Cutting the rabbet or groove for sliding deadman

[Marko Milisavljevic]

Help, I am ready to give up and buy a powered router! Cutting a .75" x 1.5" x 3' double blind rabbet in front of my laminated workbench bench top (or groove if I choose to do it post glue-up) in hard maple seems very painful by hand. The only specialized planes I have are LV router and medium shoulder. Would you:

- suffer with router plane
- buy a powered router
- buy a rabbet plane and use it with router plane
- scrap this idea and instead of using 8/4 stock, laminate two 3/4" pieces, with one having the rabbet sawed out.
- something else

Thanks!

[Steve Voigt]

I laminated my workbench top from pieces of SYP that finished at around 1 5/16. For the deadman slot, I simply cut a 4' x 1.25" section out of the appropriate piece, pre glue-up. When I made the deadman, I bolted on two external cleats at the back, which were the same thickness as my laminations, minus a bit for clearance. I got the idea for the cleats from this post by Jameel. (http://oudluthier.blogspot.com/2009/09/roubo-bench-one-year-later.html) Scroll to the bottom of the post.
The cut is easy to do with a coping saw at the ends and a rip saw for the bulk of the cut. Doesn't need to be pretty, either; the sides of the slot will be provided by the adjacent laminations, and the top of the slot is just clearance.

Another alternative, if you want to stick with your 3/4 slot: do you have a drill press? You could set the depth stop and waste out most of the wood with a forstner bit, then clean up with a chisel.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

My laminations are about 1.75 each, and second one has square dogs (I'm working from Benchcrafted plans), so if I cut this in 3rd strip, it will be a pretty wide groove and seems too inelegant. If I went with that type of approach, I think I'd rather rip the front lamination, saw out the eventual groove, and glue it back up.

I just find it hard to escape the idea that powered router is just the perfect tool and I'm just being stubborn by insisting it is done by hand.

[Chris Griggs]

Sticking with what you a have, I would either

A) cut it as a groove after its glued up using the router plane. Grooves are pretty easy to cut with a router plane...rabbet I find harder with one.

B) Just use the shoulder plane as an unfenced rabbet plane. Mark the shoulder and depth line of the rabbet. Then using your fingers as a fence, tip the edge of the shoulder plane into the scribed shoulder line until a wall is established, it will want to follow the scribe line....then open up the mouth deepen the cut and go to town until you hit you baseline. If you are having trouble establishing the initial wall you can notch the scribe line out for with a chisel to help guide the shoulder plane until the rabbet shoulder is established.

C) I wouldn't buy a power router for this one task...but it you have one or can borrow one, might be a good time to put it too use.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'll have to see if I can find some photos, but I made the tongue on my deadman with some 1/4" steel slotted into the deadman and attached with screws. It made the slot easier for me to cut with the tooling I had, since it didn't need to be so thick. Most of the removal I did with a mortise chisel.

Do you have access to a drill press? Perhaps you could rig up a way to get the bench top under a drill press with the table swung out of the way, (moving the drill press around the work, rather than work around the press, as it were) and register the drill press off the edge of the table, somehow, and use that to remove the bulk of the waste, and then clean it up with the router plane?

[Warren Mickley]

When I was in your situation many years ago, I made a simple plough plane. It didn't take a whole afternoon; it may not have had a fence. The deadman still slides nicely after three and a half decades. My groove is 3/8 wide, 1/8 deep.

It is painful to read that you have bought a shoulder plane and a router plane, but lack rabbet, fillister and plough. Of the "Eight essential handplanes", you managed to buy ones that are not needed. I bought a router plane when I started getting large carving jobs, but I have never used a shoulder plane or an electric router.

[lowell holmes]

I'd use it as an excuse to purchase the Lee Valley plow plane. You could plow parallel grooves sizing the 3/4" width and clean up the island left between the grooves. 1 1/2" in depth is pretty severe though.

[glenn bradley]

I have seen versions where the deadman has the 'slot' and the rail has a raised track. This seems logical to me as a slot on the rail would catch spoil and foul the movement(?). I know, spoken like a true non-Neander ;-)

[Paul Saffold]

Skip the groove! A different alternative is to put the groove in the top of the deadman, then put a tongue under the bench. It could be a simple rabbet on a board to leave a "L" shape. Or use a piece of angle iron. Certainly not traditional but simple.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?183190-My-split-top-finished

Paul

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Marko

My sliding deadman has a rebate at the upper end that runs in a groove under the benchtop, while the lower end has a V-groove than runs along a mating V-strip ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/IDeclareThisBenchFinished_html_m7090ef1e.jpg

There is a good reason for this design. Importantly, it does not collect dust and debris.

The groove under the benchtop may be made with deeply knifed lines, followed by the use of a router plane. This is a very useful tool, and ploughing in a confined area is just one of the many tasks it performs. Since you are ploughing with the grain, and the groove does not need to be deep (1/2" is sufficient), this should be a straight forward task. Use the router plane with the fence to increase control.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Noah Wagener]

Warren, can you list the other five?

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, can you list the other five?

Lists of essential planes often include router planes and shoulder planes, which I would not include. Here is my list.

1. Jack plane. a plane for rough work with convex iron. I prefer 16 inch beech.

2. Trying plane. Bailey 6 or 7 or 22 inch beech

3. Smoothing plane

4. Plough

5. Rabbet

6. Moving fillister Stanley 78 or wooden fenced rabbet

7. Dado. A single narrow Dado plane can be used to cut dados of various widths. not essential but handy.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

When I was in your situation many years ago, I made a simple plough plane. It didn't take a whole afternoon; it may not have had a fence. The deadman still slides nicely after three and a half decades. My groove is 3/8 wide, 1/8 deep.

It is painful to read that you have bought a shoulder plane and a router plane, but lack rabbet, fillister and plough. Of the "Eight essential handplanes", you managed to buy ones that are not needed. I bought a router plane when I started getting large carving jobs, but I have never used a shoulder plane or an electric router.

Dear Warren,

I regret to have caused you pain, but the blame for this lays squarely on your shoulders (and I'm not taking about using a shoulder plane to trim shoulders square). Did you call me when I was setting up my shop to give me suitable advice? No? Well then.

As for making a plow plane in one afternoon, lets not go there, as I would still be struggling to plane the stock square at dinner time.

On a serious note, how do you get deadman on and off the bench if the groove is only 1/8" deep?

[Marko Milisavljevic]

Skip the groove! A different alternative is to put the groove in the top of the deadman, then put a tongue under the bench. It could be a simple rabbet on a board to leave a "L" shape. Or use a piece of angle iron. Certainly not traditional but simple.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?183190-My-split-top-finished

Paul

Thank you for the suggestion. It is not complicated enough and doesn't involve purchase of new tools, thus I cannot accept it.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

The groove under the benchtop may be made with deeply knifed lines, followed by the use of a router plane. This is a very useful tool, and ploughing in a confined area is just one of the many tasks it performs. Since you are ploughing with the grain, and the groove does not need to be deep (1/2" is sufficient), this should be a straight forward task. Use the router plane with the fence to increase control.

Thanks Derek. With groove that shallow, I assume the plan is to remove bottom track if you want to remove the deadman?

[Warren Mickley]

I think the painful thing is that many people with electric routers, table saws, and other such capabilities are recommending router planes ahead of ploughs for hand tool shops. There are just lots more needs for a plough in traditional construction.

My deadman was put in place when the bench was made and is captured by the two grooves. Alternatively one could make a deeper groove than necessary at the top so the deadman can be lifted high enough for the tongue to slip out of its groove at the bottom. About five minutes ago I had my deadman out of its grooves for the first time since I made the bench 35 years ago. I deflected the lower rail with a crow bar and had the deadman out and back in again in about three seconds.

[Darren Brewster]

I've gotten a lot more use out of my plow than my router plane too, though you would have to pry my router plane from my cold, dead hands.

[Brian Holcombe]

I use a shoulder plane regularly, but not for this type of thing. They do a pretty nice job of trimming existing stuff, but not a great job of cutting new grooves.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello Marko,

Here's an approach, though maple would be a whole 'nother ball game. Having just done this, I'd consider a similar approach, but would auger out most of the waste first if I really wanted to go hand-tool only. I used a tailed router...

http://giantcypress.net/post/53833429858/building-a-roubo-workbench-rerun-20

Good luck!
C

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Derek. With groove that shallow, I assume the plan is to remove bottom track if you want to remove the deadman?

Hi Marko

It needs to be clarified whether the benchtop is attached to the legs or not. My recommendation for a router plane has assumed that the legs and top are attached, and that the groove under the benchtop has to be made in a restricted space. In such circumstances the router plane is a boon.

In my own case, the groove was ploughed with a plough plane before the legs were attached. It is simply not possible to use a traditional plough plane effectively - that is, maintaining an even depth - if you do not have the space to start and follow through the cut.

Regarding the lower V-section, whether you groove first or last, I believe that it is easy to make it removable, which is what I did ....

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/DodgedaBullet_html_m1634618c.jpg


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/DodgedaBullet_html_m31372b4d.jpg

In short, plough plane if you have space and router plane if not.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Winton Applegate]

Would you:
- Something else

[Noah Wagener]

Lists of essential planes often include router planes and shoulder planes, which I would not include. Here is my list.

1. Jack plane. a plane for rough work with convex iron. I prefer 16 inch beech.

2. Trying plane. Bailey 6 or 7 or 22 inch beech

3. Smoothing plane

4. Plough

5. Rabbet

6. Moving fillister Stanley 78 or wooden fenced rabbet

7. Dado. A single narrow Dado plane can be used to cut dados of various widths. not essential but handy.


Thanks Warren. You list these as the "essential". Just considering bench planes, do you go outside this list in your daily use? Would you use something longer than a try? Do you use different pitches? If so. just for smoothers?

Is a dado simply an unfenced plough? And could you differentiate between a plough and a fillister? I recently bought a plane labeled as both; as a "sash filister plough" plane. I thought the inclusion of the word sash would mean it cuts the ovolo and the glazing rabbett but now that i look at the pics it looks like it cuts a quarter inch dado.

282475


Marko, maybe get one of these:

282476
282477

Anyone ever used one?

[Warren Mickley]

Thanks Warren. You list these as the "essential". Just considering bench planes, do you go outside this list in your daily use? Would you use something longer than a try? Do you use different pitches? If so. just for smoothers?

Is a dado simply an unfenced plough? And could you differentiate between a plough and a fillister?


I listed jack, trying and smoothing as essential. I have
1. 16 inch wooden jack 43 degrees
2. 22 inch wooden trying 43 degrees for face planing.
3. #3 smoothing 45 degrees

In addition, I use
4. #4 smoothing 42 degrees for end grain
5, #7 45 degrees for jointing

Some definitions:
A Rabbet plane has the blade as wide as the sole.

A Fillister is a fenced rabbet plane. It can be a common fillister (fixed fence) or a moving fillister (movable fence) A moving fillister usually also has a spur to score the wood ahead of the cutter for making a rabbet cross grain

A Plough makes grooves (with the grain). It can be a fixed plough (one cutter, fixed fence, fixed depth) or a universal plough (multiple cutters, adjustable fence, adjustable depth stop).

A Dado plane makes cross grain grooves. It has two spurs ahead of the cutter to score the grain on each edge of the dado.

[Chris Griggs]

I listed jack, trying and smoothing as essential. I have
1. 16 inch wooden jack 43 degrees
2. 22 inch wooden trying 43 degrees for face planing.
3. #3 smoothing 45 degrees

In addition, I use
4. #4 smoothing 42 degrees for end grain
5, #7 45 degrees for jointing


Pure curiosity here Warren. But where did you get those odd angle planes. The woodies of course you could make, modify or find in the wild at a variety of angles, but where did you get a No. 4 at 42 degrees? Did you alter in some way? If so how?

[Steve Voigt]

Pure curiosity here Warren. But where did you get those odd angle planes. The woodies of course you could make, modify or find in the wild at a variety of angles, but where did you get a No. 4 at 42 degrees? Did you alter in some way? If so how?

And another question…are your two 43° woodies double iron planes? I'm assuming yes, but just want to clarify. Thanks!

[Warren Mickley]

Pure curiosity here Warren. But where did you get those odd angle planes. The woodies of course you could make, modify or find in the wild at a variety of angles, but where did you get a No. 4 at 42 degrees? Did you alter in some way? If so how?

I made the jack plane in 1978. The trying plane I bought in 1979. I thought it was bedded at 45, but in fact the bed is slightly lower and with the tapered iron it has a cutting angle of 43. I must have altered the #4 plane sometime in the early 1980's, but I do not remember doing it. It was kind of a surprise to measure it and find 42. It looks like I altered where the frog is attached to the sole, maybe the bed also. All double iron planes.

I think the 45 degree bed on the Bailey planes is designed to give clearance for those who are a little sloppy with their honing. I have certainly seen videos of guys honing at 35 and above.

[Chris Griggs]

I made the jack plane in 1978. The trying plane I bought in 1979. I thought it was bedded at 45, but in fact the bed is slightly lower and with the tapered iron it has a cutting angle of 43. I must have altered the #4 plane sometime in the early 1980's, but I do not remember doing it. It was kind of a surprise to measure it and find 42. It looks like I altered where the frog is attached to the sole, maybe the bed also. All double iron planes.

I think the 45 degree bed on the Bailey planes is designed to give clearance for those who are a little sloppy with their honing. I have certainly seen videos of guys honing at 35 and above.

Interesting. Thanks!

[Jim Matthews]

Skip the groove! A different alternative is to put the groove in the top of the deadman, then put a tongue under the bench. It could be a simple rabbet on a board to leave a "L" shape. Or use a piece of angle iron. Certainly not traditional but simple.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?183190-My-split-top-finished

Paul

That's the way I did it.

I used an inline skate wheel at the bottom, rolling on a piece of handrail.

The top "slot" housing the deadman's "tongue" is formed of two parallel pieces
of poplar (milled so square as I can manage) applied with brads and double sided tape.

It's a tool, not a puzzle box. Complicate the mechanism at your own peril.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5tc4cYYkYw

[Derek Cohen]

Skip the groove! A different alternative is to put the groove in the top of the deadman, then put a tongue under the bench. It could be a simple rabbet on a board to leave a "L" shape. Or use a piece of angle iron. Certainly not traditional but simple.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...t-top-finished

Paul




And when the groove fills with dust or shavings ... ? :(




Regards from Perth




Derek

[Paul Saffold]

Derek,
Not possible to fill with shavings or saw dust. 1-It is below a solid portion of the bench, 2- the angle iron is in the groove. :)

The other groove you see is to allow the deadman to pass by dogs, and the dogs will wipe the dust/shavings out.

Paul

[Marko Milisavljevic]

Appreciate all the good suggestions. In the end, I decided to stick with original plans and make a double-stopped rabbet on the front lamination strip (before lamination). I used router plane and made a custom fence that would serve both as a fence and keep the plane level. At 1.5" wide, I had to take about 4 strokes at each depth with 1/2" blade. To keep it comfortable, I was going with about 0.015" shavings, so had to change depth about 50 times. It went quickly enough and there were no surprises. Chopped ends with chisel, rather than trying to use router plane against grain. Cleaned up side with shoulder plane. Came out perfect.

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