2 quick questions from a new guy...

[David Coburn]

Hello again...

I hope it is not inappropriate for me to post this second thread while that other thread is still pretty new.... If it is just let me know the etiquette and I'll try to adhere..

Two questions:

1) I either face plate or worm screw mount my blanks initially. I turn the bottoms and make either a tennon or a recess for the chuck to grab the piece when I flip it... I am consistently not getting a flat base around the tennon or in the recess such that when I remount with my Super Nova 2 I get a lot of wobble. I've been trying to use my 1/8" parting tool to cut the tennon or develop the recess. It does not give me the flat base that I need in order to get a good "square" fit with my chuck... Is this a common problem and how do you guys develop the tennons and recesses for the chuck such that when you remount you have either no or very little wobble?

2) I found and downloaded a 1 page pdf called "Turners Reference Guide" from Woodline USA. It has a table that talks about the various tools and where they are used :
Spindle Tools - spindle gouge, roughing gouge, skews, parting tools
Bowl Tools - bowl gouge, bowl scraper
Dedicated hollowing tools -

It also has a bunch of one liners around the table like "Rub the bevel on all cutting tools, not on scraping tools", "Learn to turn right and left handed", "Speed formula: diameter in inches X speed in RPM's should equal 6,000 to 9,000 (10" x 800 RPM = 8,000)"....

In the table under the Spindle Tools in the Roughing Gouge area they have a comment stating the following: "NEVER used on bowl blanks. Serious injuries have occurred. Use for SPINDLES ONLY!!"

The question is "is the above comment about roughing gouges not being used on bowl blanks right?" I thought the main use of a roughing gouge was to get the bowl blank round...


thanks again,
david

[Jamie Donaldson]

A SPINDLE ROUGHING GOUGE should never be used for bowl turning! NEVER! You don't ever need a SPINDLE roughing gouge if you learn to use a bowl gouge instead. I suspect your trouble with tenons for your chuck mounting are caused by the tenon being too long, and touching the bottom of the chuck jaws. Always leave at least 1/8" of space above the bottom of the jaws, I'm not a fan of using a chuck in expansion mode into a recess for mounting bowls.

[Tom Sherman]

As for mounting your blanks in your chuck, Check the Jaws on your chuck I believe you will find that they have a beveled edge. If so you need to make your tenon beveled also. Another point to make is you want to get as much of the jaws in contactd with your tenon as possible. Close the jaws completely then back them off till there is about 1/8 of an inch between the the jaws. Measure the "INSIDE" make your tenon this size with the bevel on it and do not make your tenon longer than 1/4 to 1/2" long, you want the outside edge of the jaw to seat against the bottom of your blank.

About the Roughing Gouge it should not be used in turning bowls period. It does not have the strength and was designed to be used on spindles. Take a close look at it where the tool goes into the handle, then look at one of your bowl gouges in the same manner, you will see a big difference in how much material is in the handle. In most cases there is only about a couple of inches in the handle a big difference in a half inch bar, and a 3/16 or 1/4 inch piece of flat stock. Hope this helps.

[Robert Henrickson]

In the table under the Spindle Tools in the Roughing Gouge area they have a comment stating the following: "NEVER used on bowl blanks. Serious injuries have occurred. Use for SPINDLES ONLY!!"
The question is "is the above comment about roughing gouges not being used on bowl blanks right?" I thought the main use of a roughing gouge was to get the bowl blank round...

It is absolutely correct that a roughing gouge should not be used on a bowl blank. Remember -- you note that the "Roughing Gouge" was listed under "SPINDLE TOOLS" -- that is for a reason. Both turners and vendors now tend to refer to that tool as a "spindle roughing gouge" to emphasize that it is to be used only in spindle work. On spindles it can be very effective, but its strength is not adequate for safety on bowl blanks of any sort, especially irregular. Consider how wide the flute of a roughing gouge is compared to the tang where it is connected to the handle, then compare that to standard spindle (or bowl) gouges, where the flute width is less than the width of the shaft. That alone should tell you a spindle roughing gouge and a bowl blank are a bad combination. The sharp corners of the roughing gouge flute increase the potential danger -- compare the more rounded edges of regular spindle gouges.

[Brian Kent]

Good morning David.
The Super Nova 2 chuck has jaws that are dovetailed - not straight. The base of the tenon has to be smaller than the rim of the tenon, or the inside if the recess has to be wider than the mouth of the recess, so that these jaws can grip. Someone will be able to link to cutaway pictures that show the angle.
The roughing gouge is just for spindles, not bowls. The physics problems are that 1) the roughing gouge presents a wide edge to the wood, which is too much for the gouge to handle when the end grain presents itself twice on each rotation. A bowl gouge will take off a much smaller piece of the end gin each time it comes around. And 2) the tang on the the roughing gouge is much narrower than the cutting edge, so those strong forces can snap off the gouge where it meets the handle. I have experienced the 1st problem but thankfully only heard about the second. A bowl gouge has more steel where it meets the handle, with a tip that is smaller than where it meets the handle. Far safer.

Now keep reading other responses to see where someone can say this better than I just did :)

[charlie knighton]

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you tube is your friend also, but hands on mounting blanks, use of tools , dust protection is something clubs excel at, plus you will get many new friends

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Welcome!

I'll drop in my $0.02. I always start bowls between centers. The main reason is that you can adjust the blank as you rough it out to center the heartwood ans sapwood, or get rid of a knot or defect. If you start with a screw or faceplate, you are obviously stuck with that orientation of the bowl.

In case you are not doing it, even with a chuck, faceplate or wood screw, use your tail stock as long as you can, especially when roughing. Just one more blanket of security.

Your tenon should be shorter than the depth of your jaws. In other words, the blank "shoulders" should sit on the face of your jaws, vice the tenon base sitting at the bottom of the chuck jaws. The only good use of a skew, is to make that base square to the tenon. You can use the parting tool, but I prefer the skew. BTW, I did that for the longest time, make the tenon sit on the base of the chuck. But, don't ask me that. I'll deny it.

[David Coburn]

ok so now I'm a bit worried.... The only tools I have are the set from Harbor Freight (and a scraper that takes various bits)... After looking at the some other threads I'm starting to think that I don't really have a "bowl" gouge at all.... All the gouges in my set have basically flat faces and wide flutes... I think they're 1", 3/4", and maybe 1/4"... I've reground the smallest one to have more of a fingernail footprint but I'm a bit concerned now that I don't really have a bowl gouge

Can someone help me understand what gouges actually come in the standard HF tool set (that everyone on here seems to have owned at some point and time)... and if I need to actually buy a separate bowl gouge or can I just regrind one of the larger ones (3/4" one to be specific) to have a fingernail form factor like I did with the smallest one?

thanks,
david

[Brian Kent]

I also started with the Harbor Freight tool set, and no there is no bowl gouge. Nothing that can be re-purposed for that either. I got a 1/2" V bowl gouge from Thompsonlathetools ($60). I should get several more from PennStateIndustries today (These: http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LX298.html?prodpage=1LX) so I can comment later on these cheaper tools. They are 3 for $54. I am buying them to experiment and then will continue with Thompson tools.

[David Coburn]

Well... never let it be said that I'm slow to act... I am now the proud owner of a $24.99 Benjamins' Best 1/2" bowl gouge... I'll give this one a spin for a while and see where it leads.. Yes, this turning was a horrid mistake... I hope my children can deal with going to barber school as opposed to college... course a good barber can always get a job and makes good money, so maybe this is really a good thing..

david

[Robert Henrickson]

Can someone help me understand what gouges actually come in the standard HF tool set (that everyone on here seems to have owned at some point and time)... and if I need to actually buy a separate bowl gouge or can I just regrind one of the larger ones (3/4" one to be specific) to have a fingernail form factor like I did with the smallest one?

HF doesn't seem to be aware of bowl gouges. I don't think they make them. What you have are spindle gouges. They cannot be converted to bowl gouges, for reasons of safety if no other. 3/4" would be a VERY aggressive bowl gouge. Relatively few manufacturers even market a bowl gouge that size. Your 3/4" spindle gouge would not be strong enough to be safe as a bowl gouge. A proper 3/4" bowl gouge would have a shaft which was a solid cylinder at least 3/4" in diameter at the handle -- a massive piece of metal. I have one, and have used it only a few times in 6 years (I got a name-brand one at a vastly reduced price when WC discontinued them). It's too big for almost anything I do -- even 16" bowls. I've made at least several hundred bowls, up to 16" in diameter. I've primarily used a 3/8" bowl gouge (3/8" flute, 1/2" shaft) and less often, usually for large bowls, a 1/2" bowl gouge (1/2" flute, 5/8" shaft).

Get a proper bowl gouge. Penn State might be a cheap starting point, but you'd be better off with better quality. You need to talk to some turners face-to-face -- find a local club and go to a meeting. You should be able to find people who can be mentors and give you good tool and sharpening advice.

[EDIT -- you posted your purchase as I was writing this post. The BB bowl gouge is a reasonable starting point, and having a true bowl gouge is an essential first step.]

[David Coburn]

Brian and Robert...

thank you both... If this keeps up my shop fund is going to be in need of a bailout!!

So from watching some videos it seems that at least one correct starting process is to mount your somewhat round blank, pull the tail stock up and use the live center, cut the tenon (with bowl gouge and square it up with skew or parting tool), then work from the base (outside the tenon) up and around the sides to get it to true round (all with the bowl gouge), then do the actual shaping that you might want (again with the bowl gouge)..... Does this description sound right to you guys?

If it is, then I sure wasn't doing it that way before....

thanks,
david

[Phil Harris]

Hi David

You are absolutly right about the shoulder where it meets the chuck's jaws must be flat. You can check the shoulder with a straight edge just above the tenon, to be sure. If you are not using your chuck with the woodworm screw to hold the bowl blank, then you can do a test fitting, it must not touch the bottem, it must be flat against the shoulder, and the shape of the tenon must conform to the shape of the jaws. you mentioned something about wobble and that is 0% tolerance!!! Like Kyle mentioned earlier I use a skew as a scraper to make sure the shoulder is flat for a tenon and also inside the recess where the jaws meet, also to refine the shape of the tenon to match the shape of the jaws.

Brian, it is a common misconception that all Nova jaws use a dovetail shape on all of thier jaws, actually most of them are dovetails inside and outside. However the most commenly used jaws are the standard 50mm jaws and they are not dovetailed, they are straight with a lip. They will work with a slight dovetail but this not the ideal shape! "Remember when all else fails read the instructions." This is true for the G3 as well as the super Nove 2, even my old tommy bar type nova is
straight with a lip on the 50mm jaws.

From the instuction pamphlet that comes with the Nova chucks (not the Titon). "Make the spigot as parallel as possible to maximise the efficiency of the clamping action. ...... The 50mm(2 inches) standard jaw has a thin lip (or shoulder at the front face) which is designed to bite into the timber as the jaws are
tightened. DO NOT CUT A RECESS FOR THE LIP TO FIT INTO AS THIS WILL REDUCE GRIPPING POWER." The folks from the bottem of the earth use the word spigot for tenon and timber for wood.

David, one of the best things you can do for yourself is to find and join a local woodturning club, spend some time with their mentors, you will save a lot of time and money by learning how to avoid the mistakes most of us have already made!

Good luck and keep on turnin!

Phil Harris

[Sonny Kemp]

Youre on the right track now David.You probably be better to square your tenon up with your bowl gouge and parting tool for now until you get more familiar with the skew.They are pretty picky about angles they like to cut at,and will catch real easy if not presented at the right angle to the wood.Parting tool will work fine and be a lot safer for now.

[David Coburn]

Ok, so I'm back at the shop now and have discovered a thing or two... The wobbly action when mounted in the chuck was, as I thought, the bottom of the bowl right next to the tenon was not flat enough... I was going way too slow and chewing up the wood rather than scraping it (with my parting tool)... I remounted to the faceplate, sped it up, resurfaced the bottom next to the tenon and remounted I the chuck... no wobble... Also, cutting with the gouge is way different from what I had been doing and it really seems like "cutting" now... and I understand what they mean by ride the bevel... You actually kinda slide the bevel along the face of what your cutting and just tilt up a little to put the edge to the wood.... Previously I was only pulling the tool out from the center... now once I get the position of the edge against the wood right it seems pretty natural both pulling and pushing down the side or across the bottom toward the center...

oh well, back to it...

thanks again...
david

[robert baccus]

Congratulations David--you got it by the tail--also notice the vortex spinning around the room. Good correction Phil--very important. PS If you ever get bored buy a 65$ set of BB tools and grind experimental shapes or specialty shapes Like an expanding dovetail cutter or bottom feeder.

[Reed Gray]

Well, probably time to bring this video clip up again, Robbo is one of the Aussie turners, and has a number of good clips up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhHeyoZLaY

I have a couple up as well if you type in robo hippy.

robo hippy

[David Coburn]

Ouch!! Well, I can say I won't be using a spindle roughing gouge on bowl work again...

david

[Thom Sturgill]

I'll throw my $.02 in too. I pretty much agree with Kyle, but with a twist. Start between centers and true the tailstock face. Then cut a mortice that your biggest jaws will just fit when closed. Mount the piece and reverse. Now cut the tenon or mortice for the foot and shape the outside of the bowl. Cutting dead flat is nearly impossible so undercut just slightly so that the jaws meet the wood at their outside edge. Use a straight edge and make sure they do not rock. Once mounted in the chuck, check the fit with a piece of paper - you should not be able to get a piece of paper between any jaw and the wood - if you can then re-cut and try again.

Glad you got a true bowl gouge - it will make life much simpler. You will probably want AT LEAST two - one with a fingernail/irish grind and one with a straight/conventional grind (bottom feeder). Most people have problems using the fingernail in the 'transition' area between the sides and the bottom and need the steeper face.

If you notice hard to sand out ridges, especially in the lower area, these can be caused by the heel of the gouge burnishing the wood. Many turners just grind back the heel leaving as little as 1/16" to 1/8" of bevel.