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View Full Version : Stradivarious violin stolen/recovered leads to thoughts...



Phil Thien
02-11-2014, 9:56 AM
A few weeks ago a Stradivarius violin was stolen from a musician leaving a concert. He was attacked by Taser-wielding criminals that stunned him and made off with a Stradivarius violin (named the Lipinski after a previous owner/user I believe a century or two ago).

The local media indicated the violin was worth between five and six million dollars. Wow. And that there are approx. 300 Stradivarius violins known to exist. If they are all worth five million, then there are a billion and a half dollars worth of Stradivarius violins in existence. Double wow.

People around the criminals started to put together pieces of the puzzle (in terms of involvement) and then fingered the guys. More than one public figure had stated these violins belong to the world, to the audiences, they belong to the public trust. And in this case, I'd say the reaction by the people close to the criminals would indicate that is true, very encouraging.

I wonder how long would it take for me to train my ears to pick-out a Stradivarius from another violin. My hearing is decent. And the next question would be, if they are easy enough to identify, are they actually better? Would I PREFER the Stradivarius in double-blind tests? Is a double-blind test possible with an instrument (you'd think the musician would know what he is playing)?

Any good books on these instruments? I really enjoyed watching the documentary on Steinway pianos, I think I'd love reading about violins, and anything known about the life of Stradivarius and his contemporaries. Movies/documentaries would also be great.

BTW, to finish the story, the violin was recovered, is in good shape, and was used for a public performance just last night. I also find it encouraging that they got it right back out there, that the owner continues to loan it to the musician, that the public trust continues. It has also opened my eyes to all the public performances put on by these outstanding musicians, I have plans to hear the musician and his violin soon.

[BTW, there is a lot more to the story that I'm not reporting, like the fact that Tasers shoot confetti with the serial number of the weapon, when fired, and the police already had traced the Taser back to the buyer, who was involved. And at least one of the criminals mentioned that it was good they "only" had to stun the musician to get the violin, are you kidding me? Only? The guy fell and hit his head, that is a very violent assault. I hate to think of a world where criminals think stunning us is non-violent.]

Mike Circo
02-11-2014, 10:06 AM
I've had a similar question around the ability to notice the difference in a $5,000,000 violin from one costing much less. That is around $100 bottles of wine and $250 bottles of scotch. I doubt my pallet or ear (in the case of a violin) is good enough to tell. I think it is psycological in many regards. The perception of excellence colors your senses.

A bigger question around the violin is the question about why would anyone carry a five million dollar anything out and about with no protection. If it has historical significance and such incredible value, why just carry it out to your car like any old instrument?

Phil Thien
02-11-2014, 10:13 AM
A bigger question around the violin is the question about why would anyone carry a five million dollar anything out and about with no protection. If it has historical significance and such incredible value, why just carry it out to your car like any old instrument?

I don't think he does any longer. At the minimum, he will be escorted by others. I'm sure this latest incident caused many people with particularly valuable instruments to reevaluate their security measures.

Hopefully none of the measures will make it too much more difficult for the public to enjoy fine musicianship.

Larry Browning
02-11-2014, 10:20 AM
A bigger question around the violin is the question about why would anyone carry a five million dollar anything out and about with no protection. If it has historical significance and such incredible value, why just carry it out to your car like any old instrument?

I would think that something so rare and valuable would have limited value to a thief. Who would buy it from him? It would be a very short list. And therefore the number of thieves wanting steal it would also be short.

terry mccammon
02-11-2014, 10:38 AM
I cannot play a musical instrument but I have had the opportunity to talk about such things with a few members of the Chicago Symp. They are very clear that yes there is a difference between the great instruments and the very good.

I will say that while I will not pay for it, there is a significant difference between some (but not all) scotches at the serious price points and what I am willing actually purchase with my money. You can tell, it is better and whether it is worth it or not is up to the buyer. I am too cheap.

Phil Thien
02-11-2014, 11:06 AM
I would think that something so rare and valuable would have limited value to a thief. Who would buy it from him? It would be a very short list. And therefore the number of thieves wanting steal it would also be short.

I suppose there is always a chance a wealthy and shady individual would pay to have such an instrument stolen, but if you have enough money to entertain that notion, you may as well just buy one.

At the very least, you still have to protect yourself from stupid criminals that are too dumb to know they won't be able to sell the instrument anywhere.

Larry Browning
02-11-2014, 11:22 AM
At the very least, you still have to protect yourself from stupid criminals that are too dumb to know they won't be able to sell the instrument anywhere.

That is true to a certain extent, but is it really my fault I got robbed because I left my door unlocked? Is the criminal less guilty because I made it easier for him? I just really hate blaming anyone or anything other than the criminal for a crime .

Mel Fulks
02-11-2014, 11:38 AM
The better instruments can heard in the cheap seats ,so power is one quality. The prices have been run up by corporations buying them as investments ,I have friend who considers that evil. I don't see any difference from a stamp collector who only uses email. Some have stolen instruments to PLAY them. There was a deathbed confession from a professional violinist who had stolen a Cremonese violin and performed with it for decades.

Erik Loza
02-11-2014, 11:47 AM
Seriously: Where did these clowns think they were going to be able to sell this thing? Pawn Stars?

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Michael Weber
02-11-2014, 12:26 PM
Interestingly, there is a wood story connection to violins of that age. Had something to do with the age of the wood when it was harvested having grown to maturity during a very cold period in history (mini ice age?). Thus the tight dense growth rings lending a unique charismatic sound. My daughter plays the violin and everything about them is fascinating. There is a remarkable difference in tonal qualities of violins even those made at the same time by the same maker using similar wood. It's also possible to change tonal qualities somewhat by moving the sound peg internal in the instrument. Lots of scientific studies have been done trying to exactly pinpoint why the Strads are so remarkable. The wood explanation makes the most sense to me.

Ernie Miller
02-11-2014, 12:46 PM
There have been several double blind tests concerning violins. Here's a video of a recent one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtlTJkbUqkA) I doubt that I could spot the Strad with any consistency, but I was privileged to hear a Strad cello played from about 5 feet away and the sound, especially in the bass, was amazing.

Rick Potter
02-11-2014, 1:12 PM
Let me put it this way. Stradivarius is to musicians as Festool or Altendorf is to woodworkers :D .

Rick Potter

John Coloccia
02-11-2014, 1:54 PM
There have been a few tests. Modern violins are almost universally chosen as sounding better. I've said this many times: In my opinion, the best instruments that have ever been made are being made right now, today.

Adam Cruea
02-11-2014, 2:29 PM
Having been a musician, I can certainly tell you that yes, you can tell certain families of instruments by their tones. Anything made of wood will have different tones depending upon quality, where the wood is harvested, etc. Some lines of instruments, depending on quality (amateur, professional, semi-professional) also use different woods, period.

Are instruments made today with the technology of today better? Probably, yes, as you can have very good consistency with manufacturing processes. I remember going to the Fox factory to watch bassoons being made, and it is very awesome to watch. I got to play a couple of different bassoons, and there's even a difference in feel between the different time periods the instruments were made as well as tone and other such things. The best I ever played was a Heckel from Germany, made of Tiger Maple I believe. My college instrument was made of Sugar Maple from Renard (a division of Fox).

Even back in 1998, the student version was $7500. The Heckel was something along the lines of $50,000, and a Heckel I heard from 1980 which sounded fairly different than both others was around $45,000.

[edit]And for the people asking. . .when it comes to things like this, you don't steal it to flip a profit (and most common thieves realize this). You steal it out of appreciation of the craft and the item. Find a dumb thief, pay them a pittance to steal it, they give it to you, and you get a masterpiece for much cheaper. Can you broadcast out that you have it and show it off? No, but that's not the point of owning it. The point is to appreciate it.

Mike Henderson
02-11-2014, 2:35 PM
I would think that something so rare and valuable would have limited value to a thief. Who would buy it from him? It would be a very short list. And therefore the number of thieves wanting steal it would also be short.
Larry's exactly right. Musical instruments at that level - and there are other famous makers besides Antonio Stradivari - simply cannot be sold illegally. The sale or ownership would attract too much attention. The only thing the owner could do would be to hide it away. And that, of course, makes it somewhat safe for a musician to carry the instrument around without much protection.

There are stories of musicians who have left extremely valuable instruments in a taxi or on a train. The musician is frantic but the instrument is almost always returned.

Mike

[My wife is a professional musician (cello)].

Mike Circo
02-11-2014, 2:46 PM
There are stories of musicians who have left extremely valuable instruments in a taxi or on a train. The musician is frantic but the instrument is almost always returned.].

Rachel Barton comes to mind. Pulled under a commuter train and lost a leg trying to save her violin that was caught in the doors.
Tragic, but she was lucky to be saved by other commuters.

Ernie Miller
02-11-2014, 2:52 PM
It's never safe to carry a valuable instrument around without protection. The thief may have no idea that he's stealing a valuable instrument. He may be hoping to get 100 bucks at a pawn shop for it. As the perceived worth of the stolen item goes down, the chances for abuse and/or damage go up. Why would someone take that chance?

Ken Fitzgerald
02-11-2014, 2:54 PM
A trained musical ear can definitely tell the difference between a great instrument or voice and just a good one.

The market for such a valuable and unique thing would be small but it is out there. Think of the famous art pieces that disappeared and reappeared decades after WWII or were stolen the 50's or 60's and reappeared decades later. There are those out there that are wealthy and want to collect.

Eric DeSilva
02-11-2014, 4:35 PM
There have been a few tests. Modern violins are almost universally chosen as sounding better. I've said this many times: In my opinion, the best instruments that have ever been made are being made right now, today.

You are undoubtedly right. But I also wonder if there might be a psychological factor at play too--might a musician play better on a Strad because it represents something intangible yet important to him/her? Maybe because they feel like they are holding history in their hands, or maybe they feel like they have to live up to its reputation?

Larry Browning
02-11-2014, 4:54 PM
They could hold it for ransom I suppose. The ransom note might read, "Give me 2 million dollars in unmarked bills by midnight or I'll run it through a meat grinder and send you the pieces!"

John Coloccia
02-11-2014, 4:58 PM
You are undoubtedly right. But I also wonder if there might be a psychological factor at play too--might a musician play better on a Strad because it represents something intangible yet important to him/her? Maybe because they feel like they are holding history in their hands, or maybe they feel like they have to live up to its reputation?

Oh, of course. Making music is generally a very touchy-feely, imprecise thing. That's why the double blinds are so important for stuff like this. I've no doubt that people play better when they think they sound better. I know I do. I think it's Alfred Brendel that once said in an interview that he uses a vibrato technique on the piano not because it actually does anything (which it doesn't), but because it's a psychological cue to the audience and they hear it anyway.

And now for a little distraction, speaking of piano vibrato....check out an instrument called the Ondes Martenot. Very cool, pretty rare, and art deco styling. :) I don't have a bucket list, but if I did, owning one of these would be on it.

David Weaver
02-11-2014, 5:09 PM
In my opinion, the best instruments that have ever been made are being made right now, today.

I agree. As a sometimes piggish buyer of things, less familiar with violins but more so with guitars, there are still plenty of builders who will build something as good as you can bear to hear if you have the pocket for it, and quite often, a stripped down version of perfect (to me) really doesn't cost that much.

Rarity and exclusivity have driven a lot of folks to prefer something once they know what it is. If you put a stradivarius in a room full of accomplished amateur violin players with an identical setup to a newer instrument (if that's possible) and told them it was from an unknown late 1800s maker (to explain away its patina) I doubt anyone would make a big deal about it. Nobody would have told them to.

Jim Matthews
02-11-2014, 5:25 PM
There have been a few tests. Modern violins are almost universally chosen as sounding better. I've said this many times: In my opinion, the best instruments that have ever been made are being made right now, today.

Amen, Reverend.
The difference is rarity, hence the perceived value.

It's not so much how good something is, as the willingness of a collector to pay that determines price.

I'm a reed player. I can say (with some minor quibble) that the hard rubber clarinet I have that was made in China
to the specifications of the designer of my hideously expensive clarinet is an acoustic and mechanical twin.

It's less than 1/8th the retail price.

It really comes down to the fit and finish at the last, and the skill of the builder in bringing it all together.
http://www.wieniawski.com/prize_winners_12_international_violin_making_compe tition.html

There's a local maker, just starting out after his Armed forces tour ended - studying at the bench
of a founding member of the North Bennet Street school violin making and repair program.

His first efforts (a cello and viola deGamba built for his young wife) are promising.

The makers of today's violins have capacious knowledge, young eyes and access to exceptional materials.

Mel Fulks
02-11-2014, 5:36 PM
Heifetz and others have owned more than one top notch instrument and chosen which one to play based on the music to be played. Or their mood. Be assured Heifetz could tell one violin from another. He corrected students who were VERY slightly off pitch. Playing at top level takes lots of time and great instruments provide inspiration and become friend and muse. Why shouldn't the ear of the performer be indulged as well as the audience? There are many second tier instruments that sell for tens of thousands based on opinions of dealers. Some of their attributions are pretty weak. Before the tax laws were tightened up someone giving a violin to a college could make more money than selling the thing could.

glenn bradley
02-11-2014, 5:37 PM
I would think that something so rare and valuable would have limited value to a thief. Who would buy it from him? It would be a very short list. And therefore the number of thieves wanting steal it would also be short.

My thoughts as well. Ok, I now have a very famous, multi-million dollar violin. Where do I fence it?

Eric DeSilva
02-11-2014, 5:43 PM
Oh, of course. Making music is generally a very touchy-feely, imprecise thing. That's why the double blinds are so important for stuff like this. I've no doubt that people play better when they think they sound better. I know I do. I think it's Alfred Brendel that once said in an interview that he uses a vibrato technique on the piano not because it actually does anything (which it doesn't), but because it's a psychological cue to the audience and they hear it anyway.

Reminds me of Glenn Gould's Steinway CD 318 with the cracked plate that he still insisted on using.

Andrew Hughes
02-11-2014, 5:50 PM
They could hold it for ransom I suppose. The ransom note might read, "Give me 2 million dollars in unmarked bills by midnight or I'll run it through a meat grinder and send you the pieces!"
Now that was the funniest thing I have read in a long time.here on the creek.Thanks Larry

Greg Portland
02-11-2014, 5:54 PM
You are undoubtedly right. But I also wonder if there might be a psychological factor at play too--might a musician play better on a Strad because it represents something intangible yet important to him/her? Maybe because they feel like they are holding history in their hands, or maybe they feel like they have to live up to its reputation?
They may not play any better but they may *feel* that they're playing better. Also, the audience gets a good dose of the placebo effect (ooh, I'm listening to a Strad, this performance must be great). There's a reason they write about the soloist's instrument in the program...

Jim Matthews
02-11-2014, 6:02 PM
The money, cachet, limp law enforcement and bragging nouveau riche are in China.

I doubt that there's a demand, or resale market for this sort of thing in the Arab speaking world.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/milwaukee-got-it-right-on-violin-theft-but-what-about-next-time-b99202259z1-244798371.html

Jesse Busenitz
02-11-2014, 6:38 PM
Very interesting! I have to agree with most, in that some of the best instruments are being built today. With all the technology we have today we can determine that we need to carve that last little .001" shaving in a 1/4" area..... Granted I do think instruments sound better after they've been broke in, or played for a while. I'm not into violins but I am an avid mandolin player, and find the Gibson F5 mandolins made under the supervision of Loyd Loar in the early to late 20's very interesting, which command a very hansome price being the "Strads" of mandolins. http://mandoweb.com/Instruments/Gibson-Lloyd+Loar+F-5+Master+Model+signed+March+31,+1924-1924/2101 New ones still surface occasionally which is always exciting, as there were only a couple hundred made. But like everyone's said theres not a huge market for something that famous...

Jesse Busenitz
02-11-2014, 6:48 PM
.............When they've been stolen. Edit is not working

Pat Barry
02-11-2014, 7:00 PM
There have been a few tests. Modern violins are almost universally chosen as sounding better. I've said this many times: In my opinion, the best instruments that have ever been made are being made right now, today.
This is always a matter of who is doing the listening, right? I mean, you are a musician - do you like the classic Marshall sound? To my old buddies it sounded better. Was it better? There was no convincing them otherwise although there were certainly 'cleaner' and more authentic tone reproducers available to them. They liked the sound of the tubes. This is a no win argument.

Mel Fulks
02-11-2014, 7:52 PM
Some mentions about modern instrument models that imply that all of that model are the same. Maybe they are. I don't know. I heard an interesting program about piano tuners. Five concert grand Steinway pianos were set up , (I think in Steinway factory ,but not sure,don't remember) for Rubenstein to choose which one he wanted to use for his concert. No claim was made by Steinway that they were all the same. Indeed they know they are all different. He tried the first one ,declared it perfect and declined to try the others. Some of the great pianists have their own tuners who travel with them. The demands of serious classical musicians are just different from those of popular musicians .

John Coloccia
02-11-2014, 8:21 PM
Some mentions about modern instrument models that imply that all of that model are the same. Maybe they are. I don't know.

Maybe there's some instrument or builder somewhere that this is true for, but I don't know him. I can't build two of anything that sound the same.

Ernie Miller
02-11-2014, 9:44 PM
Some mentions about modern instrument models that imply that all of that model are the same. Maybe they are. I don't know. I heard an interesting program about piano tuners. Five concert grand Steinway pianos were set up , (I think in Steinway factory ,but not sure,don't remember) for Rubenstein to choose which one he wanted to use for his concert. No claim was made by Steinway that they were all the same. Indeed they know they are all different. He tried the first one ,declared it perfect and declined to try the others. Some of the great pianists have their own tuners who travel with them. The demands of serious classical musicians are just different from those of popular musicians .

Many years ago, a small group of piano techs (myself included) were invited by Steinway to a technical meeting with Franz Mohr, who was the head Steinway technician/concert tuner. The meeting took place in the basement at Steinway Hall which is across the street from Carnegie Hall. The basement is where the concert grands are kept that are made available to pianists playing in Carnegie Hall and other venues in NY. As the technical meeting concerned techniques for voicing the concert grand, Mr. Mohr asked us to play each of the pianos (there were about a dozen of them), paying particular attention to the piano at the end of the line which was the piano always played by Horowitz. The piano sounded terrible! - like a bag of rocks hitting the strings. Mr. Mohr explained that the hammers on that piano were filed down to little more than nubs so that the piano's tone would carry to the upper reaches of Carnegie Hall. As a result, the piano, which sounded totally harsh in a small room, sounded wonderfully in a big concert hall. To this day, when I hear a video of Horowitz playing on that piano, I can hear how harsh the tone was/is. While it sounded great in a concert hall, its harshness always came through on recordings. Concert pianists don't judge and select pianos using the same criteria used by the general public.

David Weaver
02-11-2014, 10:11 PM
Maybe there's some instrument or builder somewhere that this is true for, but I don't know him. I can't build two of anything that sound the same.

As george what he does with the violins that are a little off and sound like duds. I asked him that once :)

Mel Fulks
02-11-2014, 10:24 PM
David,the ones that ones that don't sound Italian are put in the French pile.

Brian Ashton
02-12-2014, 7:24 AM
There have been a few tests. Modern violins are almost universally chosen as sounding better. I've said this many times: In my opinion, the best instruments that have ever been made are being made right now, today.

But those violins aren't 300 + years old...

David Weaver
02-12-2014, 8:47 AM
David,the ones that ones that don't sound Italian are put in the French pile.

I thought that pile was only for the ones that had a white flag on the back? :)

David Weaver
02-12-2014, 8:47 AM
But those violins aren't 300 + years old...

Exactly...you can't be as exclusive if another friend can call up your maker and get the same thing made.

Greg Portland
02-12-2014, 4:09 PM
Many years ago, a small group of piano techs (myself included) were invited by Steinway to a technical meeting with Franz Mohr, who was the head Steinway technician/concert tuner. The meeting took place in the basement at Steinway Hall which is across the street from Carnegie Hall. The basement is where the concert grands are kept that are made available to pianists playing in Carnegie Hall and other venues in NY. As the technical meeting concerned techniques for voicing the concert grand, Mr. Mohr asked us to play each of the pianos (there were about a dozen of them), paying particular attention to the piano at the end of the line which was the piano always played by Horowitz. The piano sounded terrible! - like a bag of rocks hitting the strings. Mr. Mohr explained that the hammers on that piano were filed down to little more than nubs so that the piano's tone would carry to the upper reaches of Carnegie Hall. As a result, the piano, which sounded totally harsh in a small room, sounded wonderfully in a big concert hall. To this day, when I hear a video of Horowitz playing on that piano, I can hear how harsh the tone was/is. While it sounded great in a concert hall, its harshness always came through on recordings. Concert pianists don't judge and select pianos using the same criteria used by the general public.
Pianomania is a film that shows this selection and tuning process in great detail.

Ken Fitzgerald
02-12-2014, 4:27 PM
The subject of what sounds good or which sounds better is subjective. It's a matter of personal opinion based on what one hears and what one perceives as sounding better.

Frequency and pitch can be accurately measured. The ability of a musical device to reproduce those frequencies and pitches can be measured.

Whether or not they are appreciated by a listener is subjective. What sounds beautiful to one person may sound terrible to another. Though an educated listener may be more qualified to make an opinion on an instruments accuracy of pitch and frequency, they don't have an advantage as to what sounds better. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder.

It should be no surprise that pianos are tuned differently for small and large music halls.

A lot of well known popular bands of different genres use spectrum analyzers to calibrate and setup their PA systems to a given performance area in an effort to perfect both their vocal and instrumental sound.

william watts
02-12-2014, 4:47 PM
I've had a similar question around the ability to notice the difference in a $5,000,000 violin from one costing much less. That is around $100 bottles of wine and $250 bottles of scotch. I doubt my pallet or ear (in the case of a violin) is good enough to tell. I think it is psycological in many regards. The perception of excellence colors your senses.

A bigger question around the violin is the question about why would anyone carry a five million dollar anything out and about with no protection. If it has historical significance and such incredible value, why just carry it out to your car like any old instrument?

A stradivarious is the standard to which all other violins aspire. If you can't tell the difference between a strad and another type, then that 2nd is a successful violin. Like a large surface plate is the standard, but your work bench top is ok.

David Weaver
02-12-2014, 5:05 PM
It may be a standard like a pre-war Martin D-45 is a standard. The same thing is true there, there's a lot of talk from people about how pre-war banjos and guitars are opened up and can't be matched by modern instruments, but I'd imagine that visual confirmation is also needed when played against a good modern custom guitar.

I wouldn't be surprised to find someone unable to tell a new $15,000 violin from a vintage strad. It's sort of like a session guitarist playing hendrix. If the session guitarist is interested in playing it the same way, they will do it. But hendrix set the standard like stradivarius did. I think if the instruments being compared are very good modern violins (or even superb violins a century old) vs. stradivarius violins and people can't tell the difference, I'm not surprised.

Mel Fulks
02-12-2014, 5:11 PM
We all understand slow computers . Instruments can be slow and fail to spit out all the info fed in....What beautiful imagery!
If you can play fast you need quick response. There are a number of quality traits that the music might require of an instrument.

Rick Potter
02-12-2014, 7:23 PM
Well, I can scratch that off my bucket list. I have now seen Stradivarius and Hendrix in the same sentence. :eek:

Rick Potter

Ernie Miller
02-12-2014, 8:02 PM
It should be no surprise that pianos are tuned differently for small and large music halls.



I don't know that they're tuned differently, although concert technicians are usually more skilled. However, they are certainly regulated and voiced differently. A concert grand piano, when used in a first class concert, is regulated to its optimum performance level, which means it's right on the edge between fantastic and failure. It may retain that level of performance for a very brief period of time. Pianos meant for home use are regulated to play well over the long haul as most are seldom, if ever, re-regulated.