Beating myself up about this (mild rant...)

[Erik Loza]

A course I'm doing right now requires a valid CPR cert. from the Red Cross. So, I enrolled and took of these classes the other evening. As it was getting started, the instructor introduced himself by stating that he is a former Doctor of Medicine/OBGYN and that he now owns and operates a long-haul trucking company. Seems plausible, though odd, I guess? However, the more and more this gentleman kept talking, the less and less I found myself believing that he might actually have been an MD. His diction was poor (speaking with double-negatives...) and he seemed confused at times about medical terminology. Enough to the point that the lady sitting next to me and I glanced at each other with raised eyebrows more than once. His presentation was terribly disorganized and we seemed like Keystone Kops during the hands-on portions. Rather than asking if we were clear on this or that point, he tended to ramble on with stories about himself.

At one point, you're taught how to use a germ barrier when giving resuscitation breaths and this got him rambling on about the importance of sexual abstinance and I'm almost certain I heard him say that HIV was the same thing as AIDS (which is medically incorrect, as any Doctor of Medicine would know). To put a point on it, I am highly dubious that this gentleman had any professional background in medicine and I was not the only person in class who felt that way.

Anyway, the reason I'm ranting is because at the end of the class, you're handed this survey to complete. It asks you to rate the class, the instruction, so forth. You are then to hand it directly to the instructor. By now, everyone was feeling like, "Are we free to go?". They were probably all like me: Just wanted the cert. done and go home. So, I just checked "satisfactory" on everything and handed it in. But now, I am pissed at myself because I really wanted to say, "I don't think you're a doctor and your class was a mess.". But I thought at the time, if I wrote that, that maybe he would start asking me to explain, but I was just "done" by that point and wanted to get out of there. Like when you have a terrible meal and the waiter asks how it was, but you say, "Fine", anyhow? Because you just don't want to deal with it? But I'm beating myself up about this because this is the Red Cross and I feel like the expectation should be high. Is it OK that guy who seemed medically illiterate calls himself an MD? Was a commentary on sexual behavior supposed to be part of the curriculum? Or maybe it just doesn't matter? Anyway, venting here because my wife is tired of hearing about it, LOL.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mike Henderson]

What you could still do is send a note to whoever organized the class. More than likely, there's some organization that puts on the classes and hires the instructor. Send them a note that expresses your concerns about the instructor.

If you had handed a bad evaluation directly to the instructor it probably would have gone in the trash can anyway.

Mike

[Mike Lassiter]

your concerns seem real and important enough to me that I think I would contact the Red Cross and convey them to someone there in a position to look into it. I wouldn't tell the lady that answered the phone, she may just think you are trying to cause trouble.
Did you get a VALID CPR certificate? If it is truly valid the Red Cross should have the instructors credentials on file as matter of record. After all what good is giving the class to people that MIGHT have to save someone's life and then not know how to really do it? The Red Cross risk liability here if it has allowed an unqualified person to certify people in CPR.
Your conscience seems to be telling you, you need to do something. Good! You may just save someone's life.

[Erik Loza]

Mike & Mike, thanks. Yeah, I got the cert. just fine and feel like I could perform CPR and use an AED if needed. The class was legit, taught at the local Red Cross HQ.

From what I can tell, instructors like these are volunteers rather than actual employees. I'm sure they are certified but it does not appear they are paid. Therein lies my quandry: "Yes", I believe the instructor was fibbing about his background and "Yes", I believe there was substantial room for improvement in his presentational skills but on the other hand, I got what I came for and do, in fact, feel like I could use if if needed.

To be honest, the instructor was indeed from left field but was not rude or a jerk. He appeared to genuinely want to see that we all learned. He actually seemed more to me like a lonely guy (rambled about his divorce, too...) who maybe, this was his only form of social interaction. He did mention how he had been doing this for something like 10 years and how much of a part of his life it was. So, that's my dilemna. I don't really want to potentially ruin this guy's "one good thing" but it all still bugs me. Don't know what to do....

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Chuck Wintle]

I had a teacher for Chemistry like this once upon a time. he came from industry to teach and although a nice enough person could not teach to save his life. needless to say he did not last as his lectures were boring and rambling.

[Myk Rian]

When I took the RC CPR class, the instructor didn't know too much about pacemakers/defibrillators. Such as the shock pads could turn them off. Women often choose to have them placed on their side, instead of their upper chest. Other points. I wasn't underwhelmed with the class, but I did learn something from it.

[Phil Thien]

If you have his name you may be able to quietly inquire with the state division of licensing and find out if he ever practiced.

[David Weaver]

Does the instructor have to be an MD to give the course, or do they just need to be certified to teach?

If it doesn't matter whether or not they're an MD, I wouldn't bother complaining about it. It could just cause the guy trouble, and if he otherwise did a decent job teaching the actual content of the course, the rest of the stuff is offputting personal habits.

Now, if you complained and the guy actually was a physician 20 years ago or something, then you'd really feel bad. It seems unlikely that he was because most physicians present themselves well, and if they don't, it's usually more rudeness. But if it doesn't matter in terms of certifying, then it's really not that big of a deal.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Having given a fair few lectures at colleges sometimes I found myself stumbling over how best to describe things I understood to people that may not understand them (often leading to sideways jaunts of little relevance), his reference to HIV/AIDs being the same thing *may* just be lazyness in not wanting to spend a lot of time explaining the difference between them on a course that it really doesn't matter in. Maybe not the best way to do it for purpose of technical accuracy but I have in the past done a similar thing (although these days I'm a lot more careful) when trying to get attendees to understand wave-particle duality to avoid 3 hours of back and forth that leads to nothing.

He may very well be an MD who's last CPR experience was 20 years ago as a junior in an emergency department. On the flip side he may just be another "Sign language translator" and on such a course that would give me some pretty grave concerns.

I'd call the local authorities and ask if he was ever an MD to be honest, the next course he does could have somebodies life depending on the accuracy of his efforts.

cheers

Dave

[Jerome Stanek]

Just because he is certified to teach doesn't make him a teacher. I was certified when I was in the service to teach in Ohio but I wasn't a teacher.

[Rick Moyer]

I think the real concerns should be did he present the material well, and was/were the information/procedures correct. If the info/procedures were not correct then he needs to be reported. If the presentation was done poorly then a more subtle communication may be in order. Whether he actually was a doctor or not is immaterial as long as the course material was accurate. Bottom line to me is, if you have concerns (as you obviously do) then you should definitely do something. You'll have to decide what direction to go with this.

[Frederick Skelly]

I dont think it matters if he is/was an MD. You said you got enough to do CPR if needed.

An eval is to help them get better - him and/or Red Cross. IMO, its fair game to send a letter to the local unit with an honest eval - "I learned the material and feel I can apply it. However, you should know that the Instructor's personal manner is distracting and made it harder to learn than I felt it had to be. He should consider taking some presentation training." That sounds like what you mean and I wouldnt take it any further.

Hope it helps Eric.
Fred

[glenn bradley]

What you could still do is send a note to whoever organized the class.

That's it right there. It is obviously disturbing you and not acting allows this to continue to disturb you. the method of the survey made you uncomfortable in being honest and that is OK. What is not OK is suffering over a situation that is not your fault. Contact the Red Cross or whoever scheduled the class. Tell them you thoughts as well as explaining that the method of survey is flawed and that they should instruct their instructors so as to get more valid results.

[Len Mullin]

I'm sorry Erik but, I personally think that it's time for you to let it go, your ranting and raving on enough about it that your wife is fed up. You took the course and you got your certificate, mission accomplished! You may not have liked the instructor but, by going on and on about it isn't good for your blood pressure, your stressing over nothing. The poor fellow may not know how to carry on with a proper conversation in a crowd of people he doesn't know, he could be nervous or something could be bothering him. Is it going to make you feel all that much better to report him?
Len

[Erik Loza]

Len, you are absolutely right!

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Keith Westfall]

I've been in a few courses that you end up with the feeling that "I would never recommend...) but there are a couple of things you could do.

If many feel the same way, then go around quickly and gather a few from different class members and hand them in together. Makes it harder (if one is inclined) to tie a review to an individual.

Another is start making a pile on a desk or table and others will follow suit, and then he will have to pick them up together.

In the end, it may not matter if he/she has the ability to review and throw... :D

[Ole Anderson]

Not every MD gets their degree from Johns Hopkins. There are plenty of lower rate schools, many offshore, that have fairly lax admittance standards. he could have graduated, but near the bottom of a class that didn't have high standards to start with. A young friend of mine is just finishing his MD at Michigan and he is at the top of his class. He showed me a book that is published giving minimum admittance standards for various schools with an MD program, some of them offshore, which relate to some of the standardized med school test scores. The higher your score, the more likely you are to be admitted to a prestigious school. Those with lower scores, well... There might be a reason he no longer is in the profession.

[Mike Henderson]

Not every MD gets their degree from Johns Hopkins. There are plenty of lower rate schools, many offshore, that have fairly lax admittance standards. he could have graduated, but near the bottom of a class that didn't have high standards to start with. A young friend of mine is just finishing his MD at Michigan and he is at the top of his class. He showed me a book that is published giving minimum admittance standards for various schools with an MD program, some of them offshore, which relate to some of the standardized med school test scores. The higher your score, the more likely you are to be admitted to a prestigious school. Those with lower scores, well... There might be a reason he no longer is in the profession.

Or, he may not have been able to get a residency. I read somewhere that there are not enough residency positions for all the graduates of medical schools. You must go through residency to be able to be licensed to practice medicine. No residency, no license, no ability to practice medicine.

Mike

[Don Morris]

The people who organize the course should be alerted to this guy and have him checked out. If he's legit, great. But if not, you're not getting your money's worth. And/or he could be doing more damage than good. I have a Masters in Adult Education and have heard of people misrepresenting themselves through faulty credentials. Their not too hard to check out. When several people suspect his credentials, that's sort of "where there's smoke there's probably a fire". When I pay good money for a course and the instructor says he/she is such and such, I expect them to be just that. Nothing more, but nothing less.

[Brian W Smith]

You always hear in whatever profession......"He/she graduated in the upper 90% of their class".Or some such drivel.

Not being the least bit funny here,what about the other 90% and specifically the lowest 10%?The guy may have been a really bad M.D.......ho knows?

Honesty has such nice quality's.I'd call someone pretty far up the foodchain and very politely voice the concern.......then move on.

[Frederick Skelly]

You always hear in whatever profession......"He/she graduated in the upper 90% of their class".

Remember the old joke that 50% of the doctors in the world graduated in the lower half of their class.
Sorry guys. I just couldnt resist :)

[Lee Schierer]

50% of doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class. Maybe he was one of those.

In any event, you don't need to be a doctor to give a CPR class, though it sounds like your instructor needs a refresher course as I don't think they do the breathing part any more with CPR.

[Jim Matthews]

The people who organize the course should be alerted to this guy and have him checked out. If he's legit, great. But if not...

http://www.mbc.ca.gov/
I feel the same way about fraudulent professional credentials as I do
about Stolen Valor. Public flogging is too good for those cons.

Check him out. If he's lying, throw the full weight of the law at him.
I don't think you're off base about this, in the least Erik.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

I think he should talk to the organizers.

Imagine if a group of doctors showed up for a lecture on the latest brain surgery techniques and Larry the Cable Guy was teaching it.

Even if they sat through it and he delivered the goods, the ranting would be epic.

[Myk Rian]

by going on and on about it isn't good for your blood pressure, your stressing over nothing.
Which could put you on the receiving end of the class.
Let life go on.

[Rick Potter]

He also could have been a great doctor who could not stay out of the pharmaceuticals. It happens.

[Prashun Patel]

You should definitely bring up your concerns with the organization he works for.

I don't see a conflict; in fact, if you do not raise a flag, then you are putting others at risk.

[Stan Calow]

You don't have to be an MD or even a health care professional to be a certified CPR/AED instructor for either Red Cross or American Heart Association. I have been in dozens of these over the years (including in the military) and have never had an MD or DO teach the course. So sounds like he is guilty of being a poor instructor, (and pretty crafty if he makes you hand the surveys directly to him).

[Rod Sheridan]

Erik, like Mike said, send a note to the Red Cross about this instructor.

I often teach and the instructor evaluation forms and course evaluation go to me manager, without me seeing them.

I agree, it sounds fishy...........Rod.

[Jerome Stanek]

Also what do you call someone that graduates tops in his medical class Summa cum Laude what do you call someone who graduates at the bottom of that class Droctor

[Bill McNiel]

Erik,
Is it possible that what you are upset about is the reality that you were not honest in completing the evaluation form and as a result feel a blow to your personal intergrity which is obviously important to you? Simplified, this means you sacrificed your integrity to achieve a goal and obviously that does not sit well with your conscience. You are to be applauded for this reaction. You are obviously an inherently honest, quality individual who is remorsefull for not living up to your own standards. Do what you feel is right and correct the situation (call, confront, email or write a letter).

BTW - You are a quality individual and this world needs more people like you.

[Jerome Stanek]

when I was in high school one of my teachers a had us write a summary of how the class was and how he was as a teacher this was in the middle of the year and most everybody was going to have him for another class I was honest and said that he wasn't a very good teacher as he couldn't keep the class interested. He got mad at me and on the final he said that I cheated and copied the answers from someone else because my grade was to high. I took it up with the princple and asked to see the grades of everbody that sat near me and they all just barely passed. He was even madder and said just wait till I had him in the next class all I said was I'm not taking that one. The principle sided with me.

[Jim Koepke]

All else aside:

If the class survey was tossed after his reading it, at least he would have read it.

Often those evaluating the survey know how many were in the class and would want to know about any missing surveys.

During college one of my instructors did not prepare any class materials. He just read to us from the book we had to purchase for the class. This was one of my most boring classes and it was difficult for me to hold any interest.

Another class in the same field and of a similar nature had an instructor who engaged the students. He seldom said exactly what was in the text. He embellished what was in the text by completing the context and adding dimension to the historical accounts.

I can remember the name of one of those instructors. I can also recall a lot of the subject matter. The other one is just a vague memory with what I recall the most about him is he was a native American who played football for Oklahoma State.

jtk

[Frank Drew]

http://www.mbc.ca.gov/
I feel the same way about fraudulent professional credentials as I do
about Stolen Valor. Public flogging is too good for those cons.

Check him out. If he's lying, throw the full weight of the law at him.
I don't think you're off base about this, in the least Erik.

Based on what Erik's told us, there is no full weight of the law to throw at him even if he did make up his M.D. credentials in front of his students; as noted by others, CPR instructors don't need any training beyond that of Certified CPR Instructor, although many are in health care in one form or another (EMTs, Paramedics, nurses, etc.) This fellow might, or might not, be guilty of lying to a CPR class, but that's not the same as the criminal offense of practicing medicine without a license.

It does sound as if the Red Cross could usefully give him some remediation in classroom technique, but quite honestly the Red Cross and the AHA are happy whenever they can find people willing to get certified as instructors and teach these classes.

[Jeff Erbele]

The part about reporting him is not for self-satisfaction. The important part is to improve the quality of instruction, so perhaps countless others do not have to experience the same thing. It also doesn't mean the end of his job as an instructor / volunteer. Ideally the feed back should be constructive feedback; an attempt at improving things.

I can empathize with handing the form to the person one is evaluating. We had to do that three times in the past several months with various people working for our new home builder. That is not the correct way to do a customer satisfaction survey. It makes it very difficult to be honest when there is some degree of dissatisfaction, and what's the point of the survey if it is not honest. I plan to discuss that with the right person in their corporate office when we have a meeting there for other business.

[Erik Loza]

Gents, thanks for your thoughts. I went onto the Red Cross site and completed aon online survey for that class, saying what I wish I would have said that night...

"...I took this class on 2/11 and did complete the paper survey form, leaving basically "neutral" or "satisfactory" answers but in hindsight, regret doing that now because, I feel like there was substantial room for improvement in the presentation we received. The instructor was polite and affable but terribly disorganized. For example, at the start of the class, he stated that we required another several hours of online work in order for us to receive our certifications (which was incorrect). Several of us pointed out that the website explicitly stated this was a 3-hour class only, at which point the instructor debated us about it. This caused some anxiety and confusion among the students. He did recant this toward the end of the class. The chronology of the video presentation seemed out of synch with his verbal presentation. Several times, for example, the instructor acted surprised by the segment of the video which appeared on the screen, leaving him flustered and leaving us a bit confused as to what steps we should be following. Also, the instructor on many occasions began rambling off-topic with stories about his personal life. I ordinarily do not mind a little of that except that he on several occasions stated that he was "formerly an OB/GYN", a claim several of us found dubious based on his general presentation and lack of knowledge about medical science. Toward the end of the class, the instructor mentioned several times wanting to "Get us out of there early", or words to that effect. I could not help asking myself if, between the disorganized presentation, the rambling stories about the instructor's personal life, and perhaps a desire to go home early, if I learned everything I had paid for? I felt like the curriculum was good, just not this particular presentation...

I believe I got what I needed out of the class and to be fair, feel like I could perform CPR and use AED if I needed to but honestly, would not recommend it to anyone I knew if it were being taught by this particular instructor. I just did not find his instruction that night to be representative of what I would expect from an organization like the Red Cross..."

Thanks again for letting me get this off my chest.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Michael Mahan]

to me it seems that some surveys are meant to blunt lawsuits when it's a customer doing a survey for vendor right the time of service .
Now this doesn't in any way apply to Erik's situation , I'm addressing a vendor handing off a survey to a customer in person at the moment contact after work is done .
the reasoning is you can force a positive response right at 1st the customer would have a hard time coming back later to say he was dissatisfied