Bench dogs holes, how close to the front edge?

[Judson Green]

I'm currently in the middle of making a new top for my workbench and was wondering, how close to the front edge are your bench dog holes?

Been googling around and there doesn't appear to be any rule of thumb. Read somewhere its good to have them close (say 1½ - 2") so one can use a fenced plane, but in many photos the holes appear to be ~ 4", some even more. Currently mine are ~ 3¼" and I haven't encountered many problems, but I'm also not using many fenced places... yet... hope too in the future. Others have stated it's good to have the dogs approximately centered on a 8" wide board that you might be aggressively planing.

Thoughts?

[Joel Thomas Runyan]

Little less than 2". I process all my stock by hand, haven't had any problems holding things down while traversing, as long as the dogs are in good shape. I say get them as close to the front as you can. It's definitely helpful when using a plow.

[Steve Voigt]

When I was building my bench, I remember reading Chris Schwarz's advice to put the dog holes as close to the edge as possible. But I had a face vise that I wanted to repurpose as an end vise, and it wasn't practical (with this vise) to put the dog holes any closer than 4" from the edge, so that's what I did. I have always regretted it; in fact, it is really the only thing I don't like about my bench. If I build another (hopefully not for another 15 years or so!) I will definitely put the holes closer.
One thing to keep in mind is that if you're using an end/tail vise, that will partially dictate how close you can put the holes.

[Christopher Charles]

Also less than 2" and no issues so far. Also ditto that an end vise is a major consideration. Good luck.

C

[glenn bradley]

In line with the vise screw ;-)

[Don Dorn]

About an inch. The other row is also close in that they are less than 9" from the front row. The only thing I would change when I eventually build a new one is the second row would only be every other hole as I've found these only to act as support. I would not change the front row because I commonly use a plow on faces as well as a #050 with a beading blade. I'm able to secure fairly narrow work with that front row and still have a little off the edge for those planes.

[Adam Cruea]

Mine are about 3 inches (maybe less) from the edge, and no complaints thus far from me.

[Chris Griggs]

As close as possible. My current bench has round dog holes centered 2" from the edge...in the bench I am currently building has square holes that begin 1" from the edge.

[Judson Green]

Ok guys thanks for your advice.

[Brian Holcombe]

1-1/4" or so. So far, so good. I really don't try and kill anything with my vises, but I've put some torque on them In a handful of occasions and it's been no issue.

[Keith Mathewson]

Without knowing what the rest of your bench look like it is hard to give a good answer. Are you going to have a sliding deadman? If so having dogs very close to the edge will interfere with it. Do you intend to clamp to the bench? Do you intend to do a lot of chopping? You get the idea, I prefer to have the dogs at least 2" from the edge. I've had a second row of dogs on previous benches and can't every remember using them.

[Winton Applegate]

There is roughly 1 and 7/8 inch of wood between my dogs and the outer face of my bench. Why such a screwy number ? Because in the real world it is 5 centimeters.

How did I arrive at this ? It is about what Frank Klausz used in his bench in the original one that is in FWW magazine.

As far as centering on an eight inch plank . . .
in actual practice I found no need to center at all. See photos. Bubinga planks, many of them, all planed from the rough with a LN scrub and a LN bevel up jack going full out and I think I had one plank pop out of the dogs but it was my fault. I think the end of the plank was cut at an angle from the supplier and I didn't pay attention.
No problem at all clamping the planks way off center and planing across and diagonal to the grain.
I have found no need for metal dogs or to have a grip surface on the dog. These dogs are purple heart.


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/hereandthere_zps40f4961b.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/hereandthere_zps40f4961b.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0081_zps1b0d98f8.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0081_zps1b0d98f8.jpg.html)

Now there is another consideration; planing the edge of a board, jointing etc. I would not want the dogs much further away from the edge than mine are for that type of planing. Note the slot for the planing stop which makes a liar out of me but I put that in because it was in the plans.
Any way for small stuff I just stand the board on edge against a single dog and plane the edge. I don't clamp it with the tail vise or anything else. Huge stuff I might clamp in the face vise and or use a bench slave but for every thing mostly I just put it on top of the bench; even the big 'ol plank in the previous photos. My bench is quite low so that works out great.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_1496_zps3d52c739.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_1496_zps3d52c739.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_1497_zpsb2ae9d44.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_1497_zpsb2ae9d44.jpg.html)

[Gregory McDonald]

I am building my bench and couldn't decide how far from the edge to drill my bench dog holes until I read this thread. I am going to drill 3/4" holes centered 2 inches from the edge. That will make them 1 7/8" from the edge of the bench.

[Gary Focht]

I am building my bench and couldn't decide how far from the edge to drill my bench dog holes until I read this thread. I am going to drill 3/4" holes centered 2 inches from the edge. That will make them 1 7/8" from the edge of the bench.

If my math is correct, your dog holes will be 1 5/8” from the edge.

2” - 3/8” = 1 5/8”

[Kevin Jenness]

I like them close to the edge. If using square dogs, it is easiest to cut the slots in the aprons prior to gluing to the rest of the top and end vise core. Mine have a 1 or 2 degree inward slant.

[Derek Cohen]

A limiting factor is the end vise you use. In my case I have a Benchcrafted wagon vise. This is the underside of my bench. Note that it cannot be built any closer to the edge ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench3_html_m626d5bc4.jpg


The dog holes are rectangular, angled towards the end vise at 3 degrees. The wagon vise dog angles towards the dog holes, also with a 3 degree lean. This is important - tapping down on the dogs tightens them. You cannot have perpendicular holes with this feature.

All this places the dog holes about 60mm from the edge of the bench ...


https://i.postimg.cc/NffdYGd3/D4a.jpg


I have not needed the dogs to be closer to the edge. What purpose would that serve?

Planing wide boards needs wide registration. A stop at the end of the bench helps here ...


https://i.postimg.cc/2SSCkVhQ/End-stop1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/4N5JRz74/End-stop2.jpg


When I plane edges for rebates or grooves, I use a sticking board ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/AdjustableStickingBoard2_html_m53fffdcf.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jack Frederick]

I’ve been knocking this around myself for my new bench and your sticking board idea seems to solve this issue for me. Thanks for that Derek. I have the BC Classic, Record 52 1/2 & the BC planing stop. My dog holes will be centered on the Record at about 5 1/2-6” inland. The sticking board idea can provide a home for the plane stop and seems a pretty slick solution to Mr Schwartz’ advise. The plane stops are short money so is there a good reason to add one between my Record dogs and the front edge? I so look forward to getting this done as currently I spend most of my time engineering a method of holding the material.

[Derek Cohen]

Details here, Jack: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/AdjustableStickingBoard2.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/AdjustableStickingBoard2_html_m6d3441d5.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Scott Clausen]

On my Moravian bench it was dictated by where my wagon vice was located. I think it was about 3" from the edge. Hold fasts have a long reach so it hasn't been limiting at all. I will say as you get very close to the edge the risk of fracturing the wood grain may increase. I always was going to add more dog holes where needed but that hasn't happened yet. oops, just realized this op is asking in 2014, my bad.

[Tom Bussey]

One of my benches have have a tail vise. Where the dog holes are placed in the tail vise controls the location from the edge of the bench. The screw in the tail vise also controls where the dog holes go. My other bench has a wagon vise and it needs support on both sides of the actual vise so it is also controlled by the wagon vise screw. To me dog holes in a bench are a waist of time without some sort of end vise and dog holes that are not in line to me would leave something to be desired. A planning stop can go anywhere as well as holes for a hold fast. This bench has a right handed and a left handed side and has both a tail and a wagon vise and square dog holes . The left hand side has a leg vise not shone in the picture. My other two benches have wagon vises with round holes.

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[William Fretwell]

Gregory the most relevant factor should be the most likely width you plane on the edge. You don’t want very much hanging over the edge of the bench. You will want the dogs in the middle of the board. If a board is 6 inches you want the dog near the middle at three inches. My bench has oblong dogs angled in at 3 degrees. Don’t go too near the edge or you compromise the board holding.

[Christopher Glanton]

What size dog hole do you all use? And what dog hole clamp/hold down do you all use? I'm glueing up a simple 2" hard maple top bench now and can't decide these two aspects of the bench design.

[Tom M King]

Milled the dog slots/mortises in the edge of the bench top using a router template, and glued on a 5/4 board for the near side top edge, so between 1", and 1'1/4" after the face of that board was planed down. Never even think about their location after that.

[Jim Koepke]

What size dog hole do you all use? And what dog hole clamp/hold down do you all use? I'm glueing up a simple 2" hard maple top bench now and can't decide these two aspects of the bench design.

Some like 'em square and some like 'em round.

Square depends on the bench maker but usually a standard thickness so they can be cut from scrap stock.

For round dog holes, my choice, 3/4" is pretty much the standard.

My holdfasts were made by Harry Strasil Jr. Sadly he is no longer with us.

Many have mentioned these being fine after holding the shaft in sand paper and giving them a few spins > https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-HOLDFAST.01?searchterm=holdfas

There are also extra dog holes in my bench top. Parallel to the front row are a few placed so different widths of stock can be prevented from moving sideways when planing against a dog.

Some are also spaced to hold a planing claw:

468774

This and other bench top helpers can be very handy at times. This was better than a quick release vise when running a lot of similar sized pieces.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

Here’s an example of not close enough. I’m planning on installing a wagon vise along the other long edge.

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[chris carter]

What size dog hole do you all use? And what dog hole clamp/hold down do you all use? I'm glueing up a simple 2" hard maple top bench now and can't decide these two aspects of the bench design.
3/4" holes for both dogs and holdfasts. I use the Gramarcy holdfasts in a four inch thick doug fir top. They work great, although I did rough them up with 40 grit sandpaper and also beat up the shafts with a hammer. The hold incredibly well.

[chris carter]

My dog row is 4-1/4” on center from the edge of the bench so it lines up with my screw. But I don’t even use them for moulding. For mouldings I use the back side of my bench where my holdfast holes are positioned so they can easily reach the edge of my bench. If the board is wide enough I just hold it down with the holdfasts. If it’s a narrow board, then I use a sticking board. My sticking board is just a flat piece of pine left over from some project long forgotten with a few screws driven into one end – took a few minutes to make. I then grab any random board that is straight and use that as a fence. I put my piece of moulding at one end so it just barely sticks over the edge, push the fence board up against it and knock down the holdfast. Then I go to the back end of my moulding and position it just over the edge and do the same thing. This distance is infinitely variable – no alignment pins, no hold down knobs, no nothing and it takes maybe 10 seconds or less. I back out any screws showing to act as the stop. It works well. If I need a thin fence because I’m using a combo plane then I grab a thin scrap board. If I need to make a tall piece of moulding then I grab something thicker. It doesn't need to be fancy; a scrap of 2x4 will work as the fence. Usually though, I tend to not use a combo plane so almost any thickness of board will work as a fence.

I’ve never seen a sticking board done this way, although I’m positive I’m about the 10,000th person to think of it. I was watching a ton of sticking board videos and trying to figure out which way I wanted to build mine for maximum flexibility. Then it occurred to me I didn’t really need to build anything at all!

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[William Fretwell]

We get the occasional earth tremor, seeing those planes up there makes me nervous!

[Christopher Glanton]

Thank You Jim and Chris, very much appreciated!

[James Pallas]

I put a set of square holes 1 1/4” from the front and a set of round holes 6” on center and in position where the square dogs and round dogs line up across the faces. I also have a set of round dog holes on the end of the tail vise to allow for a little more length. This set up allows the use of Wonder Dogs to clamp odd shapes. The photo shows the bench not complete. It’s now has a leg vise and has been in use for year. So far I’m very pleased with dog hole locations. I haven’t felt the need to add more.
Jim

[William Fretwell]

My dogs are 1” wide and 1.5” deep. To simplify the height holding mechanism I used double sided adhesive foam tape to hold the filler piece. The foam is very dense. Never seen anyone do this. It works beautifully, even after years. By having this on the side of the dog it’s holding power is not compromised, it is also very simple to do.

468888

The dog are 2.5” on centre from the bench edge. Boards 5” wide are held in the middle. Three dogs well spaced along the back of the bench next to the tool well for very wide boards.

468889

Having the dogs lean into the holding 2 or 3 degrees keeps the pressure holding the board down not pushing it up.

468890

While round dogs are very simple, the reduced contact area for holding is not ideal. Stout oblong dogs are stronger. When you look at all the work that goes into a bench having a great row of dogs is worth barking about!

[steven c newman]

Mine are about 2" in from the edge...and line up with one in the vise's jaws...
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Blue doggies...$10 for a set of 4 from Kreg, sold at Menard's. They fit into a 3/4" round hole. KISS...

[Curt Putnam]

I have the HNT Gordon tail/wagon vise and they are rather adamant that the line through the center of the fog hokes and screw should be over 3" inland - for better control of wider stock. They assume the use of a sticking board. Derek Cohen's board is a great design and HNT Gordon's argument seems obvious. With that said, it is obvious that close the front edge works and that set further inland works. One's end vise determines how close to the front the holes can be.

[steven c newman]

Might also depend on how many dog holes the vise has....(2 on mine, BTW)