Waffle between the EZguide and Festool

[Ed Blough]

Hi all
I'm convinced the guided saw system is exactly what I need. I'm also convinced about the MFT and it's usefulness. This will completely fill the gaps in what I now have. However! I'm killing myself waffling between the Ezguide and Festool.
Jerry's manual on the MFT had me convinced to go Festool. But I reread it and noticed that for the most past everything Jerry did on MFT concerned the ability to put clamps where there needed and/or self made jigs. I'm wondering if I couldn't accomplish the same thing with any table that had holes drilled in a pattern and guide system.

I know there is a cut guide with the MFT but I wonder if using a protractor and EZguide I could accomplish the same thing. Jerry's squaring jig could easily be incorporated into the design.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but this what I figure. To get the Festool package I want I would get a CT 22 vac, ATF 55 saw, MTF 1080 table, OF 1400 Router and FS 2700 guide rails plus some clamps and accessories, so I figure the cost near $1800.

The EZguide freedom package is $369 add $150 of a PC Mag 325 saw and $200 for a router and $300 for a Fein vac. I'll add another $200 for accessories and wood to build a table in place of the MFT. That gives me a total coming out around $1200.

That's a difference of around $600. Not deal stopping but I wonder if Festool option is worth it.

Now my question is the Festool MFT package something that can't be duplicated as easily as I think or not? Can I really build something like the Festool MFT using a similar design and the EZguide and come out with something that is a virtual replacement or will the result be something that will fall short of the Festool system?

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Ohh wow Ed, I hope you haven't opened a can of worms here :)

I am not familiar with the MFT. I can say that the EZ Package comes with the smart table. A table designed to support what you are cutting fully. It does this with replacable 1x lumber so you can cut through the "Table" without worry.

That said, one of the biggest advantages of Festool was not mentioned in your post. The Festools have supurb dust collection. Is it worth $600 for the dust collection? I don't know...

The reason that I bought the freedom package and not the Festool package is that I already had a saw and router. Since I already had those two the cost difference was MUCH MUCH higher.

Anyway, good luck with your decision.

Let's keep this topic civil please :) :) :)

[Ken Salisbury]

I will get in right away and comment:

Lets not get carried away with this. Please put your brain in gear before operating the clutch on your fingers. :D :)


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[Ray Bersch]

Please put your brain in gear before operating the clutch on your fingers. :D :)

Ken, my friend, its the fingers that do the talkin'. But nice catch!!
Ray

[Chris Barton]

I think the Festool equipment is clearly top-notch but, would I want to replicate a bunch of tools I already have just to have the "system?" I don't know for sure. I guess one would have to weight the cost/benefit ratio to make that call. On the other hand, I have been know to buy equipment simply because I liked it. Bottom line is, if you got the money and the "Jones" for the Festools, go for it. If you are short of cash and need the capability, make do...

[Ken Salisbury]

Ken, my friend, its the fingers that do the talkin'. But nice catch!!
Ray

:D ;) :) Good point - I fixed that :o

[Steven Wilson]

The individual Festool tools are really at the top the heap quality wise and are better than the individual tools you mention. I'm a big fan of their sanders and shop vac which I use all the time and am impressed with the other Festool tools I own (router, drills). Since I have a sliding tablesaw I really don't have a use for the ATF55 or MFT. I would suggest that you contact your local Festool representative and have him show you the tools you're considering in your shop and then you can decide if the cost is worth it for you

[Ed Blough]

I will get in right away and comment:

Lets not get carried away with this. Please put your brain in gear before operating the clutch on your fingers. :D :)




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Ken

I asked my question not to start a spitting contest but rather out of ignorance.

I have no experience with the MFT and was wondering if its capabilities would be the tie breaker for me in my decision between EZGuide and Festool.



I think I asked the question in such a way that the answer would be either "yes" you can by doing thus or "no" because there is really no good way to duplicate this or that feature of the MFT. I guess a two other answers could be "yes but" it would cost more than initial cost of the Festool line. Or "no" but you can do this or that and it is a better way.

Please everyone don’t get off track, I don’t want to be the guy that started a problem on SMC. Ken forgive me if I made waves.

[Paul Berendsohn]

Hi Ed...

I'm sure you are aware that I am hardly without bias in this arena :D But, I will also admit to having not used the Festool table. I do however have a SmartTable, and have used the Festool guide and saw. The only capacity the Festool has (that I am aware of ) which isn't present in the SmartGuide is the ability to cut bevels other than 45 without an offset. I have never found it a big enough deal (or a frequent enough occurance) to outweigh all the many advantages of the SmartGuide which have been enumerated by myself and others numerous times, most especially their superior rail construction and design. If you are by any chance, within driving distance of New Haven CT you (or anyone else here) is most welcome to stop by and take my SmartGuide setups for a spin.

(Oooops, just saw you are in Tampa... well, the offer's open :p )

[Scott Coffelt]

Tough question and one only you can make. FWIW, I have the ATF55, 150/3, OF1400 and I use a mini-Fein. Works just fine. I don't have the table yet, but know when/if I do it will all work together nice. Maybe I do not know what I am missing, but so far I have gotten along without it.

FWIW2, I have the EZ plate on my other CS that I use free hand, it does as discribed as well, clean splinter free cuts. Though it is now religated to 2x4's and deck building versus sheet goods these days.

To compare, I think we can call the tables even and the guide rails even for now, so please guys no silly debate/remarks here. (Less Filling, Taste Great) We'll also can say the vacs are close to equal, though the Festool does have a HEPA filter and the Fein doesn't (at least standard). So given this, the question becomes is the ATF55 a better saw than the PC... I'll say yes, is it worth 2 times as much.. to me yes, to others maybe not. Why I like it, the plunge stop feature, perfect alignment with rail regardless of tilt angle, the ability to adapt electronically to differnent materials, awesome dust collection, so is that worth it to you... you need to decide. Finally, the OF1400 is a great router, again is it better than others out there for more $'s, I don't know but I do prefer it's method for working with the rails and the urgonomics better than my other routers. As for other products, i.e., sanders - none better on the market...period, but those don't require a rail; jigsaw - duno, I have mixed feelings on it, but if you do need to fit to a rail... you can.

I am sure, EZ will continue to expand their line as well, so that debate will go on for years. What I do think is we have the two best in the market for rail systems, now it really comes down to whether you feel you need and/or will buy the other products to complete the system or not and if you feel you can find something else that meets your requirements. Price difference, again you need to figure individually and head to head and then decided if you can mix and match or one or the other and then is the price diff justified in your mind.

Good luck with whatever decision you make, I am sure it will be the best for you.

[Jim Becker]

Both systems are excellent and do what they say they will do. The primary difference is one is systematically designed around the specific tools from the same company and the other is designed to work with multiple/all brands of tools.

As to the MFT, it's becoming something I use more and more and more in my work. I was skeptical at first, but now I'm a believer.

[Dan Forman]

So far, the main question that Ed posed has not been addressed, regarding whether the EZ Smart table can be adapted to do all or most of the things that the MFT can do. Can anyone elaborate on that?

Dan

[Jeff Sudmeier]

I asked my question not to start a spitting contest but rather out of ignorance.

Please everyone don’t get off track, I don’t want to be the guy that started a problem on SMC. Ken forgive me if I made waves.



Ed,

Don't sweat it! You have definately posted a valid question. Just for some reason every time that a post comparing F to EZ is started, it seems to bring out a heated argument :) Everyone is doing great so far!

I too am interested to see if the Smart Table can be converted to have the features of the MFT. Some of the features would be really nice to have :)

[Ken Salisbury]

Ken

I asked my question not to start a spitting contest but rather out of ignorance.

Please everyone don’t get off track, I don’t want to be the guy that started a problem on SMC. Ken forgive me if I made waves.




Ed, There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with you starting this thread. Waves are something we deal with :D :D :D

I am sure you will get the answers you are looking for. I will take care of the "off track" issue - if it occurs. :)


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[Chris Padilla]

Festool's circular saw has the best dust collection period. That is the one thing that swayed me over to the F side of the force. Otherwise, I think Festool's guided saw system and EZ's guided saw system are highly complimentary of each other. I think you'll be happy either way to be honest.

[Dave Avery]

Ed,

I'll try to help. By matter of disclaimer, I have neither seen nor tried any EZ equipment. I have and use the ATF 55, CT-22, OF-1400, Rotex 6", and the large MFT.

Of all the items, the MFT is the coolest. I use it for more than I'd ever imagined. Assembly table, sanding station, cross-cutting large panels are the 3 most common operations. The ATF 55 with dust collection is excellent. The guide rails are good - based on what I've HEARD, EZ may have an advantage here. OF-1400 is excellent, though I still prefer my Makita RF1101 for hand-held work. The OF-1400 with the guide rails is very cool. LOVE the Rotex - sanding is actually fun.

In respect of your decision, it's hard to say what's important to someone else. I generally believe that you "get what you pay for" and the Festool system has made me happier than any of my other individual purchases. But I'm relatively more time-challenged and relatively less $ conscious.... you might be much different. Based on the feedback for both systems, it's hard to say that you could make a "wrong choice". More importantly, make a choice and then go build something with it (Mark Singer would be proud).

All the best. Dave.

[Tim Sproul]

Having the EZguide....the only thing I have been disappointed with is the loss in depth of cut.

If you get the Festool ATF65, you'll have nearly 2 1/2 inch depth of cut using the Festool guide. With either my PC or Makita 7 1/4 saws on the EZ guide, I can no longer cut a full 2 inches depth while using the tool guide.

This is more important if you plan on using with solid stock. I've never used sheet stock that thick.....

And don't forget the Systainer system with Festool if you need to move your tools from site to site.

[Ed Blough]

Ed,

Don't sweat it! You have definately posted a valid question. Just for some reason every time that a post comparing F to EZ is started, it seems to bring out a heated argument :) Everyone is doing great so far!

I too am interested to see if the Smart Table can be converted to have the features of the MFT. Some of the features would be really nice to have :)

Let me be a little clearer here. I'm not trying to convert the Smart table. What I'm wondering is if I can construct something similar to the Festool MFT using EZguide parts.
I know I can buy the table top and swivel unit, is it possible to cobble a Ezguide to them? Or is there something better to use. Or is this just not practical.

As I have said I'm convinced the guide system is the way I need to go and I think both Festool and EZguide have their advantages. After reading Jerry's manual on the MFT I see the MFT as the tie breaker unless I can somehow get something similar that would work using EZguide components. Then it would boil down to cost and like everyone has said that is the decision I have to make for myself.

[Jay Knoll]

Ed

Part of the question is what are you comparing, is it merely guiderails to guiderails, or other components of the overall product line?

Looking at the ez table, it seems to me that the clamping functionality of the MFT isn't there considering that the support pieces slide in and out. So, I'm assuming that while you could clamp "down" onto the supports, I don't know how you'd exert sideways pressure. I am sure someone will tell us if that is possible!

It seems from your post that you don't have the power tools to fill out "the system" either F or E. So the real question is whether the power tools you are suggesting as an alternative to those in the "F sytem" are in fact equivalent, or if the F tools have superior characteristics and are therefore worth the premium.

I don't know the answer, but I'm sure that there are others here who do. Is the PC saw equivalent to the ATF? What router are you considering?

Personally, the "tipping point" for me was not the MFT, but the Rotex 150 and the dust collector. I now enjoy sanding, and I sand dust free. I am astounded at how long a sandpaper disk lasts with the dust collection system.

I enjoy using my MFT but I agree that you could use any other surface with a series of holes drilled in a grid to accomplish many of the clamping/cutting operations. However, I don't know how much it would cost to create something that is as portable, I just fold it up and lean it against the wall when I don't need it.

Finally, I decided that I didn't want to "fuss" with making a bunch of different tools/guides work together. I know that all the Festool products will work together. As a final aside I really like the Systainers, they force me to keep my shop neater, and they are a great way to store all the little accessories that tend to wander away.

If you can, get you hands on this equipment if you can, you'll notice lots of careful engineering details. For example, the Guide system on the MFT has a holder for the hex wrench you'll need to attach the rail to the hinge, it is right at hand, and you'll never have to look around for it.

Good luck with your decision, part of the fun is the evaluation process, you'll find lots of help here

Jay

[John Lucas]

I have before spoken out about the Festool line...it is wonderful. Now let me approach the question from a different aspect. I dont think that the F vs EZ table is the answer. It is really what you need a table for.
I use a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood on two horses and then layered with a 1" foam board. To me, that is the table for all my panel cuts. It handles standard panel sizes best, it reduces my having to lift and reposition heavy panels before and after cutting and I get the best cuts when using this.. That is for real. By having the rigid foam in direct contact under the panel, I can set the plunge depth to go 1/4" into the foam. The foam is gentle on the blade and serves as a zero clearance plate to the blade. With the way the Festool guide rail protects the upper cut with the splinter guard, the foam has similar effect on the underside. So for all panel cuts, that is the setup I use. And I can get as clean and accurate a cut as I would with Forrest or better blades on my cabinet saw.
I use the MFT1080 table for a myriad of other tasks: crosscutting smaller boards, routing pieces, repetitive sawing narrow pieces for rail and stile material, and as a work table for the VS600 dovetail jig, or a router table having mounted the Jessem mast-r-lift in it. It serves all these functions and more mostly because of the deck having all those 22mm holes. They just allow quick and strong holddowns to the wood and/or to the jig.
I can't speak to the EZ side...but I would assume that in some way it can do most of those functions. I suppose you could also order a FEstool MFT replacement top and mount that EZwise.
When I first got an MFT, I went in search for clamps and things that could be used successfuly with the table: http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fest-cl11.jpg

[JayStPeter]

Like Chris, I find the excellent dust collection of the Festool to the most important thing to me. I borrowed a PC and tried it hooked to my vac before going with the Festool. My choice speaks for my satisfaction with the PC and it's dust collection.
Since that decision, I've added a few more Festools to my shop. Still no MFT ... yet.

Jay

[Per Swenson]

I cannot comment on the merits of the EZ system,

Never used it.

I am wondering how the At 55 saw tattoo will look

under the picture of Mom and my Harley.

All kidding aside, I have the 55, the 65, 1010 and 1400 router

two vacs, mft 1080, most of the sanders 26 feet of guide rail.

I also love Mr lucas's table system. (Thanks John).

Evey bit of it makes me money. Also on the Mft you can use

wolfcraft/irwin/ pen state style spreader clamps through the holes.

Festool is not just a guide rail, but a whole system.

A uncomplicated system that saves time and effort at every turn.

Please note I am one of the more thrifty people you might meet,

but as the old saying goes.... "son you can't afford to buy a cheap set

of work boots." Below is a shot of a spreader clamp through the MFT.

No controversy. Hope this helps.

Per

[Dino Makropoulos]

Now my question is the Festool MFT package something that can't be duplicated as easily as I think or not? Can I really build something like the Festool MFT using a similar design and the EZguide and come out with something that is a virtual replacement or will the result be something that will fall short of the Festool system?


So far, the main question that Ed posed has not been addressed, regarding whether the EZ Smart table can be adapted to do all or most of the things that the MFT can do. Can anyone elaborate on that?

Dan


Let me try.
I think I'm the only unbiased around here. :confused: :rolleyes: :D

The MTF was designed to work with the F guide rails in order to extend the capabilities of the F.System. (Cross cuts- narrow stock )
And the same time can be used as an MFT.
You will need another cutting table or method for the larger panels or stock.

The Smart table was designed to have a small foot print (2'x4') but with large capacity (extendable) and to provide 100% clamping access to the smart clamps. The open top design makes the Smart table ideal for pocket holes and face frame assembly.

Back to the question. Can the Ez table be adapted to do all the MTF functions?
Very EZ if you get the MTF top and some of the F.Stuff.

You don't need all the F,stuff if you have the EZ guide rails because the EZ guide rails are designed to have all the stuff on the rails and not on the table.

On the other hand. Can the MTF be adapted to get the EZ Top?
Nothing to it. One 24'x48" - 3/4" plywood and the kit.

You see guys.
I don't have to defend or explain any of my tool buying decisions.
I get them all for free. :) :cool:

Ed.
I hope my answer can help you to make your smart decision (the guided systems) easier.



YCF Dino

[Paul Berendsohn]

At the risk of walking a very fine line, but in the interest of reassuring Ed I'd like to address a sadly common misconception. I take a back seat to no one when it comes to spending what I need to to get the best tool for the job. Talking about frugality, getting what you pay for, etc etc is a red herring.

When I needed an oscilloscope, I bought Tektronix. My spectrum analyzer is Anritsu. When I started doing a lot of pocket holes, I bought the PC "dual router" driven automated pocket hole cutter. I started out looking at a multithousand dollar system (not Brand "F" :p ) and wound up buying a SmartGuide system, Ed.

Did I ever think I'd have been better off spending the price difference you originally referred to? Nope, and I wound up buying a second SmartGuide, a SmartTable and a SmartRouter Kit. It's not about the best tool for the money ( I assume from your original question), it's about the best tool... for my money it's SmartGuide, period...at any price.

[Greg Mann]

Let me be a little clearer here. I'm not trying to convert the Smart table. What I'm wondering is if I can construct something similar to the Festool MFT using EZguide parts.
I know I can buy the table top and swivel unit, is it possible to cobble a Ezguide to them? Or is there something better to use. Or is this just not practical.
snipped

Ed, About a year ago I started a thread 'My Version of the MFT'. If you want to see what it takes try to emulate the capabilities of the MFT that thread may be of interest. Did I succeed in my goal? About halfway. I made what was essentially an equivalent assembly table but that's about it. Here is the clincher. Most of the materials were already in my possession but to finish it off it still cost me almost as much as the MFT, and I spent alot of time on it to boot. If I had needed to buy all the materials I would have been upside down on cost by a whole lot and I still did not have everything I wanted. In the end, I really wanted the features my table lacked so I bought the MFT and have never regretted it. Everything in the system is just so well designed that it is a joy to use.

Greg

[Dave Avery]

[QUOTE=Paul Berendsohn]At the risk of walking a very fine line, but in the interest of reassuring Ed I'd like to address a sadly common misconception. I take a back seat to no one when it comes to spending what I need to to get the best tool for the job. Talking about frugality, getting what you pay for, etc etc is a red herring.


Paul,

Let's assume that the EZ system is the best tool, period. As I've mentioned before, I have no idea whether is is or not, but let's assume that it is. Let's also assume that Festool and Dino are equally capable of marketing their products. In the LONG -ERM, one of 2 things WILL happen,

1. Festool improves its product, lowers its price, or goes out of business if they do neither, or

2. Dino, who rightly admits he's in this for the money, raises his prices because he's leaving money on the table. Why would anyone sell a better product for less money than they can?


Scenario 2 is, by far, the more likely outcome. So you really do get what you pay for in the long-term, Paul. And if EZ is better and cheaper, enjoy it while you can because it won't last.

From an interest in pure economic theory, I'd be interested in hearing other specific examples where, in the long term, better products are priced less than inferior products.

[Dino Makropoulos]

The Smart table was designed to have a small foot print (2'x4') but with large capacity (extendable) and to provide 100% clamping access to the smart clamps. The open top design makes the Smart table ideal for pocket holes and face frame assembly.
YCF Dino

And here is a link with the Smart table in use.

http://www.garymkatz.com/TrimTechniques/CraftsmanMantel-2005.htm

Gary is using 2 sawhorses. Some guys using their table saws and others their MTF. I think the best is the MTF.

[Mark Singer]

We are still talking about the same stuff? Why not just direct the question to previous links...there are volumes of SMC posts on the subject? If we each spent time in the shop instead....you could actually make someting instead of just talking about it!

[Frank Pellow]

We are still talking about the same stuff? Why not just direct the question to previous links...there are volumes of SMC posts on the subject? If we each spent time in the shop instead....you could actually make someting instead of just talking about it!
Mark, I beg to differ. I don't think that Ed wantis to know about exactly the same stuff. Granted, a few folks are replying as if it were the same stuff, but, as I read it, Ed has asked about maiking his own multi-function table and if he can achieve a table which is as good (or better?) than less than the Festool one and save money in the process.

I believe that I, at least, have learned from some of the responses in this thread.

[John Stevens]

That's a difference of around $600. Not deal stopping but I wonder if Festool option is worth it.

Well, your hypothetical assumes you'll be buying a PC saw, a Fein vac, and a $200 router of unspecified brand, as opposed to the Festool saw, vac and router. Assuming that the EZ system does the same things as the F system, I'd say that it's worth spending the $600 for the F system simply because the TOOLS work so much better. Not to take anything away from PC, Fein, and, a good-quality router like a Bosch, but the F tools work amazingly well. I bought my first ones (jigsaw and router) only because I knew I could return them and get my money back within 30 days. In fact, I thought it was pretty likely I'd return them by the end of the trial period but as it turned out, they'd have had to pry them out of my cold, dead hands. Since then I've bought an F circular saw, three F sanders and a slew of F accessories.

At first, I had to think long and hard about how to justify buying F when there were so many good tools like PC and Bosch at 1/2 to 1/3 the price of F. Now I have to think very seriously about NOT buying F if F sells the type of tool I'm looking for. FWIW, I'm not into conspicuous consumption at all--my wife and I have one car, a 1993 Nissan pickup with no air conditioning, no CD player, no tape deck. We put our money where it gives us the best value, and F tools fit the bill.

[Mark Singer]

Sorry....it is all a blurr...MFT's(is it ok to post that?) ....55e's ...excuse me while I sneeze
Mark, I beg to differ. I don't think that Ed wantis to know about exactly the same stuff. Granted, a few folks are replying as if it were the same stuff, but, as I read it, Ed has asked about maiking his own multi-function table and if he can achieve a table which is as good (or better?) than less than the Festool one and save money in the process.

I believe that I, at least, have learned from some of the responses in this thread.

[Dino Makropoulos]

[QUOTE=Paul Berendsohn]At the risk of walking a very fine line, but in the interest of reassuring Ed I'd like to address a sadly common misconception. I take a back seat to no one when it comes to spending what I need to to get the best tool for the job. Talking about frugality, getting what you pay for, etc etc is a red herring.


Paul,

Let's assume that the EZ system is the best tool, period. As I've mentioned before, I have no idea whether is is or not, but let's assume that it is. Let's also assume that Festool and Dino are equally capable of marketing their products. In the LONG -ERM, one of 2 things WILL happen,

1. Festool improves its product, lowers its price, or goes out of business if they do neither, or

2. Dino, who rightly admits he's in this for the money, raises his prices because he's leaving money on the table. Why would anyone sell a better product for less money than they can?


Scenario 2 is, by far, the more likely outcome. So you really do get what you pay for in the long-term, Paul. And if EZ is better and cheaper, enjoy it while you can because it won't last.

From an interest in pure economic theory, I'd be interested in hearing other specific examples where, in the long term, better products are priced less than inferior products.

Dave.
You're right on everything.
But where you see to many rights ...
One big wrong is ..always there.

[John Hemenway]

Now my question is the Festool MFT package something that can't be duplicated as easily as I think or not? Can I really build something like the Festool MFT using a similar design and the EZguide and come out with something that is a virtual replacement or will the result be something that will fall short of the Festool system?

So does anyone remember the question Ed asked? Doesn't seem like it so I quoted it for reference. I observe once the rabbid F or E users get going the original question is not part of the discussion. Owning neither F or E I have a similar question.

The MFT seems to be flat, has lots of holes and some edge track system. Is this the extent of it? How hard would it be to reproduce it's functionallity? Could I do this for less $$ than Festool sells it for? This is not that different than making any shop aid instead of buying it, making a table instead of buying it at Ikea...

So F and E owners (especially owners of F's MFT), can we focus here!! :eek:

[Dave Avery]

[QUOTE=Dave Avery]

Dave.
You're right on everything.
But where you see to many rights ...
One big wrong is ..always there.

Way too deep for me, Dino :D While I have a fair understanding off economic theory, philosophy is not my strong suit........ good luck selling your product. Dave.

[Jay Knoll]

John

I think here's the genesis of what you see as a lack of focus

Ed asked "will the result be something that will fall short of the Festool system?"

So the question is, are we just talking about the MFT surface, or the MTF with guiderail and fence etc? Or the capabilty to expand into the full Festool product line?

There are so many dimensions to this question, and the answer depends on a lot of personal circumstances.

Personally, about a year ago, I was confused about the issue as well. I spent a lot of time reading this forum, did some PM with specific SMC members, and searched for a location where I could get my hands on the tools and see what they were all about.

I think we're doing a great job of maintaining a nice balanced tone on this thread

And I'm always bemused that we don't get this kind of intensity when it comes to hand planes! :p

Jay

[Ken Salisbury]

So F and E owners (especially owners of F's MFT), can we focus here!! :eek:



Excellent point

[Dave Avery]

So does anyone remember the question Ed asked? Doesn't seem like it so I quoted it for reference. I observe once the rabbid F or E users get going the original question is not part of the discussion. Owning neither F or E I have a similar question.

The MFT seems to be flat, has lots of holes and some edge track system. Is this the extent of it? How hard would it be to reproduce it's functionallity? Could I do this for less $$ than Festool sells it for? This is not that different than making any shop aid instead of buying it, making a table instead of buying it at Ikea...

So F and E owners (especially owners of F's MFT), can we focus here!! :eek:


John,

Re-read post 25. Greg did exactly what you're suggesting and found that the cost to build would exceed purchasing the MFT.

My input...... at my skills (intermediate) it would probably take me 10 hours to plan and execute a pseudo-MFT. Assuming materials cost $200 (more, if you listen to Greg), I'd be paying myself about $20/hour to make a MFT which would, I can guarantee, not be as good as the real thing. As I said in my earlier post - it boils down to what's more important to you, time in the shop actually making something, or money. For me, it was an easy decision. Equally, there are many other people with different situations and different priorities who would gladly save $200 in exchange for time. Hope this helps provide clarity in terms of how I made my decision. Dave.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Dave (and Greg) on this point relative to the original question...I do not believe I could duplicate the MFT within reasonable cost and/or time to justify the attempt. It's way beyond the typical shop aid. Even drilling all the holes to exact specifications would be a major bear of a job...they absolutely have to be pin-point accurate in location as they affect all the critical alignment adjustments.

That said, you could duplicate some of the functionality easily, accurately and inexpensively if something less versatile would suffice. For me, the investment in the product has been justified to date and it's changing the way I work, for the better. I believe the same would be said for the other solution if I happened to own it, but it's different than the MFT. Which is ok. We all have different needs.

[Mark Singer]

Dave,
You are right!
It seems to me unless you really like re working chisels and planes....and many other tools , it makes a lot of sense to just buy them! You are 100% correct. I would rater spend a couple of hours working and then easily justify the expense. I think a great deal of thought has gone into many tools and the copy will not be as good.

John,

Re-read post 25. Greg did exactly what you're suggesting and found that the cost to build would exceed purchasing the MFT.

My input...... at my skills (intermediate) it would probably take me 10 hours to plan and execute a pseudo-MFT. Assuming materials cost $200 (more, if you listen to Greg), I'd be paying myself about $20/hour to make a MFT which would, I can guarantee, not be as good as the real thing. As I said in my earlier post - it boils down to what's more important to you, time in the shop actually making something, or money. For me, it was an easy decision. Equally, there are many other people with different situations and different priorities who would gladly save $200 in exchange for time. Hope this helps provide clarity in terms of how I made my decision. Dave.

[John Stevens]

So does anyone remember the question Ed asked? Doesn't seem like it....

John (and Ken), please re-read Ed's original post and think in terms of issues, not questions. Ed raises three issues, although he only asks two questions.

One, which was raised in the second of the two questions John quoted, asks whether he can make a tool that will function as well as the MFT, but the question puts no conditions on the time, effort or money spent pursuing that goal.

Another, which was raised in the first of the two questions John quoted, asks whether he can make a tool that will function as well as the MFT, but this question imposes the condition that he be able to do so easily.

There is a third issue, which you missed, perhaps because it's not phrased as a question. He wondered whether it would be worth spending an extra $600 to buy the F system, as opposed an alternative he proposes. I quoted Ed's formulation of the issue and responded to it. Jay Knoll, John Lucas, Greg Mann, Dave Avery and Mark Singer also responded to it. Our responses differ, but they're all relevant to this issue.

[Greg Mann]

I don't think anyone should question either Dino's or Festool's desire/need to make money off their efforts. We all need to eat. In fact, Ed's original post was about how he might accomplish what he wanted while saving some money in the process, which, for the sake of this excersise, in my mind, puts him in the same motivational frame of mind as Dino and Festool. If my logic is right (please tell me it is ;)) there should be no contention about intentions.

My experience in trying to do just about exactly what Ed is aspiring to do is that he won't save money unless he is willing to settle for less utility than he could get simply by purchasing an MFT. I suspect, but can't say for sure since I haven't tried it, that the exact same experience would hold if he tried to duplicate a SmartTable on his own. So far, I can claim the distinction of being the only one who has tried to do what Ed wants to do. I only failed by a cost/benefit ratio of about 2. :o So, if he is twice as good as I am, and he very well might be, then he might break even. :D

So my advice is; Pick a path and base it on the following: (hear the drumroll?) 1. Decide what features you value in an assembly/cut-off/miter/guided router/whatever else floats your boat table. 2. Decide if you want to pursue a mainly Festool based repertoire or use other tools adapted to EZ. 3. Make a choice based on 1 and 2, buy it, and refrain from second-guessing yourself. Either way will probably be just fine.

Indulge me in a final thought. Ed, I am not casting aspersions of what you aspire to do. It must be reasonable since I tried to do it too. :rolleyes: I sometimes have grand illusions about making killer stationary machines, but then I give it about 10 seconds and think better of it.

Greg

[John Miliunas]

Gentlemen, as much as I've "enjoyed" this friendly badminton game, there's one very simple "solution", to which nobody seems to have made note of. Mind you, I own and love my EZ system. At the same time, I also probably have an "above average" number of Festool machines and cherish those, as well.:)

To the point: If I'm not mistaken, I believe that BOTH OEM's offer a "Money Back Guarantee" on their tools. Ed, if you're leaning at all in either direction, take that path and try them! If you don't like them, send them back. Or, even if you do like them, you may want to give the other a fair shot, as well. No, not quite as easy as trying a different suit on at the store, but in my eyes, a heckuva' lot more importance to fit and finish here, so you may as well be totally happy!:) Just an option....:) :cool:

[Ed Blough]

WOW! This thread has been all over the place subject wise, marketing, motivation, and even my question.

Let me say thanks to everyone for all of your input. Some I will use, some I laughed at, and some I’m still trying to figure out.

I think to understand what I was asking you had to have read Jerry's manual on the MFT.
To Greg Mann I think what you did was try to duplicate the MFT using parts you could get your hands on. I’m not thinking of duplicating the MFT but rather the MFT’s capabilities.

Perhaps I can make my question easier. The MFT comes with a device that allows you to set the guide rail to various crosscut angles. I think the part is called swivel unit, and perhaps the angle stop. If I bought a Ezguide system and a Festool Table is there some way I could mount the Ezguide on the table to give me similar crosscut capability?

I think Dino said yes. But didn’t tell me how. Do I mount the guiderail to Festools angle jig or does Ezguide have something to set their guide a specific angle for crosscutting?

Also Festool has a device called the combination angle unit. Is there anything like that can be used with the Ezguide?

[Frank Pellow]

Gentlemen, as much as I've "enjoyed" this friendly badminton game, there's one very simple "solution", to which nobody seems to have made note of. Mind you, I own and love my EZ system. At the same time, I also probably have an "above average" number of Festool machines and cherish those, as well.:)

To the point: If I'm not mistaken, I believe that BOTH OEM's offer a "Money Back Guarantee" on their tools. Ed, if you're leaning at all in either direction, take that path and try them! If you don't like them, send them back. Or, even if you do like them, you may want to give the other a fair shot, as well. No, not quite as easy as trying a different suit on at the store, but in my eyes, a heckuva' lot more importance to fit and finish here, so you may as well be totally happy!:) Just an option....:) :cool:
First of all, John I would like to say that it's good to see you active so soon after your operation. :) The advice that you give is good but I don't see how it will help Ed decide whether or not to take on the task of building his own "multi-function smart" table.

Ed, About a year ago I needed to decide on whether or not to build my own multi-function table. I read about the table that Greg has built (and later on I saw it in person). I even "desgined" several home made table's some of which used one or more of the Festool pre-drill tops (currently $78 for the 108 cm version). Using their tops gets around the "precise spacing of so many holes" problem.

Another thing that I did was to acquire the kit to build and EZ smart table top kit and build it. I like the table top and I used it a lot at my summer place (Pellow's Camp located in a remote spot about 1000 kilometres from Toronto). I left the smart table top at Pellow's last autumn by mistake and have not been back this year to retrieve it.

In the end, I decided that it was going to take me too long to get around to buildig a Festool MFT clone, so I purchased one. It has neat features that I doubt I would have built into my table had I built one. So, for me, purchase was the right way to go.

I see the Festool table and the EZ tables as complimenting each other, not as competing with each other. And, I look forward to the day when I retrieve my EZ smart table top and have both at my disposal in my shop.

[Ken Salisbury]

I am shocked how far this got out of hand and I wasn't able to get to it sooner.

I have deleted/edited all posts (40 in all) deemed to have violated the Terms of Service.


THIS THREAD HAS BEEN CLOSED TO FURTHER POSTING !!!


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