Operating environment?

[Don Corbeil]

I wanted to ask a basic yet essential question about what's considered an acceptable (not optimal) environment to put a laser. Once I decide to go forward I certainly want to protect this investment, as best I can. I'm not going for the desktop models, as I want ample work area and some power. So, I've been narrowing it down between a speedy 300 (80W) and an VLS 6.60 (60W).


I do not have an ideal environment for the laser - that is, a climate controlled room inside the house to place this machine in. The only practical place I have to put this sized machine is in our attached garage (no vehicles). The good points are that it has low (and steady) humidity levels and has little dust and dirt infiltration. The bad points is that it has fluctuations in temperature. I live at 7000' in southwest colorado, and there can be significant fluctuations in temperature outside. These are somewhat mitigated by being attached to the house, and I can set up auxilary heat in there, but I'm not sure I want to be running aux heat 24/7 when I'm not using the machine. I could preheat the environment before turning on the machine, if that is a useful idea. I don't plan on putting this system into heavy use, at least right now. I know that aside from dust and dirt, temperatures are critical to life of laser tube.

I know many of you have a dedicated shop that is climate controlled (envious!), which would be perfect for this. In the absence of this however, have some of you made it work in an attached garage (or similar) operating environment? Or is this just a bad idea? If it just doesn't make sense to put an expensive piece of equipment like this in there, I may rethink what I set my sights on, or wait until I add inside space (long time). If it's not a crazy idea, what steps could one take to minimize potential problems?

[Mark Sipes]

Real simple.......manufacturer recommendations..

http://www.troteclaser.com/en-US-US/About-Trotec/News/Pages/2013-01-perfect-laser-conditions.aspx

[Bert Kemp]

If your laser is going to sit in a room were the temp can drop below freezing add enough anti freeze to your coolant to keep it from freezing.

[Dan Hintz]

If your laser is going to sit in a room were the temp can drop below freezing add enough anti freeze to your coolant to keep it from freezing.

The two machines listed are RF-based cartridges... air-cooled, so no water to worry about.



Don,

As with all sensitive electronics, keeping them in a climate-controlled area is best. Yes, they'll survive in a much wider range of temperatures, but you will shorten the life of any component that has to endure wild temperature swings day in and day out... dropping to below freezing during the night only to be well above 100F during processing is not a good thing long-term, as I'm sure you can imagine. You can get away with it, as some here will attest to, but when I pour that much money into a machine, I want to make sure it's going to last as long as possible. It's your choice.

[Mike Null]

I agree with Dan. I'm in my 17th year of engraving and have experienced no failures with either my ULS (9 yrs) or my Trotec (7 years and still going strong) in a climate controlled environment.

[Mike Lassiter]

Same as Mike. Our laser approaching 6 years old in climate controlled environment with no problems. Material kept there to. ULS has required temp range for machine.
After investing tens of thousands on our laser it would just be dumb to NOT try to protect it and make it last.

[Michael Hunter]

My Epilog has run for 10 years in an uncontrolled environment* and is still on its original tube.

I'm lucky in that in the southern UK we don't usually get extremes of temperature.
If I have warning of a very cold snap coming I will put a 360W strip heater under the machine overnight but otherwise the machine has to take what the weather brings.

* Poorly insulated wooden workshop.

[Jim Good]

Sounds like Don would love to have a machine in a controlled environment but it isn't possible. If the option existed, I think we all know the proper answer. Sounds like the real question is, can it be done? Can he successfully run his laser from his garage where his machine will see extreme temperature changes. How much loss of life could he expect?

[Frank barry]

hi I work from my garage and what I have done is made the area where my machines are much warmer and use the rest for storage all it takes is a hew bits of 2x4 and some insulation a few sheets of 8x4 and your sorted cheers Frank

[Dave Sheldrake]

I'm with the Mikes and Dan, to be honest the minimal cost of stabilising the temperature may well pay dividends on machine reliability. That may just mean small heaters running 24/7 (say a 1Kw fan heater etc)

As to the how much shorter will the lifetime be, impossible to answer without doing a LOT of math and having exact data to work on but in general laser resonators don't like temperature swings, the more stable you can keep it the better the output from the resonator will be.

cheers

Dave

[Joe Hillmann]

Since you don't park cars in the garage how hard and expensive would it be to insulate and block off part of it that is near the house and then tap into the house furnace to keep it warm in there? My guess is that an 8'x8' room could be built for under $500. When you figure the cost of the machine that may be money well spent. Plus that means you can comfortably use the laser in the winter.

Edit: Also how cold does it get in your area? You can get away with fewer precautions if freezing is the coldest you see each year, as compared to if -40 is how cold it gets.

[Glen Monaghan]

My guess is that an 8'x8' room could be built for under $500.

Depends on how you get it built... I need a 33' long, 8' high uninsulated non-load-bearing interior wall built and 3 electrical circuits run with outlets and ceiling lights to create my new shop area and decided that it would be good to add a 5'x5' half bath as well. Figuring it would take me months to do it myself, I got quotes that came in around $18,000! Thinking I'll still have someone put up the wall so I don't have to handle all that drywall, but looks like I'm going to have to plug away at the rest as I can make time. The plumbing work rates were dumbfounding... I guess when you really need your toilet working, you'll pay up...

[Mike Lassiter]

Everybody has their own limits of risk and wiliness to take chances. To spend thousands on a piece of equipment and in essence put it in a barn is hard for me to understand. If it wasn't electronics like the laser, say a metal lath I can see it. In fact I have a Smithy 3 in one machine sitting in an unheated building I had to build to put it in before it arrived. This is entirely difference from something that has a need to be maintained in a fairly narrow temperature and humidity range. Some manage to do it without problems it seems. I had to have a building built for our laser. It was understood from the start that I needed to do it to even have a place for the laser. So, about $11K for the building and wiring and insulating and blower I put in - and all my labor expect we purchased the building delivered on our land. The laser cost $33K in 2008 with a 4 month build time. Since have added a second 75 watt cartridge for another $12K. Now I realize not everyone has a $45K laser, but regardless you should want to do all you can to protect your investment.

You wouldn't buy a $10K car and not insure it, or maintain it. My point of view is if reason and caution suggest the laser needs "this" in order to preform at it's best and longest longevity why would you be willing to risk doing less? Not trying to step on anyone's toes or offend anyone. It just doesn't make sense to me to want something so expensive and expect it to work properly for as long as possible without trying to protect it. Whatever you need to do should be apart of getting the laser. If you need heat and likely cooling depending on where you live that is as much apart of what you need to expect to do and do right as getting an exhaust blower and providing proper power for the equipment. Why wouldn't you? :confused:

[Don Corbeil]

Thanks for your responses. I needed to back up (from my search for an appropriate system) and take a hard look at what environment I have to offer.


Looking at the Trotec recommended operating conditions that Mike posted, I can see that in the summer, I should be OK. We have a very pleasant climate here during that time, without extremes. The summer outdoor high temps around here rarely go into the 90's, and the lows are usually in the 50's and 60's. Typically through the summer there is a swing in temperature of 30 degrees or so in 24 hrs, but those swings are not mirrored in the garage environment. It is much more regulated, and swings would probably be more in the range of 10-15 degrees, and pretty close to the recommended range. It's also easy to cool down with a little ventilation.


The winter will be more problemmatic, and this is where I worry about affecting the life of the system. Not only the laser tube, but the fact that cold temps will make the oil and grease more viscous are one of those subtle yet cumulative effects on the life of a machine. Even though there aren't extreme cold temps in the garage, It would certainly require supplemental heat while operating. I may need to drop a thermometer in there to get a more accurate idea of temp ranges, but I'd say temps usually are in the 40's for a low, and 50's for a high, with humidity levels pretty steady between 10-20%. I know it has never got to freezing in there, even when well below zero outside.


One of my main questions for the winter is that if the laser is not in operation, is it OK to 'store' the machine in temps that are between 40 and 50 degrees? I would never fire it up without heating the area to recommended levels, but is there any known detriment to the machine to be held in this temperature range when not in use for periods of time? My wife and I occasionally travel for a week or two in the winter, and leaving an auxiliary heater on is not ideal.


I must say it's interesting to see Trotec's recommended range for humidity at 40-60%, and yet condensation is named as a major factor to be vigilant of. 40% humidity around here is downright tropical! I suppose this recommended humidity range is not an issue when the temp is climate controlled and rarely drops to the dew point. I don't think I've ever seen condensation in the garage, even in the winter.

[Mike Lassiter]

Operating
Temperature
50ºF (10ºC) to 95ºF (35º C) capable
73ºF (22ºC) to 77ºF (25º C) for best performance
Storage Temperature
50ºF (10ºC) to 95ºF (35º C)
Operating Humidity
Non-condensing

Cut and paste from my laser users manual (ULS - ILS model)

[Mike Null]

Average humidity in St. Louis is 50 to 85 depending on time of day and time of year but I heat and air condition my space, more for my own comfort than the machines, so that humidity isn't really relevant.

In the garage though it would be challenging.

[David Somers]

Don,

For what it is worth, I also agree with the folks that suggest keeping the gear at a stable temp rather than letting it swing widely each day. If you think about it, if you let the engraver cool down to ambient temp, perhaps 30 degrees overnight, even if you turn on a heater in the garage an hour before you want to start working the interior components of the laser will still be quite cool when you fire up the beam. There is a fair amount of mass to bring up to temp. You would probably be OK given decent shop karma, but why risk that if you can avoid it?


I understand the desire not to heat the shop all the time. I have lived in areas where electricty was dearly bought. Even in Seattle, with the some of the lowest electric rates in the US I am loathe to heat when I don't need to. Two simple and inexpensive possibilities come to mind.


One is to make an insulated cover for the laser and put a low wattage heater in it overnight. Something like a Goldenrod heater, or other devices used for boats called Air Dryers. They are small low wattage heaters without moving parts. Typically 50 to 100 watts. And they are safer to use than a light bulb. A golden rod heater could put mounted within the case of almost any laser I have seen. The cover material might be something like you use to cover a good outdoor grill. Those typically have a fiber insulation of some sort to reduce condensation between the metal grill and the the waterproof outer layer of the cover. You can get that at any fabric store. If you don't have access to a sewing machine a sewing store could find you someone to make it for you for a pretty minimal amount. Cover the machine during your off hours, fire up that little low wattage heater for the night, and the temperature swing is greatly reduced without incurring much in initial costs or recurring costs for electricity. it also gives you a nice way to protect the machine from dust if you use the shop for wood working or other projects. And the cover is fabric and can be folded and stored easily during warmer seasons.


I use this approach for a drying area for finishing wood objects in the winter. A 50 watt goldenrod heater is MORE than enough to keep my drying area up around 70 or more when the garage temp is 35 to 40. In fact, I generally put it on a timer that turns it on and off every hour or it gets wastefully warm in there.


A little more involved project would be to use something like galvanized piping for the corner posts of a plastic "room" to house your laser. Use the galvanized threaded flanges you can get for the piping to attach them to ceiling. One for each corner of your "room." Stretch clear plastic around that. Strong inexpensive magnets would be great for attaching it to the piping and be very easy to put up and take down as needed. Places like Woodcraft and painting supply shops even carry magnets that are contoured to match the diameter of piping just for this purpose. Then put a small, low wattage heater in the space, run it during your off hours and you have reduced the temp swings again without spending much initially or for electricity over time.


If you will work with wood in your laser, you might check out some posts from earlier this winter by Dave Sheldrake regarding climate control. He found BIG differences in the performance of his lasers cutting sheet stock depending on how whether it had gotten moist simply from ambient humidity in his storage area. Of course, the UK has slightly different humidity levels than Colorado, but still....something to keep in mind.

Another thought is summer time. Here in Seattle we have about 3 days a year where we break 90, maybe. (we are temperature wimps....we admit it!! <grin>) But in CO, depending on your location, you can exceed that temp many times. Be aware of your operating temps then as well. I am guessing, but I suspect you will do more damage from overheating than you will from operating in colder temps. Can anyone confirm that for me?

And one last thought. I noticed that with the Chinese lasers that I am considering, the operating parameters they give are realllllllllly wide. They were specifying something on the order of 32 to 110 F. That is more of a swing than I operate in. <temperature wimp....I admit it!! Especially on the high end. Cold is fine with me.> Hard to imagine that is OK. So even though they give that as a range I will try to even out the ambient temperature where the laser lives as economically as I can. Again, why risk damaging even a "cheap" chinese laser when it would take so little to mitigate it?

Dave

[Joe Hillmann]

When other people have asked similar questions it was suggested that a light bulb could be put inside the laser and turned on to keep it a bit warmer. If that isn't enough you could cover it with a blanket as well.

As far as summer goes once you get above 80 degrees the power starts to drop off. On some of those horrible August days even with the ac on I can't keep the lasers cool enough to keep the building below 80 so if I need something done I will come in at two or three in the morning when the temp is as low as it is going to get and run till it gets too warm and stop for the day.

As far as not having room in the house. (These ideas may be a bit too redneck for you)

You could put it in the living room. If it would be an eye sore you could build a three sided cabinet with the front being fake drawers and doors that you slide out of the way when you want to use the laser.

If you have a bathroom that doesn't get much use you could pull out the toilet and sink and put the laser in there. (it already may have the connections for your blower)

Extra bedroom?

Closet?

Storage area in the basement?

If you are really determined I sure you can find a spot for it but it may take some compromise.

[David Somers]

Great ideas Joe!

A doily or a nice table runner would help it blend into the room. Don't forget to ask your family and friends to avail themselves of the coasters though. It is a pain to have to keep cleaning cup rings off your new Trotec top all the time.

Not sure I would keep it in the bathroom. Unless you have tested your GFCI outlets of course. Laser Engraver/bathtub tragedies are all too common nowadays.

In Hawaii many folks kept their fridge, washer and dryer out on the lanai. Weather was nice and so houses were small and they were loathe to eat up interior house space with appliances. Perhaps your Trotect could stay on your covered porch? Maybe a nice Gazebo in the yard? Could be quite the focal point to enhance your curb appeal?

<grin>

Dave

[Don Corbeil]

Everybody has their own limits of risk and wiliness to take chances. To spend thousands on a piece of equipment and in essence put it in a barn is hard for me to understand. :confused:

Mike, this garage area is definitely not like a barn. It's not a typical 'outbuilding' type structure. It is a small, attached, partially insulated, and has a much narrower temperature gradient than something like a barn or metal building. Granted, it is not ideal, and your point is well taken, but it is one of those spaces you often see converted into additional living spaces in many older homes. In fact, it wouldn't take much to do this, and is an option.

[Don Corbeil]

I'm not sure about the trotec cartridge, but I could easily take the ULS cartridge inside for any period of time when not in use. This would be a nice compromise to heating the entire space when not operating.

[Mike Lassiter]

Mike, this garage area is definitely not like a barn. It's not a typical 'outbuilding' type structure. It is a small, attached, partially insulated, and has a much narrower temperature gradient than something like a barn or metal building. Granted, it is not ideal, and your point is well taken, but it is one of those spaces you often see converted into additional living spaces in many older homes. In fact, it wouldn't take much to do this, and is an option.

Don you should make doing so apart of what is necessary for you to get your laser properly setup. Often overlooked is the fact that if you will need to operate your laser when it is cold outside or very hot you will have to also run an exhaust blower while running the laser. If you consider you will be basically blowing hundreds of cubic feet a minute of air out of the building it will not take very long at all (minutes at best) before you have basically took all the conditioned air inside the building and blown it outside. That air will have to be made up inside from air leakage into the building or a window or something opened to allow you to properly exhaust the laser. If the building is tight and has little leakage you will starve the blower for air and will not have the air available for the blower to exhaust, hence you will not have good fume extraction. I have chosen to recirculate the air in my small shop because it wouldn't take much at all for my 3-1/2 HP blower to completely change the air inside from heated to ambient which right now would be around 30 degrees. Expecting 60 degrees in a couple of days, been in the mid teens at night. I couldn't afford to run a unit capable of keeping my inside temp at the recommended range (much less afford the unit itself to do that) while exchanging that much volume of air inside a 12x32 building.

There is a lot to consider before the laser is ordered and arrives. I had 4 months waiting for mine to be built. I had to store it inside a semi trailer while I tried to finish getting the building ready. My laser is a monster itself, and the crate it came in even more so. Very hot when I got it, and even though it was not stored at the recommended temperature range I had no choice otherwise until I got the building ready. I didn't figure sitting in a semi trailer was any worse than it sitting in one being shipped from Arizona to Tennessee. I was working 12+ hour days then and working until midnight to 2 am trying to get everything done. Still didn't have sheetrock all done when we put laser inside shop, but had air conditioner installed and had to cover laser good to keep sheetrock dust away while hanging and finishing rest of ceilings and walls.

I wasn't implying you were talking about putting it in a barn, but trying to prompt more thinking about what you are spending needing the best you can give to make it last and work it's best. One other point is when a building cools down or heats up and you then heat or cool it, even when the air temperature becomes more in normal range everything else hasn't normalized yet. How long does it take a ice cube to melt taken out of the freezer and left out in your kitchen? Metal gets cold, components get cold. Just because the air temperature increased doesn't mean everything is equalized in temperature.
I wouldn't expect warranty to cover a failure if it is related to something the manufacturer can say operating or storing in out of recommended temperature range caused.

[Don Corbeil]

Operating
Temperature
50ºF (10ºC) to 95ºF (35º C) capable
73ºF (22ºC) to 77ºF (25º C) for best performance
Storage Temperature
50ºF (10ºC) to 95ºF (35º C)
Operating Humidity
Non-condensing



ULS gives much more specific data for both operating and storage temp ranges. The storage temperature range noted here falls more into my typical temp range.

[Don Corbeil]

Don you should make doing so apart of what is necessary for you to get your laser properly setup. Often overlooked is the fact that if you will need to operate your laser when it is cold outside or very hot you will have to also run an exhaust blower while running the laser. If you consider you will be basically blowing hundreds of cubic feet a minute of air out of the building it will not take very long at all (minutes at best) before you have basically took all the conditioned air inside the building and blown it outside. That air will have to be made up inside from air leakage into the building or a window or something opened to allow you to properly exhaust the laser. If the building is tight and has little leakage you will starve the blower for air and will not have the air available for the blower to exhaust, hence you will not have good fume extraction. I have chosen to recirculate the air in my small shop because it wouldn't take much at all for my 3-1/2 HP blower to completely change the air inside from heated to ambient which right now would be around 30 degrees. Expecting 60 degrees in a couple of days, been in the mid teens at night. I couldn't afford to run a unit capable of keeping my inside temp at the recommended range (much less afford the unit itself to do that) while exchanging that much volume of air inside a 12x32 building.

There is a lot to consider before the laser is ordered and arrives. I had 4 months waiting for mine to be built. I had to store it inside a semi trailer while I tried to finish getting the building ready. My laser is a monster itself, and the crate it came in even more so. Very hot when I got it, and even though it was not stored at the recommended temperature range I had no choice otherwise until I got the building ready. I didn't figure sitting in a semi trailer was any worse than it sitting in one being shipped from Arizona to Tennessee. I was working 12+ hour days then and working until midnight to 2 am trying to get everything done. Still didn't have sheetrock all done when we put laser inside shop, but had air conditioner installed and had to cover laser good to keep sheetrock dust away while hanging and finishing rest of ceilings and walls.

I wasn't implying you were talking about putting it in a barn, but trying to prompt more thinking about what you are spending needing the best you can give to make it last and work it's best. One other point is when a building cools down or heats up and you then heat or cool it, even when the air temperature becomes more in normal range everything else hasn't normalized yet. How long does it take a ice cube to melt taken out of the freezer and left out in your kitchen? Metal gets cold, components get cold. Just because the air temperature increased doesn't mean everything is equalized in temperature.
I wouldn't expect warranty to cover a failure if it is related to something the manufacturer can say operating or storing in out of recommended temperature range caused.

All excellent points Mike, and well taken. I think the area can be brought to a place of acceptable climate control without too much expense and this will be addressed before I install the unit. It's almost there, except that it just doesn't have furnace ductwork running to it, and needs to be fully insulated. I think the comments here from everyone reinforced that little voice in the back of my mind that was making me hesitate before jumping in with both feet :D

thanks for everyone's comments and opinions.

[Kev Williams]

I recently had to migrate to my garage to make room for more equipment. My floor space works out to about 380 sq ft. Having had a good experience with my 30k btu ventless fireplace, I decided to buy a ventless wall heater...
282435

It's also 30k btu, and has a 2-stage burner that only uses the second stage if you crank it up to warm up the room faster. Otherwise it burns at (IIRC) about 22k btu. I paid $217 to my door from Ebay. It will connect up to LP or natural gas (I'm using NG). Since all the heat goes in the room, it's 99% efficient. I've been using it since the middle of December. Using my gas company's weather-corrected figures, I calculated that it cost me $34 in gas for January. I keep the garage about 65° in the day, and about 57° at night. My garage is hardly "well insulated" either. The main side walls are just brick, I stuffed some 3" insulation in the pockets of the garage door, and kinda-sorta plugged up a few gaping air leaks. The ceiling IS insulated well, so that helps. These types of heaters are infamous for creating humidity, but I haven't seen a drop of condensation anywhere, and the room has no 'muggy' feel to it.

I considered just running some ductwork from the furnace to the garage, but this was cheaper, and WAY less work. And I tried the add-a-duct heating method to a patio-to-family room conversion in my last house, which was only 12 x 22'. That duct didn't do squat to heat that room, and it robbed the rest of the house of warm air.

Anyway, I love this heater, and for a buck a day I can't beat it...

[Walt Langhans]

For what it's worth...

I've had my laser in my non climate controlled garage since i've had it. I live in Atlanta GA and we've have weather that will start out in the teens and end up in the seventies in the same day with 98% humidity. The only time I won't run the laser is if the temp is under freezing (which is the bottom of my operating range on my tube) and here's what I've learned.

Large temperature swings have caused my belts to expand and contract enough that it will cause up to 1/16th" error. It's an easy fix by adjusting the tension on the belts but if you don't catch it can obviously cause issues.

I work mostly with MDF and when there is high humidity the smoke from the cutting becomes... more dense (?, I guess, not really sure) but the end result is that I need to clean the lense and mirrors more often.

Other than that I haven't run into any other issues, well none caused by climate anyway. However, the list of issues that I've caused myself is a completely different situation :P

Hope that helps!