Using waterstones to flatten chisels and plane irons

[Andrew Fleck]

I have the Shapton 1000, 2000, and 8000 glass stones and like them a lot for sharpening. (thanks again Jim) I usually just use the 1000 and 8000 and that seems to work well for me. What I don't like is using this combination to flatten chisels and plane irons. I think it takes too long on the 1000. This leads me to believe that I should be using something coarser.

What do you guys think of adding a Shapton 500 to get the blade flat and then jumping up to the 1000? I was also thinking of adding a Shapton 5000 to use between the 2000 and 8000 so I don't have to spend as much time on the 8000. I don't see my accumulation of chisels and plane irons slowing down any time soon, so the need to flatten will always be there.

[Noah Wagener]

I have read that a low grit water stone gets out of flat real fast. I have tried loose 90 grit silicon carbide from Veritas on a steel bar but it dulls real fast. Maybe diamond paste? I got a cut off of steel from a yard for free. Derek Cohen has made lapping plates out of old plane bottoms.

[john zulu]

I have used Shapton 120 and 320 for flatten. Works well. If the chisel was chipped. Use the 120 works very fast. No kidding.

After heavy use, you can use the Shapton 1000 if there was a slight nick. If the edge crumbling *reflecting light.* use the 2000.

[Andrew Fleck]

I have read that a low grit water stone gets out of flat real fast. I have tried loose 90 grit silicon carbide from Veritas on a steel bar but it dulls real fast. Maybe diamond paste? I got a cut off of steel from a yard for free. Derek Cohen has made lapping plates out of old plane bottoms.

I would think you should still get a minute per side or so. Flattening a stone isn't that a big of a deal to me, I do it a lot. Probably too much. I've used sandpaper in the past, but I have a tendency to round edges when I do that. I'm more comfortable with waterstones, but if they aren't worth using for initial flattening I will try something else.

[David Weaver]

Norton 3x stuck down uniformly with adhesive to a granite or glass substrate. Loose diamonds are also good, but only worth pursuing if you're going to do a lot of flattening of very bad things.

[Noah Wagener]

I have only used a King 250 which is a different animal than the Shaptons. It wore completely out in a couple months but i was using it in lieu of a grinder.It was much faster than an extra coarse diamond plate and that plate was dished.On Tools for Working Wood they mention that the lowest grit Chosera is not "uncomfortably soft" like other coarse water stones. But you may like having a one brand system.

I do not think you need a stone between 2,000 and 8,000.

[Noah Wagener]

I wanted to see if i remembered correctly what they said about the Chosera and i found this:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-SFP200/Steel_Flattening_Plate_(Kanaban) if you are interested.

[dan sherman]

What do you guys think of adding a Shapton 500 to get the blade flat and then jumping up to the 1000? I was also thinking of adding a Shapton 5000 to use between the 2000 and 8000 so I don't have to spend as much time on the 8000. I don't see my accumulation of chisels and plane irons slowing down any time soon, so the need to flatten will always be there.

Go lower!

Right now I'm using a 240 grit Sigma Power Select II to start the flattening process, and at times I have still wanted to go faster. I plan on making a belt grinder some time this year, just for this reason. Personally I think you need a range of stones to make back flattening fast. My current stable of stones are as follows.

1. 240 Sigma Power Select II
2. 1000 Sigma Power Select II
3. 5000 Naniwa Super Stone
4. 8000 Naniwa Super Stone
5. 13000 Sigma Power Select


at some point in the future I want to replace the 5k and 8k SS with 3k, 6k, & 10K Sigma Power Select II, just because i love how fast the select IIs cut.

[David Peterson]

I have the Shaptons and they work really well for me. If something needs a lot of flattening, 220 wet/dry sandpaper on granite. Coarser if something is really bent out of shape. From the 220, I can go to the 1000 Shapton. Real easy. I try not to use disposable stuff but I don't go through that much paper - once flattened, always flattened. (I also sometime reach for a coarse oilstone that's around).

[Andrew Fleck]

I wanted to see if i remembered correctly what they said about the Chosera and i found this:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-SFP200/Steel_Flattening_Plate_(Kanaban) if you are interested.

Thanks for the link. That stuff looks interesting, but I already have a granite plate, ws3000, float glass, 2 grinders, and now waterstones! I'm trying to simplify my sharpening process and get really good at one, rather than average at all. I like waterstones the best, but it's looking like rough flattening may be better suited for something else.

[Andrew Fleck]

I have the Shaptons and they work really well for me. If something needs a lot of flattening, 220 wet/dry sandpaper on granite. Coarser if something is really bent out of shape. From the 220, I can go to the 1000 Shapton. Real easy. I try not to use disposable stuff but I don't go through that much paper - once flattened, always flattened. (I also sometime reach for a coarse oilstone that's around).

That's good to know. I was wondering what grit paper to go to before I jumped to the 1000. I may give paper another chance with the norton 3x that David suggested.

[David Peterson]

Andrew, you also don't need any adhesive to keep sandpaper down to a granite block. Spray water on the (clean) granite, lay the paper, then another spray on that. It may move at first but once it lays flat it will stay down quite well. And no cleaning up of spray adhesive. I've devised some stretchers on either end of my granite block that capture the edges of the sandpaper for longer life (the paper will curl after use without those).

[David Weaver]

Water is OK, but you will still get some dubbing. spray adhesive with no bubbles under it on a granite or glass substrate will allow a lot of pressure with no dubbing. The adhesive doesn't have to be used that heavily, it just has to be used uniformly.

To get the paper off, just keep a junk chisel around and literally lift the corner and run the chisel down the length as you pull it. It's very easy to change that way. I don't necessarily bother to use a junk chisel for that, just any sharp chisel.

When I have used 3x, I have gone from 100 grit to a 1000 grit shapton without issue. Any aggressive medium stone will follow it fine, especially if the last strokes on the paper are on paper that's worn in some before you change it.

The only thing better than the 3x is loose diamonds, but loose diamonds are not necessarily faster than fresh paper - they are just more durable if you are going to do really heavy work (like removing pitting from a plane iron).

[David Wong]

I use Scotch Spray Mount adhesive, which allows the sandpaper sheet to be easily removed. The residue is cleaned off the granite using mineral spirits or acetone.

[David Weaver]

Same here. I think I bought a can of 3m 77 or something too strong a while ago. it still comes off with the chisel, but next time if I ever run the can out, I'll get the weakest spray adhesive on the rack.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

When I have used 3x, I have gone from 100 grit to a 1000 grit shapton without issue. Any aggressive medium stone will follow it fine, especially if the last strokes on the paper are on paper that's worn in some before you change it.


Last time I tried that, rehabbing some old blades, I still had a heck of a lot of dubbing to remove when I got to the stones. It was a pain in the rear!

I wonder if my granite substrate wasn't that flat, or if it was a matter or technique, or maybe I grabbed a different paper from the drawer. . .

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Unless you're really heavy handed, I've found stencil adhesive to work quite well for this, back when I used sandpapers to sharpen. Enough tack, but easy to remove when you needed.

[David Weaver]

Last time I tried that, rehabbing some old blades, I still had a heck of a lot of dubbing to remove when I got to the stones. It was a pain in the rear!

I wonder if my granite substrate wasn't that flat, or if it was a matter or technique, or maybe I grabbed a different paper from the drawer. . .

Paper must've been moving some, or not totally adhered uniformly, or maybe some other subtle difference. I've always rubbed the adhesive around so that it's uniform. I do like loose diamonds a little better because there's no chance of any such issues, and there's no point where they "gave up" and stopped cutting. A quick sprinkle keeps things going. The downside of diamonds is that once in a while, the substrate needs to be flattened if the diamonds are very coarse diamonds. You can see when lapping the substrate that it will wear hollow in both length and width, but it takes a long time for that to occur.

If the dubbing is steep and just at the edges, it's probably paper moving. then something else.

[Jim Koepke]

I have some coarse stones that are seldom used due to how fast they wear.

For fast and heavy metal removal my preferred method is abrasive paper adhered to a piece of granite. My Veritas® Mk.II power sharpening system is also sometimes used but it tends to create a lot of heat due to the speed of the metal removal. I can get a blade warm by hand, but not so warm as requiring to take time to let it cool.

One needs to take care and avoid rocking the blade during the process. The adhesive needs to be able to hold the sheet to the surface without any movement as the blade is passing over it.

My granite came from a monument maker and is a little over 4' long. I mostly use 80 grit adhesive backed roll paper. I also have some 220 and 360 grit roll stock.

Flattening a back goes pretty fast and then it is usually quick work for the 1000 grit water stone.

jtk

[Andrew Fleck]

You guys were right. Paper on a granite plate did the trick quickly. I picked up a can of Loctite light spray adhesive and stuck the paper down with that. I was relying on water to hold it down before and I was getting dubbing on the sides. I used paint thinner to wipe the plate off between sandpaper changes and it took the residual adhesive off with ease. For anybody reading this that may be new to flattening I did learn that on my narrow chisels (under 1/2") I tend to rock them ever so slightly when I go back and forth on the paper. This has the opposite effect of what I am trying to achieve. To stop this I only move the small chisels in one direction to flatten. I don't know if this makes sense but, I push the chisel down the length of the paper and stop. I then pick it up and return it to the starting point and do the same thing over and over until it is flat. I don't have to do this on chisels that are larger. I just go back and forth on the paper.

Thanks for all of the input on this thread. You guys saved me some money.

[Jim Koepke]

To stop this I only move the small chisels in one direction to flatten. I don't know if this makes sense but, I push the chisel down the length of the paper and stop. I then pick it up and return it to the starting point and do the same thing over and over until it is flat.

For me with small chisels my strokes are along the axis of the chisel and not side to side. It is important to stop, pick up the chisel and move over a bit to pervent the abrasive wear pattern to influence the shape.

As with all things ymmv.

jtk