thanks for sharing. If you haven't already, be sure to polish a secondary bevel on the outside leading edge of the chipbreaker...(somewhere in the 45 to 50 degree range will suffice). This helps with the tearout further, but more importantly it strengthens the edge of the unhardened chipbreaker, which are prone to chipping/crumbling when used heavily in hardwood at the low angle they come at.

[David Weaver]

Ditto - 50 degrees of microbevel (make it half a millimeter or a millimeter) and that should be the last you see of tearout.

[Chris Griggs]

Essentially like a micro bevel on a chisel or plane? Since the WR chip breaker comes beveled, I assume the idea is to flatten than angle a bit to make it stronger.

Yep. Exactly. Just like on a chisel or plane.

[Kees Heiden]

Nice Daniel. Good to see your plane now working up to specs.