Lie-Nielsen is in the news

[Sam Whit]

Googled Lie-Nielsen and this popped up at the top of the page.

http://www.wmtw.com/news/tonight-at-five-made-in-maine-tools/24407454

Hopefully the station or LN will post the segment.

[george wilson]

If they export tools to China,the Chinese will probably copy them and market them here. That's what happened when the British loaned a Rolls Royce jet engine to the Russians. Without their permission,they put their copies into the Mig 15 of the Korean war.

I don't know if it matters. The LN tools are copies themselves,beefed up some. It's the quality and precision that counts. I doubt the Chinese would be equal to them.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

George, I think they already copied. They call them wood river.

[Daniel Rode]

If they export tools to China,the Chinese will probably copy them and market them here. That's what happened when the British loaned a Rolls Royce jet engine to the Russians. Without their permission,they put their copies into the Mig 15 of the Korean war.

I don't know if it matters. The LN tools are copies themselves,beefed up some. It's the quality and precision that counts. I doubt the Chinese would be equal to them.

I don't think the Chinese or any other country would need the tools exported in order to get the design to copy. They could easily work off the existing bedrock design or simply buy a few from LN for direct copies. Copying hand plane design to create a low quality item is cheap and easy. Getting the design or a copy of an airplane engine is incomparably more difficult and expensive.

More dangerous is moving production to China, India or wherever else. In this case, they not only have access to the overall design but also the full manufacturing process.

[maximillian arango]

I see no problem with this because even if someone starts making copies the price wont be cheap enough to compete with the real deal and they will still be to expensive to compete with the used market. Even at 30 dollars I would rather buy a rusty stanley over buck bros.

[Jim Matthews]

There's a growing market cachet for genuine articles, in China.

A certain degree of snob appeal accompanies this kind of purchase, everywhere.
China is no exception in that regard.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-08-27/the-chinese-want-quality-too

[David Weaver]

One of the guys in my wedding party used to be the weekend weatherman at that TV station. I think they changed ownership and changed gender for the weekend weather person, too, and he moved to baton rouge.

[Frederick Skelly]

If they export tools to China,the Chinese will probably copy them and market them here. That's what happened when the British loaned a Rolls Royce jet engine to the Russians. Without their permission,they put their copies into the Mig 15 of the Korean war.

George is right. The Soviets did the same thing with a B-29 right after the war. Interestingly, I recently read an analysis that said copying our work did more than anything else to advance the quality of Russian industry - especially aircraft and metallurgy - newer materials, tighter tolerances, new techniques, etc.

Now copying a hand plane isnt the same thing as copying an AIRplane. But it seems plausible that the Chinese could learn to compete with LN given time and the desire to improve. I wouldnt discount their manufacturing POTENTIAL. Remember that as late as 1970, things labelled "Made in Japan" were viewed as a joke in much of the US. Ten years later it wasnt funny anymore.

Fred

[george wilson]

Stalin gave his aircraft designer 3 years to make a copy of a B-29 that force landed in their territory. Funny thing is,they even copied the rivets. But Russian sheet metal gauges were heavier than USA ones. The rivets proved too short. They had to carefully roll down the edges of every sheet metal panel on the copy to get the rivets to work. I wonder why they just didn't get a factory to roll some correct sheets instead. They called it the Tupalov something or other,since he was the head forger(as in illicit copier).

IIRC,Buick is the most popular U.S. made car in China.

[Tom Vanzant]

I read recently that the interior of some Buick models is designed in China. Won't be too long now...

[Simon MacGowen]

Relationship between exporting LN tools and getting copied = 0, because as someone has pointed out, the LN tools can easily be obtained on the open market. The only barrier to copying in this case is cost, if the legal aspects are taken out, and not its availability. WC has done its copies of the Stanley's with reasonable success well before LN's decision to export its goods to China. Why the exporting decision is a factor is beyond me.



Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

I suspect it has more to do with the middle and wealthy class in china wanting to perform their hobbies than manufacturers making copies. People, including myself, already pay for LN over similar options, so more Chinese made pieces won't have much effect.

Before the cultural revolution, china had an incredible amount of skilled craftsmen. Now that they once again have a middle class and a very successful upper class, they will be able to support people who are building at a high level of craftsmenship.

[Anthony Moumar]

I agree, I don't think that LN exporting their planes to China will help them copy them. If they wanted they could easily get someone to buy and send them one from overseas. I think the example of Airplanes isn't applicable here because they had military use where as woodworking tools do not.

I work for for a company that does manufacturing here in Australia but we do outsource the manufacturing of some parts to China. I've learned they they can make anything to and level of quality depending on how much money your willing to spend. The main reason Chinese made products tend to be low quality is because people aren't willing to pay for quality in a lot of cases. High quality manufacturing only appeals to certain niche markets. China excels at mass production and it isn't much cheaper to many factor in china if it's low volume. I think that's the main reason why there isn't much high quality products coming from China. An exception to this is Apple products. They are a high volume product that's manufactured to a high standard in China. Apple are willing to spend the money that it costs to set up that sort of manufacturing. If they were made in the US I don't think they would be made any better. A Chinese company could make exact copies of LN planes but the costs would not be low it enough to make it worth their while. Especially consisting the stigma that "Made in China" has amongst woodworkers.

[Frederick Skelly]

Interesting discussion with lots of good points guys. Thanks - I enjoyed this one.
Fred

[Derek Cohen]

It makes sense to me for LN to sell to China ... assuming that there is a market there for the Real McCoy (that is, woodworkers with the knowledge and the money), then there is no better way to drive up the desire for the real thing than make it available. Copies, such as made by WoodRiver, will lose appeal - at least so amongst those who are not swayed principally by a low price. No doubt this group will be smaller in number than those purchasing the WoodRiver copies, but that is probably similar to Western countries, when perceived value-for-money a major factor.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Adam Petersen]

I wonder if they will complain about the lack of "Made in China" tools available these days....

[Joe Tilson]

After talking to some of the international students from Clemson Univ. The Chinese say they have quality tools in their country, but because we North Americans want lower prices on everything, they only send junk to us to keep prices down. In China they make quality for the Chinese people. Don't discount them because of what we demand from them. I remember when SKF sent the smallest drill bit to Japan. They sent it back with a hole drill through the shaft, the length of the shaft.

[David Weaver]

Woodwell tools has been making stuff there for a while, and there's certainly nothing wrong with their tools (at least as long as you check the spec sheet and don't order some of their smaller planes that have uselessly narrow irons).

Their largest continental smoother is usually made of ebony or some kind of tropical wood (depending on what they have) and sold retail cheaper than you can get a good dry ebony blank over here and cheaper than you can get a decent western made HSS iron (the irons in most of the woodwell planes are HSS).

http://www.mujingfang.com/t/eng/itemdetails.asp?id=FE1179%2D050&SpecialOffer=&rec=4&sql=select+%2A+from+Item%5Fe1+WHERE+Status%3C%3E%2 7Hidden%27+and+ItemClass1%3D%27Woodworking+Tools+S eries%27+and+ItemClass2%3D%27European%2DStyle+Benc h+Planes%27

Has a decent functional chipbreaker, too.

(I know they make quality industrial tools, too. It's probably more of an issue that they would need to get close to what western industrial tools cost and can't penetrate the market here due to that).

[Greg Portland]

After talking to some of the international students from Clemson Univ. The Chinese say they have quality tools in their country, but because we North Americans want lower prices on everything, they only send junk to us to keep prices down. In China they make quality for the Chinese people. Don't discount them because of what we demand from them. I remember when SKF sent the smallest drill bit to Japan. They sent it back with a hole drill through the shaft, the length of the shaft.
+1. China has numerous semiconductor manufacturing facilities. If they can make features a thousandth of a human hair in clean room conditions then they can copy a hand plane.

[george wilson]

I have been hearing that drill bit story since the 8th. grade. It used to be the Germans sent the Swiss the smallest wire they could make. The Swiss drilled holes in it and threaded an even smaller wire in and out of it.

[Simon MacGowen]

China can send astronauts to the space and we can only blame our importers who set the specs and standards for the poor quality of some of the imported goods from China. Apple knows it is still much cheaper to import phones from China while keeping the quality it wants. Others set the standards low for higher profit margins. That is such a simple thing that I wonder why many woodworkers who are intelligent people still fail to understand or accept.

It is a matter of time that we will see Chinese-imported cars dominate the roads, along with Honda, Toyota and the competitive Korean cars, unless the government steps in. Look at Walmart: most of its non-food goods are imported; innovation is the only way we can survive. We can't compete on labor costs when it comes to tool making. I wish LN success but unless tool collecting is the reason, woodworking is hardly a hobby in China (the majority don't have garages and they live in high-rise buildings).

Simon

[David Weaver]

I don't think we'll see too many chinese cars. They'll just put a tariff on them and any chinese manufacturers (if there are any other than Hino trucks) will just build here like toyota and honda do.

[Simon MacGowen]

Who would have thought of seeing Japanese cars on our roads in the 50s? Given the way that we are changing how we define the origin of our products, I wouldn't rule out Chinese imported cars..., they may not be Chinese-imported in name, but every bit of it could really be made in China.

Not too long ago: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/16/tougher-standards-sought-for-made-in-america-label/?page=all

I was at Costco recently and the rep. told me I no longer could get a US-made TV cuz we've stopped making them. Sigh.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

China can send astronauts to the space and we can only blame our importers who set the specs and standards for the poor quality of some of the imported goods from China. Apple knows it is still much cheaper to import phones from China while keeping the quality it wants. Others set the standards low for higher profit margins. That is such a simple thing that I wonder why many woodworkers who are intelligent people still fail to understand or accept.

It is a matter of time that we will see Chinese-imported cars dominate the roads, along with Honda, Toyota and the competitive Korean cars, unless the government steps in. Look at Walmart: most of its non-food goods are imported; innovation is the only way we can survive. We can't compete on labor costs when it comes to tool making. I wish LN success but unless tool collecting is the reason, woodworking is hardly a hobby in China (the majority don't have garages and they live in high-rise buildings).

Simon

Maybe so, but fine woodworking is a profession there, much as it is here. Just as Japan and America did, they're finding their roots and restoring their interest in handcraft. I see a restored interest in handcraft among the younger generation here, and I assume it's the same there. The younger crowd seems to understand the difference in quality and prefers it, where many baby boomers seem to hold the opinion that everything is schlock with varying degrees of marketing committed to them. Not just in woodworking but all fields.

[Matt Lau]

As a Chinese (albeit American one), my observation is that the Chinese yearn for the genuine article.

There are so many fakes in China, that some are flying to New York, LA, and SF for antiques and lacquerware.

The mainland Chinese that I see are not stupid, and will pay for quality if they understand it.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I would remind folks of a couple of salient facts. Because American companies and others around the world have farmed out so much manufacturing to China the Chinese have plenty of dollars, marks, pound, lira, yen, and kroner to spend. They have invested it in the very best machine tools available from everywhere in the world. As a result, they now have the most technically advanced manufacturing plants in the world bar none. Greg Portland has hit it right, semiconductor manufacturing measures in millionth of an inch and angstroms and the Chinese have huge wafer fabs. The quality of Chinese products sold worldwide is all about choosing and specifying a quality level and its related price point. The vast majority of the blame for shoddy quality products imported from China must be placed squarely on the companies who placed the orders and imported the stuff, not on the Chinese. The vast majority of Chinese companies are no different that those anywhere else. If you demand quality from them and are willing to pay for it, you will get it. No company anywhere wants to lose customers.

[Simon MacGowen]

I would remind folks of a couple of salient facts. Because American companies and others around the world have farmed out so much manufacturing to China the Chinese have plenty of dollars, marks, pound, lira, yen, and kroner to spend. They have invested it in the very best machine tools available from everywhere in the world. As a result, they now have the most technically advanced manufacturing plants I the world bar none. Greg Portland has hit it right, semiconductor manufacturing measures in millionth of an inch and angstroms and the Chinese have huge wafer fabs. The quality of Chinese products sold worldwide is all about choosing and specifying a quality level and its related price point. The vast majority of the blame for shoddy quality products imported from China must be placed squarely on the companies who placed the orders and imported the stuff, not on the Chinese. The vast majority of Chinese companies are no different that those anywhere else. If you demand quality from them and are willing to pay for it, you will get it. No company anywhere wants to lose customers.

+1 on - The vast majority of the blame for shoddy quality products imported from China must be placed squarely on the companies who placed the orders and imported the stuff, not on the Chinese.

But we customers also have to share part of the blame because when we demand lower prices (when everything else is going up in prices or costs) from the suppliers, we are part of the culprits. Many US brands are no longer made in the US because the local production costs are too high. Chris Schwarz sells his linen products at a premium price because they are stitched and made in the US, but he is not selling in quantity like you see in Walmart or Target or Sears.

When it comes to fine hand tools, I buy only from the US, Canada (mainly Veritas) and the UK, or other smaller tool makers based in North America or Europe. For power tools, most are imported (Asia and Mexico), except the Festool products I own.

Can we still find US-made power tools that are competitive? If you go by the many tool reviews in magazines (WOOD magazine, for example, on power drills, compound miter saws, bandsaws, mortising machines, etc.), it is depressing. Even the Delta saw is not really made in the US in the old sense...My Sawstop is the best in safety and a very good saw but is made in Taiwan while my Bosch power drills have their origin in Mexico. Even my Canon cameras are from Mexico or Taiwan!

Simon

[Dave Lehnert]

[QUOTE=

I was at Costco recently and the rep. told me I no longer could get a US-made TV cuz we've stopped making them. Sigh.

Simon[/QUOTE]

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-10/whats-new-in-television-more-tv-sets-are-being-made-in-the-u-dot-s-dot-a

[Simon MacGowen]

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-10/whats-new-in-television-more-tv-sets-are-being-made-in-the-u-dot-s-dot-a

Though still very small in scale, hope this trend will keep on and spread to other industries.

Simon