Is anyone using a Veritas PM-V11 on a Stanley No.3 (or 5-1/4) - UPDATE

[Mark Engel]

I picked up a PM-V11 cutter and cap iron set from Lee Valley to put on a Stanley Bailey No.3, type 16. Could not get it to work.

With the cap iron set at ~1/32" from the cutting edge, the cap iron screw bottoms out in the frog recess before the cutting iron reaches the mouth. Neither the cutting iron or cap iron are touching the mouth, so that is not the problem. I have tried this set on all of the No.3 planes that I have in the shop and also on a No.5-1/4 with the same results.

I have been working with Lee Valley customer support, but they are unable to figure out what the problem is. I think the threaded hole in the cap iron may have been drilled too close to the bottom edge. This seems to be the case when I compare the hole locations in the Veritas to the hole locations in the Stanley(s).

So, after all that, has anyone installed the PM-V11 iron and cap on a Stanley No.3 and got it to work?

FYI: all of the planes I have tried this set on are 'newer' models, Type 16,17,18, the 5-1/4 is a type 15. I don't currently have anything older to try it on.

[Doug Freeman]

I had the same issue with a #7. The hole may be a little lower, and the cap iron screw head was bigger. I milled out some clearance in the frog above the center bolt hole, and it has worked fine for several years.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mark

Here is a (UK-made) Stanley #3 that was recently re-furbished and completed with a PM-V11 blade and Veritas chipbreaker ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Bobs%20Stanley/BobsStanley1_zpsfab0b186.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Bobs%20Stanley/BobsStanley2_zpsbbc0c785.jpg

There were no issues installing the combination. UK-make Bailey-designs tend to be similar to the later versions sold by Stanley.

However, I could not swap out the blades with a LN #3. The limiting factor turned out to be the Veritas chipbreaker, which has a different hole height.

Have you tried the PM-V11 blade with a Stanley chipbreaker?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Engel]

Thanks guys.

Yes Derek. I now have the PM-V11 blade with a Stanley chip breaker on the plane and it works as it should.

Here are a couple of pictures I took and sent to Lee Valley CS. I ran the cap iron screw through the Stanley chip breaker and into the Veritas chip breaker to align the two threaded holes. You can see that the Stanley chip breaker edge is quite a bit further from the threaded hole than the Veritas hole is.

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Lee Valley CS has told me that they are going to send all of the information and pictures I provided to Veritas to see what they have to say.

BTW, Lee Valley customer service (Marty) has been great. They have answered all of my emails and worked with me to try to get the issue resolved. Since no resolution seems apparent, they have offered a full refund and, as always, have provided a return shipping label.

[Mark Engel]

Apparently, not many have taken the plunge.

I have had more opportunity to use the No.3 with the PM-V11 iron and so far I am impressed. I honed the iron before putting it on the plane (they come sharpened and with the backs flattened) and have not yet had to re-hone. It has already kept it's edge much longer than any of my Stanley, Sargent, Union, etc. irons, but I guess that is to be expected.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Mark is it working with the Stanley chipbreaker or the Veritas one?

[Mark Engel]

I am using it with the Stanley chip breaker.

I have another No.3 coming in to the shop early next week. It is a type 11 or 12. I will give the Veritas chip breaker one more try on that plane before sending it back, if it doesn't work.

[lowell holmes]

I have the chip breaker (and irons) on three planes. They are not Baileys.
They are on 604, 605, and 607 Bedrocks. I am very happy with them.
I think the chip breakers are more important than the irons.

I realize this has no bearing on the #3 Bailey. I have a #3 Bailey I favor. It is a Canadian built.
If you decide to rid your self of the #3 chip breaker, PM me. I would be happy to buy it from you.

[Russ Webb]

I have a PMV-11 blade and cap iron on an older #3 and it works perfectly so perhaps there is a sufficient difference between the older and newer types to create a problem in the newer.

For what it's worth I have been very impressed with the blade. I have used it extensively in building my new shop and it has held an edge better than any blade I've every owned. I plan to buy more!

[Mark Engel]

I have the chip breaker (and irons) on three planes. They are not Baileys.
They are on 604, 605, and 607 Bedrocks. I am very happy with them.
I think the chip breakers are more important than the irons.

I realize this has no bearing on the #3 Bailey. I have a #3 Bailey I favor. It is a Canadian built.
If you decide to rid your self of the #3 chip breaker, PM me. I would be happy to buy it from you.

I also have the PM-V11 set on a No.4 Bailey and it works fine. I have both a No.5 and No.6 Bailey with the Veritas chip breaker mounted on Hock irons. They also work great.

The thought at this point is that maybe the chip breaker I received had it's threaded hole drilled in the wrong place. It's a long shot, but Marty at LV is going to check it out when I send it back. Which is another way of saying thanks for the offer Lowell, but LV asked for it first. ;)

[Mark Engel]

I have a PMV-11 blade and cap iron on an older #3 and it works perfectly so perhaps there is a sufficient difference between the older and newer types to create a problem in the newer.

For what it's worth I have been very impressed with the blade. I have used it extensively in building my new shop and it has held an edge better than any blade I've every owned. I plan to buy more!

Well now I am torn.
Do I return this one to Lee Valley for a refund and let them check it out to see if the hole was drilled incorrectly.
Or, do I hold onto it until I get the type 11/12 Bailey early next week. Based on your experience, this chip breaker may work on the older plane/frog.

Decisions.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Do I return this one to Lee Valley for a refund and let them check it out to see if the hole was drilled incorrectly.
Or, do I hold onto it until I get the type 11/12 Bailey early next week. Based on your experience, this chip breaker may work on the older plane/frog.

It's only a week, why not wait. The Lee Valley people know about it so I would hang ten. At least we'll all know if it's an old/newer type issue.

[Mark Engel]

Yeah, good call. I'll hold on to it until I can check the fit on the older No.3

[Mark Engel]

Hi Mark

Here is a (UK-made) Stanley #3 that was recently re-furbished and completed with a PM-V11 blade and Veritas chipbreaker ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Bobs%20Stanley/BobsStanley1_zpsfab0b186.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Bobs%20Stanley/BobsStanley2_zpsbbc0c785.jpg

There were no issues installing the combination. UK-make Bailey-designs tend to be similar to the later versions sold by Stanley.

However, I could not swap out the blades with a LN #3. The limiting factor turned out to be the Veritas chipbreaker, which has a different hole height.

Have you tried the PM-V11 blade with a Stanley chipbreaker?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, if you get a chance will you take a measurement from the bottom of the threaded hole to the bottom of the chip breaker?
The chip breaker I have measures 2.721" between those two points.

[Mark Engel]

Okay, here is an update.

I got the Bailey No.3 type 11 in the shop today. I checked the chip breaker on this plane against the Veritas chip breaker and found the same difference in distance from the threaded hole to the bottom of the chip breaker. I checked the chip breaker from the type 11 against several other No.3 size Stanley chip breakers and they all were very close in length and hole positions.

I went ahead and put the Veritas chip breaker on the Veritas blade and installed the set on the type 11 plane, and it worked! That had me confused.

Took the set off of the plane and removed the frog form the plane. I measured from the top of the lever cap screw to the bottom of the frog. I had done this with a few other frogs while trying to troubleshoot the problem with LV. Anyway, the measurement on the type 11 frog was ~2.227", on the type 16 plane that same measurement was ~2.306". That is a difference of ~.079" which is enough of a difference to prevent the blade from reaching the sole of the plane. I have passed this information on the Marty at LV so he can figure out a next step.

Now, although the Veritas set is working on this type 11 No.3, I am a little concerned about how far out the depth adjuster has to be to get the iron into cutting position. I don't ever remember having to screw the adjuster this far out to engage the workpiece. Does this look right to you?

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[Judson Green]

Heres both my 3's with the iron just about ready to engage. I think yours (judging by the position of the yoke) is out a bit further.

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Both are low knob, no ring in the casting for the knob to seat on. Small adjuster wheel.

[Mark Engel]

Looks like both of your pictured planes have Stanley irons and chip breakers? I have seen similar settings with the original blades and breakers installed.

All of my Bailey planes (with various iron/chip breaker sets) have at least a small bit of the depth adjuster stud peeking out of the depth adjuster nut. With this Veritas set installed the depth adjuster stud is several threads deep in the depth adjuster nut. At this setting the plane is taking shavings in the .001-.002 range.

[Judson Green]

Yep, stock gear. The stud is just poking out.

282795

[Mark Engel]

Yeah, that is what I am seeing with all of my other planes. Something still don't seem quite right with this Veritas set.

[Jim Koepke]

I have not been paying full attention to this thread, but did see something about cap iron measurements.

This thread might be of interest:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?109710-Would-this-be-Useful

The tenth post down has a .pdf with measurements for different cap irons from Stanley/Bailey planes.

jtk

[Mark Engel]

Something doesn't look quite right with that pdf. In the picture of the cap iron, shouldn't the threaded hole 'C', be between 'A' and 'B'? That is how it is depicted in your first post.

[Fred Taylor]

For what it's worth, not only do the frogs differ on Stanley planes, so do the adjustment yokes. Some stick up much higher through the slot in the chip breaker than others, affecting the amount of circular travel and therefore the amount on total blade adjustment. You can sometimes interchange yokes and get a better range of adjustment. I've never used a LV blade, but have done this when fitting a thicker LN blade and aftermarket chip breaker to a Stanley. The slot location in replacement chip breakers also varies between production runs, even in the same manufacturer. Have had this happen with Hock, LN, And Clifton chip breakers. LN and Ron Hock were both able to supply breakers with the correct distance when contacted. They can also custom make a slot at the correct distance for your particular plane. Just remember blade thickness effects the equation.

Good luck.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Something doesn't look quite right with that pdf. In the picture of the cap iron, shouldn't the threaded hole 'C', be between 'A' and 'B'? That is how it is depicted in your first post.

I think Jim admits that the pic in that PDF was the wrong one.

[Jim Koepke]

My gosh, my mistake coming back to haunt me.

I think the numbers are right but the drawing has the holes swapped.

Not sure there was much real interest in it since no one submitted measurements for Sargent, Union, Millers Falls or any other planes.

No I may have to get one of them round tuits and fix it or forget it.

jtk

[Hilton Ralphs]

Jim, do you have info for any of the British made Stanley and Record planes? If not then I can provide some more information.

[Jim Koepke]

Hilton, no I do not have any information on British made Stanley or Record planes.

Not sure if someone told me they were pretty much the same or if anyone is evem interested.

But thanks,

jtk