3rd (and Final) batch of interior doors

[mreza Salav]

As some of you remember, I am making 31 interior doors for a new house we are building. I have built two batches already (5+12). This is the final batch of 14 doors including 3 French doors. Previous ones:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?205854-Building-a-few-interior-doors&highlight=
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?210969-Second-batch-of-doors&highlight=

All the previous ones were 32" but these last ones are of various sizes from 24" to 32"; they are made the same way as before (1/2" dowels with glued in panel). For the French doors I am doing traditional M/T joinery:

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Here is a dry fit of one of them:

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and here is the glue-up:

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and here are all the doors glued up and gone through the drum sander:

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And another french door with the moulding placed on top to see how it looks:

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All are beveled glass (the clear and the privacy ones).
It remains to hand sand them (ROS), cut to size and apply the mouldings, then I can move on to the next project for the house.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Mreza, I have really been enjoying your posts on the doors. So much so that I am now thinking I can tackle the doors for my place. Thank you kindly, Patrick

[eugene thomas]

I am making all doors for my house at moment also. But have a total of 15. Am making the final 7 now. I used mortise and tenon for joinery.

[Jay Jolliffe]

Nice Job....I hope you made the doors with the leaded glass so you can take it out to repair if needed....

[Stephen Musial]

Nice Job....I hope you made the doors with the leaded glass so you can take it out to repair if needed....

Exactly. It looks like you inset the leaded glass as part of the door. They should have a dado for the glass to sit in, glazers points to hold the glass in place and then molding over the dado to dress out the door. The molding is only nailed in place (not glued) and either coped or butt jointed to facilitate easy removal (miters almost always break).

[Peter Quinn]

Looking good! Where did you source the leaded glass? Is it removable or captive?

[mreza Salav]

Thanks all.
The glass is a unit and has to be replaced as a whole even if one of the 15 pieces break. I thought about this possibility but decided to set it in the groove (like a panel) during the glue-up. Instead of cutting one side of the door to inset the door now I'll cut it if/when the glass breaks; that's not difficult to do using a router (exactly what I would do now). The moulding from that side will be pin-nailed in only for easy removal.

Peter, I went to a local supplier of doors and looked at their French doors and asked if I can buy the glass only. It turned out the manufacturer of the doors was a local (in-town) company and it was fairly easy/quick to get the glass units; they were around $100 each.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

What'd wood did you make the doors out of?

[eugene thomas]

$100 that sounds like good price. Did ya use tempered glass?

[Phil Thien]

They (as well as previous doors) all look fantastic.

So who is going to install them? I hope you have a good door guy, I'd hate to see any of them get butchered.

Or are you the door guy?

[mreza Salav]

Wood is maple, glass is no tempered AFAIK.
I will make the jambs (that's the easy part), bore the lever holes as well as hinges and install them myself.
Any suggestions/comments as I have never installed a door!:) (well, had never built a door either until these).

Here is a question: The floor will be hardwood. Should the jambs be installed 3/4" (or so) off the sub-floor or is it Ok to have the jambs installed on the sub-floor and have the flooring go around it?

[Jeff Duncan]

Nice!!! Looks like everything is coming along great!

That's a great price you got for the leaded glass, that stuff can get expensive quick. I did a cabinet several years ago for a client requesting leaded glass and the glass alone was something like $1500 or so. Of course custom is always more $$$…..not a great pic, but you get the idea….
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_0314.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_0314.jpg.html)

I had a local Artisan do them and dropped off the unfitted doors/panels for him to fit the glass to. Worked well as you can see the lead running along the inside edge.

As far as the door installation goes…..I'd install them after the floors go in myself.

good luck,
JeffD

[Dan Neuhaus]

Great doors. I've hung a few dozen doors and you should definitely undercut the jambs for the flooring. Or as mentioned above wait till the floors are finished to hang them. Makes it much easier if the floors are site finished. There's some different ideas on hanging doors out there, Gary Katz has a couple good videos on the web.

[mreza Salav]

Hmmm... I will be doing most of the finish work in the house (or at least thats the plan) and that includes a lot of wood trim/work. I'd like to install and finish most of them (perhaps except the baseboards) before the hardwood floor goes in as it will be a lot less hassle (no need to protect the floor).
Jeff: those look very nice. I couldn't have the lead show on the sides as it was only about 3/8" or so of it on the edge and it went all in the groove.

[Peter Quinn]

You can hang the doors and let the floor installers undercut the jambs, most will own a jamb saw for the purpose. I've worked in lots of spaces with floors in before other finishes ( cabinets, doors, base mold etc) and the precautions are crazy, every trade on egg shells, homosote and Rosen paper ever where. You could also get some flooring pieces and tack shorts just to set the jambs, pull them, do flooring later. It's good if they can put a sealer plus one on the floors and plan for the last coat post production of everything else, but building schedules don't always permit. I've also worked where raw wood floors went in early, guys worked right on them with no protection, flooring guy sanded them out and finished, looked perfect, so if you are site finishing that can work. Did a kitchen last summer where the original appliance installers were gorillas and butchers, shocking the damage they did to the finished flooring, I say original because they were thrown off job and replaced, flooring guy fixed it all in his last coat, he was the last guy in on the punch list.

I love the glass but can't drive to Edmonton! I have a 10 lite door in mind for my study...actually "the pastors study".....I live in a former parsonage. Somebody along the line decided to scrap every door in this old bungalow. I envisioned either a 5 vertical glass panel or 10 lite with very thin bars, that leaded glass panel approach would be perfect. Here in US safety glass is required on doors, either tempered or laminated, if be surprised if your wasn't one of the two as well. Canadian codes are usually ahead of US on most safety and building envelope issues.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Wood is maple, glass is no tempered AFAIK.
I will make the jambs (that's the easy part), bore the lever holes as well as hinges and install them myself.
Any suggestions/comments as I have never installed a door!:) (well, had never built a door either until these).

Here is a question: The floor will be hardwood. Should the jambs be installed 3/4" (or so) off the sub-floor or is it Ok to have the jambs installed on the sub-floor and have the flooring go around it?

We just built our home last summer and I installed the doors and hardwood floors. I left the jams off the floor the thickness of the flooring plus 1/8" and it worked out pretty well.

On edit: I recommend you put the floor in last, the chance of damaging the hardwood while installing all those doors is great. You also can spray the walls and trim with wild abandon without the floors installed.

[mreza Salav]

Hardwoods are prefinished and *IF* I have the time I'll install them myself (over 4200sqf of it!) or shell out the $9k an installer asks for around here. I want them to go the very last (after cabinets, doors, even paint). The only item I might put after is the baseboard (and I'll have them pre-finished).
Dennis: I'll probably do what you did, keep them off the sub-floor just a little over thickness of the hardwood.

The only thing I am not 100% sure about yet is: I'll build the jamb and pre-hung the door on it before installation. I'll need a section at the bottom of the frame/jamb to hold it (almost) square with the door (the doors are HEAVY). I'll need to remove cut that section after the jamb/door is installed. What's the best way to have that piece secured that makes it easy to remove/cut it after installation?

[Jeff Duncan]

If you do the floors yourself, (which certainly will save you a boatload of cash), you need 2 important items before you start…..good quality knee pads and plenty of Aleve! By the time your done you probably won't be walking much, and your hammer arm is going to feel like it's falling off! I've done smaller <1000 sq. ft. spaces and it is not much fun:(

As for pre-hanging I use small strips of 1/2" scrap ply screwed up through the bottom. I usually mark the bottoms in position, cut them lying down with a chop saw setup, and then hang them. Jambs are pretty light, even hardwood jambs with casing pre-attached, so you have to be pretty careless to damage the floors. And most of my jobs are in finished spaces anyway, so working with finished floors is just the norm for me;) Oh and if your thinking of hanging the jambs with the doors in them I wouldn't! Way too many places for that to go wrong. Hang the jambs then pop the doors back in. Or if you want to be really meticulous with it….secure the hinge side fully, then pop the door on and finish the latch side.

good luck,
JeffD

[Dan Neuhaus]

I always find it easier to get the gaps between the door and jamb even with the door in place. Just tack it in first if the weight is an issue.

http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2013/08/09/problem-free-prefit-doors/

[keith micinski]

I find it way easier to install the door already pre hung. I think I may have tried doing a door jamb loose one time and then basically had to redo everything for the gaps to look good. It's much easier to keep everything square and get your door lines perfect. Just tape it shut in the closed position to hold it. It's so easy now a days with a universal saw tool to cut jambs I wouldn't mess around with trying to guess how high to hang them or how much to add. Just set them flush with the subfloor and trim them to fit as your installing the floor. I think you'll get a much better fit that way and it's probably quicker and easier to. Make sure you start on the hinge side first if no one said that that yet. I have started using the door lines "eyeball test" to start with more then levels and squareness to set them as I find this gets you a lot closer a lot quicker and then once I am happy I start checking things with actual measuring devices.:D

I also do something that I never see anyone else doing but I find it very helpful in door installation. I take my brad nailer and fasten the door jamb first with some 18g brads. This is plenty strong enough to secure the door and gives you plenty of leeway to nudge the door in and out and up and down while getting all of your gaps and plumbness set but still keeps everything pretty much in place. My iPad is telling me plumbness isn't a word but I think it is so I am going with it:D I also like to center the door in the opening whenever possible and usually the first thing I do is check the hinge side of the jamb wall for plumb. If it's good which sometimes it actually is I pre nail up one shim at all 3 hinge locations making it much easier to do your fine tuning with only one shim moving back and forth.

On a side note I see that you are planning on installing cabinetry before you install flooring which is a bad idea unless you plan on maybe using plywood to bring the cabinets up to floor level. And that still a bad idea. I don't know how many time I have struggled trying install someone's dishwasher that has ceramic tile added after the fact and now the floor height relationship to the counter top is so low you can't get the old one out let alone the new one in. It also makes installation of the cabinetry go smoother and easier when you have a solid uniform surface to install the lowers on.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks for the comments/suggestions.

As for cabinets before flooring: I am thinking of making plywood boxes (or web I should call) on which the lower cabinets will sit. This way, I can level those boxes first and then install the lowers, they will then be covered with toe kicks (flooring will be hardwood there as well). I don't see how this could be an issue with dishwasher installation ever, so would be glad to know how this can go wrong. I know there are those who are in the camp of flooring first and then cabinets and there are others who do it the other way around. I'm not an expert (as I have never built or installed cabinets) and am open to suggestions.

[keith micinski]

As long as you make a plywood box for the dishwasher to sit on also it won't. Of course all of your base cabinets are going to be higher off the floor by the height of your boxes raising your counter top height also unless you are making your own cabinetry and then accounting for the plywood boxes height. Then your back to having the problem of the flooring still being 3/4 of an inch higher.

[mreza Salav]

Well, the doors are finally done and packed away. Here is the photo of one of the french doors with the moulding applied:

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and here is the rest of this 3rd batch packed. Now I can move on to the next project:

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[eugene thomas]

I have feeling unwrapping them packs is going to lead into a lot more work.

[Mark Bolton]

As an aside from your door construction, I cant see how in a home of this scale how your not going to leave the final coat paint until after all the trim is on? Unless your having some balls to the wall skim coat plaster crew come in an run this house dead flat, your going to have gaps between the case and wall, base and wall, and virtually any wood to drywall surface. To think of building a home of the scale of your friends (you posted pictures of) and walking through the house looking down at gaps between the base and wall, and at door casing gaps, would be ghastly.

Again, and I know its the norm, but your talking about pre-finished base? How will you sand in scarf joints on long runs? How will you deal with nail holes? What happens if you have to pull a piece of base in to a nasty hollow or fat corner? Color putty?

The more I read about stuff like this the more I realize the world is changing.

In my world the paint is dead last. The only thing behind it "may" be carpet (but surely not on this scale). And thats because it should go on dead tight, in one shot, and never a single touch up. There is no way in the hot place you can paint a job and then set base, doors, cabs, appliances, and so on, without a boff. And a boff means a touchup, and a touchup means a hack. Even the best touchups out there will show in raking light.

It seems like home building is moving farther and farther toward commercial construction (lest hope the cost goes the same way).

I simply cant see a stick of trim going into a place like the pictures you posted pre-finished. There is simply no way the joints, corners, miters, will be tight/clean/crisp. Its just not possible.

[mreza Salav]

Mark, that house I was visiting all the way through construction. The trim work was installed and then stained/lacqeured. Then the walls are painted, and finally the hardwood (which is pre-finished) is installed. So painting is done after the trim work and my plan for my house is the same, install all the trim work and have them stained, then paint the walls, and at the very last lay hardwood (or else you'll get all sorts of dings/scratches over the hardwood). Does this sound different from how you'd do it? The finisher of that house has unfortunately passed away but he was a master in my mind, extremely good job all around and they were all his design. I wish I had seen how he had done the curved wainscotting. I had seen him how he was bent laminating some of the archs on his job-site bench using very simple job-site-made clamps (screws/scraps on the bench).
The only thing I'm thinking of doing (that I'm unsure of how) is to stain the crown and baseboards before installation (to save on taping/masking of all places) and I don't think that's going to work..

[Jim Andrew]

When I installed doors before floor, I liked the jambs to touch the floor, so used a piece of the flooring, and a piece of thick paper to make the space loose enough to get the flooring under the jambs. I used unfinished flooring if I were putting it down before the other finish work. If you use unfinished wood, you can install it before the drywall goes in, as the sanding takes care of any scratches. Of course, the last thing you do is finish the floor. Laying the flooring before drywall makes it a LOT easier to nail the flooring along the edges.

[keith micinski]

As an aside from your door construction, I cant see how in a home of this scale how your not going to leave the final coat paint until after all the trim is on? Unless your having some balls to the wall skim coat plaster crew come in an run this house dead flat, your going to have gaps between the case and wall, base and wall, and virtually any wood to drywall surface. To think of building a home of the scale of your friends (you posted pictures of) and walking through the house looking down at gaps between the base and wall, and at door casing gaps, would be ghastly.

Again, and I know its the norm, but your talking about pre-finished base? How will you sand in scarf joints on long runs? How will you deal with nail holes? What happens if you have to pull a piece of base in to a nasty hollow or fat corner? Color putty?

The more I read about stuff like this the more I realize the world is changing.

In my world the paint is dead last. The only thing behind it "may" be carpet (but surely not on this scale). And thats because it should go on dead tight, in one shot, and never a single touch up. There is no way in the hot place you can paint a job and then set base, doors, cabs, appliances, and so on, without a boff. And a boff means a touchup, and a touchup means a hack. Even the best touchups out there will show in raking light.

It seems like home building is moving farther and farther toward commercial construction (lest hope the cost goes the same way).

I simply cant see a stick of trim going into a place like the pictures you posted pre-finished. There is simply no way the joints, corners, miters, will be tight/clean/crisp. Its just not possible.


Im the exact opposite. I don't put a piece of trim up that isn't prefinished or painted and more importantly wouldn't consider ever putting trim up without painting the wall first. I have yet to see a cut in paint line that's good enough I could justify putting the trim up first. I would much rather have a touch up that can be seen when the light is absolutely perfect then cut in lines

[Mark Bolton]

Im the exact opposite. I don't put a piece of trim up that isn't prefinished or painted and more importantly wouldn't consider ever putting trim up without painting the wall first. I have yet to see a cut in paint line that's good enough I could justify putting the trim up first. I would much rather have a touch up that can be seen when the light is absolutely perfect then cut in lines

Keith,
Well, the simple fact of the matter is pre-finished trim and painting first is simply a downgrade. Its done first and foremost for speed and cost cutting and that reason alone. An uncut line at the trim may be a side bonus "if" your trim is lucky enough to sit dead tight (and I mean dead tight) to every single millimeter of wall it touches. That is simply never the case, especially in a drywall job. Its just not the way its done in high end work. With pre-finished anything, you have absolutely zero ability to sand-in corners/miter, scarf joints, fill holes, and so on. You take crown for instance which nearly always requires attention at a scarf joint or sweetening and outside corner and its simply not possible. You either caulk it if its paint, or fill it with color putty if its natural. Both are down grades but they are down grades that have become the norm in the HGTV world which lives by the 60 mile an hour rule.

Im not trying to be offensive here because I know fully this is the way the industry is moving and its not going to change. I in fact do pre-finished at times also, but its on a downgraded job where the customer is trying to be cost conscious. Its faster to paint with no cutting it, its faster to set the trim because you are not worried about getting it dead perfect, and you know your going to see the joints. Its just inevitable with pre-finished. Its no different than seeing the joints in a pre-finished hardwood floor as compared to a site finished floor. Which one looks better? The site sanded will look like a sheet of glass when done. The pre-finished? Well, it will look like, a, pre-finished floor. Of course the pre-fin is likely half the cost or more now. Why? Because its a down grade. The only gain is speed, mess, and the factory finish being very hard. Other than that pre-fin is done because its cheaper.

With regards to the cut line, if you havent found painters who can cut like a razor or learned to do it yourself I guess your stuck. Will a cut line always be a dead straight and perfect? Probably not, but in critical areas with tape and burnishing your tape you can get more than acceptable results if you cant cut clean without it but regardless there is simply no way (in my world) the gaps that remain between wood trim and drywall (which is never flat) would be left for the customer to live with.

I have walked into homes and seen gaps on top of baseboard so large that they have trapped debris in them. To me its a spec' home approach to the trade but again, in many areas, and for many (including myself at times) thats the work we have to do. But its simply not of high quality.

There is just no way to compare nice trim and millwork installed raw, fitted, sanded, and filled like a piece of furniture, and then finished, to pre-finished. Of course if the job doesnt pay for it you can do it, but they are not mutually exchangeable.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, that house I was visiting all the way through construction. The trim work was installed and then stained/lacqeured. Then the walls are painted, and finally the hardwood (which is pre-finished) is installed. So painting is done after the trim work and my plan for my house is the same, install all the trim work and have them stained, then paint the walls, and at the very last lay hardwood (or else you'll get all sorts of dings/scratches over the hardwood). Does this sound different from how you'd do it? The finisher of that house has unfortunately passed away but he was a master in my mind, extremely good job all around and they were all his design. I wish I had seen how he had done the curved wainscotting. I had seen him how he was bent laminating some of the archs on his job-site bench using very simple job-site-made clamps (screws/scraps on the bench).
The only thing I'm thinking of doing (that I'm unsure of how) is to stain the crown and baseboards before installation (to save on taping/masking of all places) and I don't think that's going to work..

Mreza,
I must have read the base as being pre-finished as opposed to pre-stained. I agree though that this would be difficult to do, especially with regards to the crown. To me at least, there is simply too much fitting and tweaking which needs to happen on both to allow for prefinish. I suppose you could pre-stain and then come in and re-stain areas that required sanding/filling. May or may not turn out to be worth it (my guess is not). In my world you'd install all the trim, finish it, install the floor, then paint. But I understand where your going not wanting trades on the finished floor or the expense of covering it but thats what we do.

Our routine (and again Im not working at your scale) is drywall/plaster, install trim sanding-in, filling, and so on, stain trim (stain gets on raw plaster), finish trim (finish gets on plaster as well), prime (cutting in quickly to trim), run a "tiny" bead of caulk between trim and plaster (barely visible), sand primer w/180 (very fast using radius sanders), first coat, extreme light sand with 220 (again with radius/fast), second coat, never touch the paint again. This is on top of finshed floors. But additionally I dont drop my base on top of tile or finished floors other than on rare occasions. Again, I cant stand the gaps below the baseboard at the base/tile joint. It looks horrendous over time. If we do base on top of tile we come back and run sanded caulk at that joint which is just as much work as tiling to the base like it should be.

We are in a rural area so its can often be more country, and not your scale, but work like this:

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Forgive the grainy phone images. Its far from the scale of what your building but all finished in place, same process.

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks for the comments/suggestions.

As for cabinets before flooring: I am thinking of making plywood boxes (or web I should call) on which the lower cabinets will sit. This way, I can level those boxes first and then install the lowers, they will then be covered with toe kicks (flooring will be hardwood there as well). I don't see how this could be an issue with dishwasher installation ever, so would be glad to know how this can go wrong. I know there are those who are in the camp of flooring first and then cabinets and there are others who do it the other way around. I'm not an expert (as I have never built or installed cabinets) and am open to suggestions.

We build our cabs exactly as your outlining. Detached kicks, level the ladder on the floor and done. You save a lot on your carcass material too (as you probably know). Other than furniture style vanities and cabinetry we never set cabs ontop of the finished floor.

[keith micinski]

In this process how do you account for the finish floor height in relation to the underside of th countertop? I like the idea of leveling the bases first?

[Mel Fulks]

A nice looking modern job, Mark. I say "modern" because years ago nobody would use transoms that didn't line up with the glass in the doors. These things change , but I never hesitate to try to "correct " them. First time I ever heard of every
thing being pre finished it was for a hotel in another state,no chance of changing the architect's mind about something like
that.

[Mark Bolton]

A nice looking modern job, Mark. I say "modern" because years ago nobody would use transoms that didn't line up with the glass in the doors. These things change , but I never hesitate to try to "correct " them. First time I ever heard of every
thing being pre finished it was for a hotel in another state,no chance of changing the architect's mind about something like
that.

Thanks Mel,
And I agree about the transoms. You wouldnt believe how much of a chore it was going round with my door rep and the manufacturer over those transom's and the GBG alignment. You wouldnt believe the layouts they sent me initially (well, I actually think you would ;) ). They looked horrendous, all odd sizes as they were trying to align the GBG with the lites below which isnt an option. Its just one of those unfortunates with semi's that the glazing is not identical and lining up so neither can the GBG. Your left trying to stack lego blocks into a configuration thats as pleasing to the eye as you can get but it'll never be perfect. This was the best balance I could come up with for semi-custom yet affordable for the customer. Those are Windsors. My main wish was to have an option other than white. I think thats the worst part of the whole thing and made it clear to them that selling a wood interior window with a white interior GBG made no sense, but again, the lego factor. Im very happy with it and its part of a much much larger project with many similar elements. One of those jobs where Ive asked the customer to sell me the house repeatedly. HAH.

As you say, its just times-are-a-changin'. I am in a very rural area so to even get customers who are willing to go to that level is simply a treat so I dont complain. I have been able to adjust for a long time but Im honestly seeing a lot of changes that are making me feel like its time to chase other ventures. Im unfortunately one of these people who if my heart isnt in it my work suffers and I cant seem to get my head around the way the industry is moving and how fast. I also just cant seem to sit back and take the money, the frustration gets to be too much.

[Mark Bolton]

In this process how do you account for the finish floor height in relation to the underside of th countertop? I like the idea of leveling the bases first?

For us we simply build the kicks allowing for the finshed floor thickness. For instance 4.75 for a 4" kick with 3/4" floor. The flooring can be layed even before the cabs are in if needed. The real plus is when you eliminate the kick you can get 6 sides out of a sheet when building your carcass' as opposed to only 4 and a large off-cut.

[Jeff Duncan]

I was with you Mark right up until installing baseboard before the flooring. I know this is done all the time as it's the cheaper way to go. Which surprises me that you'd go through all that talk about doing things right, only to do a full reversal at the end? Solid wood flooring needs to move and in order to allow it to move you need expansion gaps. You can either allow for them at the edges and install baseboard on top, which of course would be scribed just like any other piece of trim. Or you can push them up against the pre-installed baseboard and use a small molding, usually a 1/4 round, to cover the gap. Personally I am not a fan of the quarter round solution as it screams out exactly what it is. So i install baseboard after when possible.

I also install cabinets after flooring…..always. You save nothing really by doing the reverse….what's a few extra sq. ft. of flooring under the cabs? And you now have a complete floor with cabinetry on top, instead of a chopped up floor with cabinets sunk into it. In reality it's easier for both trades this way, the flooring guys can run the floor without obstruction. Plus easier to sand and finish to a better quality with no cabs in the way. Then cabs come in and drop in place on a floor with no need for bumping up to match flooring that's not there yet.

Pre-finished is an interesting debate. I've done things both ways and cannot honestly say there's a one size fits all approach. I know this thread is about an individual home and in that case you can do whatever floats your boat. However often times in residential and even commercial it is not practical, or even possible to do on site finishing. This is just a fact of life these days. You can't always go into a place whether a restaurant or someones condo and start spraying solvent based finishes. Sometimes it doesn't necessarily matter what an architect, designer, or owner wants, it's about what you can and cannot do. So while I don't do a lot of trim, most of what I install is pre-finished, no choice in the matter. Paint grade is a different animal altogether however and most of the time you can paint after installation. My norm is to have all cabinetry and trim painted and just touch up the pin holes. Again, I'm not doing full houses of trim work so that's a bit different. But when I do that stuff on my own home I prime everything first, then install with a good construction adhesive. Caulk everything and then spot prime where needed. I'm not a great painter by anyones definition, but I can cut a line good enough for my needs….it's really not all that difficult with a little practice;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

I was with you Mark right up until installing baseboard before the flooring. I know this is done all the time as it's the cheaper way to go. Which surprises me that you'd go through all that talk about doing things right, only to do a full reversal at the end? Solid wood flooring needs to move and in order to allow it to move you need expansion gaps. You can either allow for them at the edges and install baseboard on top, which of course would be scribed just like any other piece of trim. Or you can push them up against the pre-installed baseboard and use a small molding, usually a 1/4 round, to cover the gap. Personally I am not a fan of the quarter round solution as it screams out exactly what it is. So i install baseboard after when possible.

I also install cabinets after flooring…..always. You save nothing really by doing the reverse….what's a few extra sq. ft. of flooring under the cabs? And you now have a complete floor with cabinetry on top, instead of a chopped up floor with cabinets sunk into it. In reality it's easier for both trades this way, the flooring guys can run the floor without obstruction. Plus easier to sand and finish to a better quality with no cabs in the way. Then cabs come in and drop in place on a floor with no need for bumping up to match flooring that's not there yet.

Pre-finished is an interesting debate. I've done things both ways and cannot honestly say there's a one size fits all approach. I know this thread is about an individual home and in that case you can do whatever floats your boat. However often times in residential and even commercial it is not practical, or even possible to do on site finishing. This is just a fact of life these days. You can't always go into a place whether a restaurant or someones condo and start spraying solvent based finishes. Sometimes it doesn't necessarily matter what an architect, designer, or owner wants, it's about what you can and cannot do. So while I don't do a lot of trim, most of what I install is pre-finished, no choice in the matter. Paint grade is a different animal altogether however and most of the time you can paint after installation. My norm is to have all cabinetry and trim painted and just touch up the pin holes. Again, I'm not doing full houses of trim work so that's a bit different. But when I do that stuff on my own home I prime everything first, then install with a good construction adhesive. Caulk everything and then spot prime where needed. I'm not a great painter by anyones definition, but I can cut a line good enough for my needs….it's really not all that difficult with a little practice;)

good luck,
JeffD

Ditto the prefinished. We do a lot of work that goes into NYC, they have very restrictive VOC laws, and the neighbors will shut you down quick if you violate them with site finishing, so prefinished everything is the norm, and its a growing trend.

[Mark Bolton]

I was with you Mark right up until installing baseboard before the flooring. I know this is done all the time as it's the cheaper way to go. Which surprises me that you'd go through all that talk about doing things right, only to do a full reversal at the end? Solid wood flooring needs to move and in order to allow it to move you need expansion gaps. You can either allow for them at the edges and install baseboard on top, which of course would be scribed just like any other piece of trim. Or you can push them up against the pre-installed baseboard and use a small molding, usually a 1/4 round, to cover the gap. Personally I am not a fan of the quarter round solution as it screams out exactly what it is. So i install baseboard after when possible.

I also install cabinets after flooring…..always. You save nothing really by doing the reverse….what's a few extra sq. ft. of flooring under the cabs? And you now have a complete floor with cabinetry on top, instead of a chopped up floor with cabinets sunk into it. In reality it's easier for both trades this way, the flooring guys can run the floor without obstruction. Plus easier to sand and finish to a better quality with no cabs in the way. Then cabs come in and drop in place on a floor with no need for bumping up to match flooring that's not there yet.

Pre-finished is an interesting debate. I've done things both ways and cannot honestly say there's a one size fits all approach. I know this thread is about an individual home and in that case you can do whatever floats your boat. However often times in residential and even commercial it is not practical, or even possible to do on site finishing. This is just a fact of life these days. You can't always go into a place whether a restaurant or someones condo and start spraying solvent based finishes. Sometimes it doesn't necessarily matter what an architect, designer, or owner wants, it's about what you can and cannot do. So while I don't do a lot of trim, most of what I install is pre-finished, no choice in the matter. Paint grade is a different animal altogether however and most of the time you can paint after installation. My norm is to have all cabinetry and trim painted and just touch up the pin holes. Again, I'm not doing full houses of trim work so that's a bit different. But when I do that stuff on my own home I prime everything first, then install with a good construction adhesive. Caulk everything and then spot prime where needed. I'm not a great painter by anyones definition, but I can cut a line good enough for my needs….it's really not all that difficult with a little practice;)

good luck,
JeffD

I think we are actually on the same page but as you say were talking about a multitude of different types work here when Im speaking to a new home at the level of the pictures posted here. I agree with you fully that pre-finished has its place. Like I say, I do it all the time and am currently finishing up a very large home which oddly is very large (5100' under roof, 4700+ insde) but built with a massive eye on budget. We prefinished every stick and painted with no trim for one reason and one reason only, to cut costs. I had them go with a neutral wall color that I knew I could color match a caulk to and went around and caulked critical areas after the fact but to be honest there are gaps everywhere that would simply be unacceptable on any other job but, as I have already said, you cant deliver what your not paid for. Likewise, the kitchen in this house, while beautiful to virtually anyone who walks in, is not finely color matched with regard to panels and so on. Thankfully they like "character" which is what we will call it :). Again, you have to give what your compensated for, that goes without saying.

I personally dont have a problem dropping cabs on the finished floor, I just dont do it personally, and I really dont like it over tile. I dont agree that it doesnt cost more though. With the flooring of today, and the labor costs today, with a home of any size you could easily blow 80-100' of flooring under cabs. At 10-15 bucks a foot for average flooring that will add up. Forget about some high dollar stuff. Its just a waste in my opinion. We run flooring around obstacles on every single job. A bank of wall cabs is just wall? Why is it so hard to lay up to that.;) I could see some intricate island or something but...

I know its a knit pick but there will be a gap at every single grout intersection that will trap dirt and darken over time. I guess the answer is to go back and caulk that gap or live with it if it doesnt bother you. My aim has always been to build projects that "live well". Meaning very wipe-able surfaces, easy to clean, dont hold and trap dirt, and so on. The gaps and cracks of the new "do it last" style of construction dont accommodate that. Its not uncommon for me to go into jobs years and years later and they look just as good as the day I left. Its not bragging, anyone can do it, its just taking a few extra pains and paying attention to it. But broken record, you of course have to be compensated for it.

I am with you 100% on the pre-finished in many jobs especially where you are and not doing new construction. You just have to do it, there is no other way.

With regards to the hardwood, I agree with you fully about the movement issue. I was born and raised about 40 miles from your area and every single home built had hardwood and they were all fitted between the base. Of course rooms were small, though some were not. I can honestly tell you I have ripped out miles of hardwood there and here in WV that were laid between the base and of course they didnt come out because they were buckling. My gut feeling about these houses is that even with acclimation to the house before installation the general rule is this flooring is going to shrink rather than swell after installation unless there is a moisture issue in the home. It was never an issue even in my own home and the floor was dead tight the day I left (built in the 60's).

All that said, I lay them inbound, with gap and shoe. I dont like the shoe either but I am most often working with hardwood trim and at least 5" tall and #1 your not going to shove it down tight to the floor no matter what you do #2 if you were able to shove it down tight you'd trap the floor (also an issue with setting cabs on large floors *floating*) and #3 back to the being compensated part, Im not going to scribe and plane the base to the floor if Im not compensated for it.

Most homeowners I work for actually prefer the shoe and ask where it is if you dont put one down. Go figure.

[keith micinski]

For us we simply build the kicks allowing for the finshed floor thickness. For instance 4.75 for a 4" kick with 3/4" floor. The flooring can be layed even before the cabs are in if needed. The real plus is when you eliminate the kick you can get 6 sides out of a sheet when building your carcass' as opposed to only 4 and a large off-cut.

And then you build a filler panel to go on top the subfloor in the dishwasher spot?

[Mark Bolton]

And then you build a filler panel to go on top the subfloor in the dishwasher spot?

Well there is no filler. The finished floor (and required underlayment) are simply laid into the dishwasher area. No different than under the stove/range.

[Jeff Duncan]

Mark, I think a huge difference is location as well. Around here a 5k+ sq. ft. house would not be the norm. I know they've become hugely popular in other parts of the country, but no so much up here where you have to heat all that:eek: So average kitchen size for me would probably be under 300 sq. ft..

Personally I can't wrap my head around people who want to build these mini mansions and then cut costs by building as cheaply as possible? Why not build a smaller but better quality house? Whenever I walk into one of the McMansions I leave feeling less than impressed. I see far better quality going into the 1000 sq. ft condo's in the city;)

JeffD

[Mark Bolton]

And then you build a filler panel to go on top the subfloor in the dishwasher spot?

I dont know for sure but you may be more thinking in the theme of remodels/reno's where someone has added a floor or tiled over an existing floor but they werent able to carry the flooring into the dishwasher space because then the dishwasher wouldnt fit!! Its usually realized too late and you just live with it leaving the next guy to have to grovel under there and unscrew or cut off the feet to get the dishwasher out or remove the top (if possible).

Most of the newer washers allow you to completely remove the feet making them shorter for this very reason. Of course that doesnt come as comforting news to someone to realize they have to buy a new dishwasher if their old one has to be destroyed for whatever reason to get it out of the hole.

[keith micinski]

The whole point is Mreza said he was going to set the cabinets on the subfloor first and then install the floor. If you set your premade kickers down on the subfloor, level them and then install the floor you are now cutting around all of the cabinets and openings to get the floorings down. I am struggling to see how this isn't a much bigger hassle then just running the flooring first and then setting the cabinets as your last step.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, I think a huge difference is location as well. Around here a 5k+ sq. ft. house would not be the norm. I know they've become hugely popular in other parts of the country, but no so much up here where you have to heat all that:eek: So average kitchen size for me would probably be under 300 sq. ft..

Personally I can't wrap my head around people who want to build these mini mansions and then cut costs by building as cheaply as possible? Why not build a smaller but better quality house? Whenever I walk into one of the McMansions I leave feeling less than impressed. I see far better quality going into the 1000 sq. ft condo's in the city;)

JeffD

Thats been my motto for years and years Jeff. Why not cut footage and pay attention to detail. Sadly it just never seems to happen. When I say 80-100' Im talking an average home. I am talking about flooring under vanities, kitchen cabs, laundry cabs, and so on.

[Mark Bolton]

The whole point is Mreza said he was going to set the cabinets on the subfloor first and then install the floor. If you set your premade kickers down on the subfloor, level them and then install the floor you are now cutting around all of the cabinets and openings to get the floorings down. I am struggling to see how this isn't a much bigger hassle then just running the flooring first and then setting the cabinets as your last step.

Right, I know what your saying. Im guessing it comes down to cost. I have no idea what his flooring is costing him installed, and no offense to him, but he is seeming to want to cut costs anywhere possible. If the kitchen is of any size I would imagine the cost of the flooring wasted under the cabs could be substantial. Its easy to spend someone else's money burying their imported mahogany floor under the cabs but perhaps when were in our own homes and we look at putting 50-60-80 square feet of flooring under cabs and an island, at how ever much a square foot we may play a different tune on the flute. ;)

We floor around obstructions on every job. I just dont see the point. I would guess on this job it may have cost 1000+ in flooring if it had all be run under the cabs? Doesnt sound cheap to me when the flooring guy gets paid per foot not per obstruction. No flooring guy I know prices based on obstructions. Its a per square foot price.

[keith micinski]

When I am installing I do alter for obstructions and how hard the job is. I didn't realize no one else did it that way.

[mreza Salav]

The house is a larger than normal indeed (4500+sqf) and I am building it myself for ourselves. I do want to do it better than normal (R32 walls with spray foam while normal is R21, better insulation in the ceiling, better exterior work, better interior work, etc). I am also doing a lot of work myself for three main reasons: one I think I can get a better result than many trades I can hire *here*, two: the cost would be significantly different, and three: I like to challenge myself.
For instance, a good stairs/railing company who quoted me for the railings wants $15k+tax for 7 (yes seven) box newel posts that look fancy (this is the same company who did that house I posted pictures of earlier). Now, I can certainly build that same quality posts in my spare time for under $1k material for sure. So I have a hard time convincing myself shell out $15k for that. Railing is a separate cost.
Custom made interior doors: I said at the start of my thread on doors that a quote I was given for custom made doors was $700 for the slab plus $150 for the jambs (maple, stain grade). At 31 doors it comes to around $25k. My cost has been under $5k for the slabs and jambs and glasses (plus a lot of my own work).
Custom made entry door (which I built myself): I was quoted $25-30k depending on the style I wanted. Again, my cost has been under $4k including glass and hardware using a better built door I think (double floating panels, stave core, 2.25" thick). Then there are cabinets, I will start that project in a month or two. It's a big cabinet work (116 doors/drawer fronts). I have wised up and decided to get the doors made and only do the boxes plus some custom work (hood, posts, etc). I will post that in a separate thread.
The cost of flooring (pre-finished Santos Mahogany) is $9/sqf here ($40k in hardwood flooring for the whole house).
I appreciate all the comments/suggestions I get from the pros on this forum.

[keith micinski]

I'm the opposite. I would rather have the boxes made and do the doors myself. Don't know why but I get no enjoyment out of making a cabinet box but do get a lot of enjoyment out of face frames and doors. You are going to have a lot of yourself into this house when it is done and will probably enjoy that for a very long time.

[mreza Salav]

Keith, I wanted to do the cabinet doors as well but I simply won't have time I think. I have way too much on my plate (even though I had bought the tooling for doing this task). I have built enough cabinet doors that I think I can do it properly but time is of essence here.

Mark, I am not trying to cut corners or get things done cheaply, I want the highest quality (just because I'm doing things myself doesn't mean it is to do it "cheaply"). I have always wanted to build a house myself and I think this is a perfect opportunity to learn a thing or two and try new things.
Worst case, I hire a pro to fix up any boo boo I make. So far I don't think that is needed...

[Mark Bolton]

Keith, I wanted to do the cabinet doors as well but I simply won't have time I think. I have way too much on my plate (even though I had bought the tooling for doing this task). I have built enough cabinet doors that I think I can do it properly but time is of essence here.

Mark, I am not trying to cut corners or get things done cheaply, I want the highest quality (just because I'm doing things myself doesn't mean it is to do it "cheaply"). I have always wanted to build a house myself and I think this is a perfect opportunity to learn a thing or two and try new things.
Worst case, I hire a pro to fix up any boo boo I make. So far I don't think that is needed...

Never in any way thought you were cutting corners or going cheap. ;)

[Sandra Mart]

As some of you remember, I am making 31 interior doors for a new house we are building. I have built two batches already (5+12). This is the final batch of 14 doors including 3 French doors. Previous ones:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?205854-Building-a-few-interior-doors&highlight=
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?210969-Second-batch-of-doors&highlight=

All the previous ones were 32" but these last ones are of various sizes from 24" to 32"; they are made the same way as before (1/2" dowels with glued in panel). For the French doors I am doing traditional M/T joinery:

282368

Here is a dry fit of one of them:

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and here is the glue-up:

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and here are all the doors glued up and gone through the drum sander:

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And another french door with the moulding placed on top to see how it looks:

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All are beveled glass (the clear and the privacy ones).
It remains to hand sand them (ROS), cut to size and apply the mouldings, then I can move on to the next project for the house.
nice job
http://watchfree.me/11/w.png

[mreza Salav]

UPDATE

We are getting to the finishing stage of the house. Started pulling out the doors from their storage location do drill the knob/lock holes and hinge mortises. Here are some of the tools used: a router setup with 1/16" round over to ease the edges, another one to do the hinge mortises with 5/8" radius, another one to do the lock plate mortises, and hole saws.


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Template to do the lock plate mortises, another one to drill the holes precisely after doing the mortise for the lock plate as well as some ball catch for double door closets.

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Plus one more template for door hinges.

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[mreza Salav]

I setup my drill press next to the bench to do the lock set holes.

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Today I managed to do 7 doors. Hopefully I'll do the rest in the next few days. I have also made the jambs earlier, soon should be able to move everything to the new house.

292991292990

[Peter Quinn]

Looks great, I'm loving that drill press set up. We built a three leg bench at the last shop that slips over the DP table and essentially does the same thing, it's amazing how much easier it is to pull that handle and get perfectly square lock holes than to push a hole saw in a jig through 40 hard wood doors! Bravo, can't wait to see them swinging in their openings.

[Justin Ludwig]

Have you weighed any of the doors? I'm curious how heavy a 3-0 in solid stock would be. I work with 3/4 thick maple all the time and it isn't light.

Lookin good!

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Peter for all the advice so far. The DP setup takes time but works great. This particular holesaw bit is very hard on the DP as well. Things has happened to the DP that I had never had any issues (chuck come loose, the quill assembly come loose from the top, etc). It is very aggressive and one has to go very very lightly. But works great. I put a sacrificial board under and clamp the door, so I don't get blow out from the other as I drill all the way.

Justin, the doors weigh about 90lb each.

[Tom M King]

The house is a larger than normal indeed (4500+sqf) and I am building it myself for ourselves. I do want to do it better than normal (R32 walls with spray foam while normal is R21, better insulation in the ceiling, better exterior work, better interior work, etc). I am also doing a lot of work myself for three main reasons: one I think I can get a better result than many trades I can hire *here*, two: the cost would be significantly different, and three: I like to challenge myself.
For instance, a good stairs/railing company who quoted me for the railings wants $15k+tax for 7 (yes seven) box newel posts that look fancy (this is the same company who did that house I posted pictures of earlier). Now, I can certainly build that same quality posts in my spare time for under $1k material for sure. So I have a hard time convincing myself shell out $15k for that. Railing is a separate cost.
Custom made interior doors: I said at the start of my thread on doors that a quote I was given for custom made doors was $700 for the slab plus $150 for the jambs (maple, stain grade). At 31 doors it comes to around $25k. My cost has been under $5k for the slabs and jambs and glasses (plus a lot of my own work).
Custom made entry door (which I built myself): I was quoted $25-30k depending on the style I wanted. Again, my cost has been under $4k including glass and hardware using a better built door I think (double floating panels, stave core, 2.25" thick). Then there are cabinets, I will start that project in a month or two. It's a big cabinet work (116 doors/drawer fronts). I have wised up and decided to get the doors made and only do the boxes plus some custom work (hood, posts, etc). I will post that in a separate thread.
The cost of flooring (pre-finished Santos Mahogany) is $9/sqf here ($40k in hardwood flooring for the whole house).
I appreciate all the comments/suggestions I get from the pros on this forum.

This is kind of my reasoning for starting building houses for a living in 1973. It was a recession then, I was just out of school, and no good jobs to be had. I decided to build a house to see if I could sell it and make any money. I ended up doing that for 30 some years. After that first one, I never worried about what it cost to build something. I found out what it cost to build something by building it, and could always sell a house for more than double what I had in it, by me doing all the work. I'd start in the fall, have it closed in to finish the inside in Winter, dress up the outside in the Spring, sell it, and play on the lake in Summer. In 2006, I decided all the other builders had gotten smarter than me, so I started just working on old houses. HistoricHousePreservation.com

I think you did great by doing this work yourself.

[mreza Salav]

The last two days I was busy packing up the doors (passage doors and the entry door) and taking them to the new house more than a year after I started building them. I had to make two trips to take them (along with a work bench for myself to be setup in the new house). The pics should be clear. We have hung a few doors so far and everything lines up good so far. My finish carpenter (which I think does an excellent job) was very impressed with them. I made a small (1/16" deep, 3/16" away from the edge of the jamb) rebate so that the when you install the casing there is no visible gap between the jamb and casing. He loved this idea.

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[Bruce Page]

Looks great! I hope you're planning on giving us a home tour when you are finished.

[mreza Salav]

I will. I have to start building some arches and install those columns I built.
I am going to build a sander for sanding all those trims (baseboard, casing, crown, 5000+lf of them) as I don't have enough crew to hand sand them.
I hope it works or else I'd need an army to sand them for me...

[Rick Fisher]

Awesome work Mreza .. Love the pictures.. I have thought about doing the same thing in VG Fir..