Paul Sellers on Coping Saws

[Hilton Ralphs]

Paul Sellers recently posted an article on saws with a brief into on various types of hand saws (non powered) and then went into more detail about the coping saw. His views on whether to push or pull seem to be controversial gauging by the response to his article.

Anyway here is the coping saw part.


Coping saws


A cope is a method we use to shape one molded piece of wood over an adjacent corresponding mould. This always occurs where the internal corners meet. Often people think that the reason for the need for a coped interconnection is that the internal corners may not be at an exact 90-degree corner. This might help in certain situations, but the real reason is to do with shrinkage. Because the wood is fixed to the wall, all shrinkage must shrink in from the outer face toward the wall. Because of this, an internal mitre would shrink, leaving a gap at the meeting corner. A coped joint at the end of a length of wood does not shrink from the meeting surface on the adjacent piece because wood shrinks in its width and not by any noticeable amount in its length. Hence we use a coping saw to make the shaped coping we call a coped joint. We use coped joints in other areas of woodworking too, but only where we use some kind of moulding or shaped components.


It is partly because of this that the coping saw is used on the push stroke. This may seem controversial, and many people, woodworkers, defend the position that coping saws are best used on the pull stroke, but the main reason is that coping cuts are usually through thicker sections of wood such as skirting boards and not the thin stock used say in fretsaw work. Cutting on the pull stroke is more difficult to control and flipping long lengths of skirting board and supporting it for pull cuts is much more problematic too. A coping saw with the teeth facing away from the handle and toward the work means you can see the whole of the work from above. You then have all of the upper body weight and upper arm strength to work the saw very directly into the cut. The reason I say that this is the main reason though is this, working the saw teeth forward into the cut from the face means that you are pushing the teeth into a body of support or backup wood that is therefor ensuring that the prime face has no visual tear-out when done. When I was a young apprentice working with men I never once saw a coping saw with the teeth house on the pull stroke. Just because manufacturers house the teeth in the wrong way doesn’t mean that we have to follow suit. I never saw a saw maker use a saw in the every day of life yet. I likely never will.

[Graham Haydon]

That's the thing, it's not controversial. I have used both with success. Without lot's of workholding to hand I find pulling it from below works well for me and the people who showed me, seem to get better blade life too. However, working from a vice like is shown in the article, if you pull it you spoil the seen face, easy, change the blade. Many ways to skin a cat. The Table saw was new to me though. Did a quick search and they look like oversized compass saws, it would be nice to see one in action.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Many years ago, before I started my manufacturing plant, I began life serving a 4 year apprenticeship (mid 70's), then becoming a journeyman carpenter. I worked with a number of different guys and almost to a "T" for finish work, their coping saws were set up in a pull fashion. Coping was demonstrated to me by several, by setting the molding flat on the saw bench (or whatever handy), kneeling down low enough with your eye level set at molding height and cutting with the blade vertical. It was also said cutting this way helped with holding molding secure as pressure was towards the bench.

Today, I use coping saws almost exclusively for wasting out dovetails, with the stock to be cut in a Moxon style vise. Cutting with the blade on the push stroke clears saw dust on the far side of your stock and not on the front markings, what you are probably watching. Because of this, I would agree with Paul Sellers on setting up the saw as a push.

[Graham Haydon]

Tony, I agree 100%.

[phil harold]

As a previous trim carpenter I am with Tony on the pull stoke

It also has to do with the saw frame
on the pull stroke of a cheap 6 dollar frame the blade stays straight
if you use the push stroke the blade curves...

[peter gagliardi]

With a solid strong frame, you can get a LOT more work done with a push stroke, and it is easier to follow the silhouette of the miter cut with it, with a lot less file work. I was taught the pull stroke in school, but gave it up when I got out in the trade. Time is money, and your only being paid for the end result.

[george wilson]

Coping saws are meant to cut on the pull stroke. I don't know where Sellers got his information,but it is WRONG. Cutting on the push stroke invites the front of the saw frame to bend towards the handle,making the blade curve,bag,and possibly break. When you cut on the pull stroke,the tension is directed right down to the handle,which cannot bend and allow the saw blade to get curved.

You can cut just as fast by pulling on the saw. The handle of the saw should be UNDER the work.

Sellers likely gets by with it by taking light strokes and not letting the blade get "tangled" in the wood. His method is patently just wrong.

I could not have made my marquetry guitar by pulling on the fret saw. Having the handle beneath the work allowed the saw dust to exit from underneath the cut,keeping the line I was sawing on nice and clear and unobstructed. I was using jeweler's saw blades,and they certainly would have broken if I tried cutting on the push stroke. The coping saw is just a stronger framed type of fret saw. NONE of them have had a frame strong enough to totally resist bending if used on the push stroke. Technique allows cutting on the push stroke,but the saw is not made to be used that way.

Now,removing wood between dovetails is not a precision operation. You are just getting the bulk of the waste wood out. It doesn't matter too much which way you want to cut,just so you don't get too forceful,and allow the saw teeth to get snagged in the wood,causing bowing and breakage. It is really not the kind of operation the coping saw was invented to do. I do not use a coping saw to waste away dovetail wood because the cut my dovetail saw makes is thinner than that a coping saw blade. I have just chiseled away waste wood. I do not want to screw up my accurate dovetail saw cuts.

[David Weaver]

His views on whether to push or pull seem to be controversial gauging by the response to his article.

I kind of figured he draws heat just because he makes specific conclusions about things that don't need them. Anyone with some sense can decide whether they want to push or pull their coping saw based on what they're doing. I sure wouldn't want to use a coping jack at eye level with a saw that is to be pushed from below. But I'll push them when cutting dovetails.

I think he intends to draw heat, like a wrestler does - to get attention. Heat fills the seats.

[george wilson]

David,you'd better start wearing padded pajamas if you want to sit in a hot seat.

[Alan Caro]

Hilton Ralphs,

Because I'm an atrocious, left-handed craftsman, and have used cheap coping saws to cross cut 2 X 4s, as a fret saw in 1/2" plywood, and cut PVC pipes, I learned that these delightfully adaptable saws can accomplish a lot of tasks. However, in my misuse of said cheap coping saws I learned quickly that there are reasons for pushing and pulling, but that the reasons for pulling far outweigh the one reason for pushing.

The overwhelming reason for pulling is that pushing places friction at varying points along the length of the blade that cause the blade to lose tension because the frame is being slightly bent towards the handle end. This is of course, less if the material is very thin and the blade very sharp, but in my experience was almost constant. This can be experienced with any hand saw except backsaws- pushing friction cause the blade to compress and bind. As George Wilson mentioned, I also don't understand the logic of pushing from the standpoint of covering guide makings with the dust. I also don't find the use of full arm and shoulder weight and having better control pushing as convincing. For one thing, coping saws are usually fairly detailed cuts on lighter material. The best control I can think of if having the work horizontally near eye level and pulling from below with the dust falling under and the cut markings in clear view.

The one use I found in favor of pushing is that if pulling towards an outside, visible face, the surface may splinter out. This only means that cutting needs to be (pulling) from the inside so as not ruin the visible surface. Mr. Sellars may consider pushing "the teeth into a body of support or backup wood that is therefor ensuring that the prime face has no visual tear-out when done", which may be true, but I don't like to rely on an effect that I can't monitor as I go. Plus, I'm quite sure that I could accomplish "visual tear-out" because I used the saw earlier to cut the head off a small bolt,..

I am surprised at the rather dogmatic insistence by Paul Sellars.

Alan Caro



Caro's Law > Every project needs every tool in the shop- plus one.

281973

[Brian Holcombe]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, isn't a coped joint just as susceptible to forming a gap due to contraction in the wood which is faced against the cut edge? My thoughts are that coped joints are easier to create with consistantly good results than a compound miter.

[george wilson]

Nice harpsichord,Allan. Is that one a Flemish style? When did you make that one? It has been a long time since I was concerned with harpsichords other than English ones(being stuck in an English history environment for nearly 40 years.:)) But,the exposed registers on the cheek look Flemish. I can't remember if the French did those,though,on some of their instruments.

I'm glad you are left handed. We can think with both sides of our brains,which is part of why so many artists are left handed.

Brian,coped joints,being made from the solid wood,have no mitered joint,and cannot separate from the parent wood if it shrinks(which almost inevitably happens on wood used in house trim).

About longitudinal shrinkage of wood,there is a GENERAL rule that it shrinks about 1/16 as much as it does cross grain. This,of course,is subject to a myriad of variables in species,etc..

[Steve Voigt]

…I am surprised at the rather dogmatic insistence by Paul Sellars.



If you consider the long list of topics on which he takes dogmatic positions, it's utterly unsurprising. David does a good job of explaining the motivation, I think. If Mr. Sellars ever wrote "hey, whatever works for you," I would instantly drop dead from a heart attack.

P.S. Lovely work in your avatar, Alan.

[Jim Koepke]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, isn't a coped joint just as susceptible to forming a gap due to contraction in the wood which is faced against the cut edge? My thoughts are that coped joints are easier to create with consistantly good results than a compound miter.

It wasn't until I made some molding and tried the miter versus coped on an inside corner that this became clear to me. With mitered corners any gap shows up from every viewing angle. A coped joint has the under piece going beyond the intersection and any gap is not as obvious.

If you have a piece of molding it is fairly easy to check it out for yourself.

jtk

[george wilson]

Oh,I have envisioned a different coping. I referred to the ones beneath my windows,where the shape of the moldings was sawn on the ends of the long strip of moldings under the windows. You refer to the coping method of making a quarter round molding fit another in a corner.

Yes,the coped method is better.

In an effort to minimize the shrinkage,I cut my quarter rounds too long and spring them into place. I am not a trim carpenter,but I had to replace every quarter round in this 1949 house. They had all been removed from the baseboards in the 70's,when apparently,shag carpentry was installed. That was also when some idiot sawed 1 1/2" off the bottoms of every door in the house with a chain saw. I ended up replacing all the doors. Surprising how many doors there are in a house!

[Alan Caro]

George Wilson,

> who has a sharp eye for detail. Yes, those are the protruding registers (controlling the 1 X 8', 1 X 4') and the harpsichord is indeed a Zuckermann Flemish single (very loosely based on the 1643 Andreas Ruckers) that I did in 1991 and then spruced up in 2010 with a bit of refinishing and the lid decoration. I also had to repair a crack at the extreme treble end- where the bridges ended and as I didn't have any soundboard material, I carved slivers of Starbucks stirring sticks -(Basswood or Poplar I think) that matched the soundboard color to glue into the cracks and this worked remarkably well- nearly invisible and were a free bonus with a cappuccino. I had long intended to make a proper Flemish stand with the typical forest of turnings, but never had a lathe in California.

282100282101


Just before doing the Flemish single I practiced on this small triple-fretted clavichord >
282097282098282099

As far as I know, the Flemish relied on Italian instruments for a long while - until the late 16th C., and when they developed their national style, and until about 1710 they used hand stops levers that project through the nameboard and then the levers through the nameboard. The English also had a strong Italian influence and the 1579 Theewes (who went to England from Flandersis) is very Italianate with the inconvenient register controls that are little knobs on the top of the registers and carefully hidden under the jack rail to prevent easy control. It's ironic that English builders went from the Italian hidden stop controls to being among the first (after about 1775-80) to have pedals at the floor level. The late French double manual instruments and those amazing three manual, 5-stringset Hass had knee levers.

Speaking of your work on English harpsichords, were the bentsides always bent from water-soaked planks or were the later ones laminated?

Left-handed people are always noticing other of the left-handed persuasion but after all these years I never noticed you are left-handed- I thought you had three equally useful hands. Yes, there are a lot of advantages to being left-handed and as you say, many artists were. Leonardo DaVinci famously wrote backwards as a kind of code and I can print backward and upside down about as quickly as the ordinary position. I use this technique to frighten clients in meetings. I do many tasks using either hand and for example use a chisel left-handed but a screwdriver right-handed, scissors left, wrenches right. Paint brushes go either but paint rollers always right. The "mixed dominance" of the brain that provides the ambidexterity -though also produces somewhat more in the way of dyslexia. I reverse letters constantly when typing- always writing "form" for "from" and "fro" for "for". > Did you ever make tools or tooling- jigs, that were made to use left-handed?

Speaking of saws with frames, years ago, you made some beautiful frame-saws that had an H-Shaped frame and tensioned the blade with a twisted cord. The tensioning cord had a sort of key that was trapped against the cross member of the H. Was that pattered after Diderot, or did you have old ones around to work from?

Alan Caro

My personal motto > No matter what your wealth, health, or power, the cheapest things in life are free.

[Brian Holcombe]

That makes sense as well. You'd only see the gap looking down the moulding, but a mitre shows the gap to the room.

[phil harold]

It wasn't until I made some molding and tried the miter versus coped on an inside corner that this became clear to me. With mitered corners any gap shows up from every viewing angle. A coped joint has the under piece going beyond the intersection and any gap is not as obvious.

If you have a piece of molding it is fairly easy to check it out for yourself.

jtk


That makes sense as well. You'd only see the gap looking down the moulding, but a mitre shows the gap to the room.

My thoughts are that coped joints are easier to create with consistantly good results than a compound miter.
yup
yup
yup
When the wood shrinks on a coped joint there is only one piece cut that will shrink at the joint
if the wood shrinks an eighth of an inch you only get a gap of an eight with a mitre you get quarter inch gap
and with the cope you can only see the gap from one view
and with coping you can cut the trim longer and then there may never be a gap
when you layout a room for crown you do it so the joints are less visible from entering the room or the focal point
some days you go right to left
others it's left to right

[Jim Matthews]

I think he intends to draw heat, like a wrestler does - to get attention. Heat fills the seats.

The only bad publicity is no publicity.

The mechanics of a bow are pretty simple, skinny blades work best in tension.
It's the same idea behind bandsaws.

This is one of those pointless distractions Mr. Sellers injects into otherwise useful instruction.
I've learned to skip over the digressions that just slow me down.

Most of his stuff works.
Some doesn't.

Knowing the difference takes shop time.

[John Coloccia]

Seems like he's generally trying to be helpful, but he's being a little foolish because he's preaching about something he doesn't seem to know anything about. As others have said, you would normally pull down with a pull saw and that immediately negates all of the arguments about damaging the show face, and visibility of the cut. You have much BETTER visibility without your hand and the frame in the way. Hey, everyone says dopey things from time to time.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Phil, makes perfect sense.

[george wilson]

Alan,your attachment led to "invalid". I'd like to see your attachment if you could fix it. For a Zuckermann kit,that made a pretty decent looking instrument. They came a long way since their first little rectangular cases with a straight bent side. I guess it would have been too much to expect from them that the instrument could have TWO 8 foot choirs and one 4 foot. Question of cost, probably. Or,was it customary for Flemish to have just the one 8' choir? I'm running on memory from over 40 years ago. Actually from 1968. Someone stole my Hubbard book as you know. I don't plan to make any more keyboard instruments as being left handed is a big problem when playing keyboards. Plus,you have to be a glutton for punishment to make harpsichords if you actually MAKE the action and jacks. If I DID think about making one,it would be an Italian pentagonal virginal,which I think are nice little instruments.

Your decorations are what make the Flemish instrument's appearance so much better.


Sorry about the little sidetrack re the coping saw. I do a lot of things wrong myself,but get away with them from being careful. I am mostly self taught,and had to learn most everything about tool use the hard way. Alaska was not exactly the most cultural place to grow up. What I got from college was design and taste development from a very great artist I've mentioned before. My best tool use teacher was the machine shop teacher. But,that had little to do with woodworking.

My point is,you can do things like using the coping saw backwards if you are careful. BUT,I would not insist in teaching others that it was the CORRECT way to use it.

[Bill Orbine]

I'm not sure if anyone wrote this here regarding the quality (aside from wood movement as being discussed earlier) of the cope or miter joint but I'll say this..... For moldings like chair rails, baseboards and crowns attached to sheet rock, another added benefit of a coped joint is that it is more forgiven and easier to make a nice fit. That last piece of crown coped both ends snaps in nicely even if it's a touch too long. Miter joints tends to slow the work down.

I set the blade in coping saw for either push or pull depending on the circumstances... I do, for the most part, prefer the pull stroke.

[lowell holmes]

John,

Have you ever met Paul or seen his work?

I don't subscribe to everything Paul teaches, but I would never say he doesn't know what he is talking about.

[John Coloccia]

John,

Have you ever met Paul or seen his work?

I don't subscribe to everything Paul teaches, but I would never say he doesn't know what he is talking about.

I've not met Paul. I've seen his work. He does beautiful work, no doubt. The idea that a pull saw damages the face of what you're working on is a clear indication that he doesn't know much about how people use them, or if I don't give the benefit of the doubt (which I did) then he's being deliberately deceptive. I don't believe that for a moment. I've enjoyed many of his videos and he seems like a very nice and talented fellow.

Nothing against Paul. I've been wrong once or twice too (maybe even 3 times) and people call me on it...and then I just have to admit, "OK, you're right...I had it completely wrong. Thanks for correcting me." No big deal. I'm not a finish carpenter, so I don't know why and how they do things, but I can tell you that the reasons he gave for not using a pull stroke just aren't really valid. Paul puts himself out there as an expert and a teacher, and I'm sure he is an expert and a fine teacher, but you have to take the compliments along with the criticisms when you say things as an authority that aren't really accurate. It would be a shame if someone read that and didn't realize that you would generally pull from the other side of the board and negate all of the "problems" cited.

[David Weaver]

The only bad publicity is no publicity.


Certainly the worst thing someone could do (someone trying to draw and retain customers) is stop talking at all. The same is true of the youtube folks - they soon find if they are generating revenue from their videos that subscribers expect content all the time, and they'd rather have dull or controversial content rather than none.

But I was serious about the wrestling thing, they knew that the guys who drew heat put more folks in the seats faster than the guys who were face.

That's one of the reasons I had harley race in my avatar for a while. I admire his ability to put people in seats, and he did his best work drawing heat as a heel.

[Adam Maxwell]

I've not met Paul. I've seen his work. He does beautiful work, no doubt. The idea that a pull saw damages the face of what you're working on is a clear indication that he doesn't know much about how people use them, or if I don't give the benefit of the doubt (which I did) then he's being deliberately deceptive. I don't believe that for a moment. I've enjoyed many of his videos and he seems like a very nice and talented fellow.

Agree with everything you wrote, John. The coping saw blades I get (Olson and whatever the local hardware store sells) have so much set that they'll give a fuzzy edge, at least in some woods; maybe he's over-generalizing based on similar observations? Anyway, I set my coping saw up for a push stroke when working vertically-held stock. Same with a frame saw, bow saw, and even a pad saw in some cases. Pull stroke is obviously the only way to work when using a birds mouth to saw horizontal stock!

The argument over which way is better is pretty old, though; it sounds like there was a change to pull stroke in the later 20th c., maybe as coping saws grew weaker or workers grew more hamfisted :). http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/coping-saws-from-bricks-to-fretwork-frogs

More interesting to me is the Félibien plate that Schwarz posted on his blog last week, which shows a marquetry saw set up to cut on the push stroke. http://blog.lostartpress.com/2014/02/05/a-history-of-coping-saws-in-five-paragraphs/

[Jim Koepke]

What bothers me about Sellers' teaching is he seems to make one feel like his is the only way to get to the finish line.

Surely there are folks out there who insist they only need to use 250 grit stones to sharpen their blades because Paul Sellers said so.

Most of us who have worked with others or even on our own know there are multiple ways of doing just about anything.

Paul Sellers could benefit by a few simple words like, "this is one of many ways of doing this" or "your milage may vary."

Of all the "teachers" of woodworking, so far one of my favorites is Peter Follansbee and him saying, "there is nothing new I am teaching here, this is all from people who came before me."

Like Mr. Follansbee almost all I know is from seeing others do it or reading about others doing it.

jtk

[Alan Caro]

Alan,your attachment led to "invalid". I'd like to see your attachment if you could fix it. For a Zuckermann kit,that made a pretty decent looking instrument. They came a long way since their first little rectangular cases with a straight bent side. I guess it would have been too much to expect from them that the instrument could have TWO 8 foot choirs and one 4 foot. Question of cost, probably. Or,was it customary for Flemish to have just the one 8' choir? I'm running on memory from over 40 years ago. Actually from 1968. Someone stole my Hubbard book as you know. I don't plan to make any more keyboard instruments as being left handed is a big problem when playing keyboards. Plus,you have to be a glutton for punishment to make harpsichords if you actually MAKE the action and jacks. If I DID think about making one,it would be an Italian pentagonal virginal,which I think are nice little instruments.

Your decorations are what make the Flemish instrument's appearance so much better.


Sorry about the little sidetrack re the coping saw. I do a lot of things wrong myself,but get away with them from being careful. I am mostly self taught,and had to learn most everything about tool use the hard way. Alaska was not exactly the most cultural place to grow up. What I got from college was design and taste development from a very great artist I've mentioned before. My best tool use teacher was the machine shop teacher. But,that had little to do with woodworking.

My point is,you can do things like using the coping saw backwards if you are careful. BUT,I would not insist in teaching others that it was the CORRECT way to use it.

george wilson,

Thanks for pointing out the invalid attachments- I've replaced them and added a couple more. I don't know how that happened as they appeared to working at the the time.

Yes, the Zuckermanns from the early 70's on were quite good, classically-based designed, replacing the original "Z-Box" with the straight bentside - a pretty nasty device with the sloping cheeks. There was a Flemish Moermans -based that may have been designed by Frank Hubbard, and the French double was designed by William Hyman. Zuckermann did make a Flemish single manual kit that had a very similar configuration to the one I did, called the "5-Octave Concert" that had 2X 8', 1 X 4' and an FF-f''' 5-octave range- and I think lever controlled stops, and there was a Flemish, French, and even a German double with the 2X 8', 1 X 4'. The German double even had the authentic S-shaped doubly bent side. They also had Italian and Flemish virginals and only one English instrument was a wing-shaped spinet of the configuration shown in your Colonial Williamsburg instrument-making film. See > http://www.zhi.net/instr/index1.shtml I think later English harpsichords are almost never reproduced today because- as you know from your Kirckman copy for Colonial Williamsburg, the veneering is so difficult, plus, where can you buy a decent 11" X 18" piece of burl Walnut veneer today? Also, the distinctive lid hinges and catches that were never used on anything else cost $100's.

I like your concept of tools being what they can be made to do, but start with the best technique and get some good results, and then experiment. This is the central feature of what I call "craft intelligence" -the only way craft can evolve is by working through problems and then modifying the tools and techniques the next time- not absolute dogma.

Alan Caro

[Jim Matthews]

"there is nothing new I am teaching here, this is all from people who came before me."

Like Mr. Follansbee almost all I know is from seeing others do it or reading about others doing it.

jtk

Paul said much the same in the course I undertook.

I'm perplexed by the insistence on this, except that for newbies like myself it would confine errors to
the side of the joint hidden by the assembly. Given that all the dovetail joints we made in 9 days
were then planed smooth (on the show face) I suppose that this was to make certain the scored
line wasn't undercut. I'm likewise flummoxed at the brusque delivery.

It's as if there's an attempt to stir the pot.

That's not my style.

The guy can really deliver on his promises, in a classroom setting.

I don't think there's any editing of his online blog, and that's embroiling needless controversy.

******

It's important to understand that Paul Sellers is the opposite of an iconoclast,
he's a conservator of very old methods, and teaches them as he was instructed.

For one, I find that approach pedantic and stilted.

[Mansell Bettez]

What bothers me about Sellers' teaching is he seems to make one feel like his is the only way to get to the finish line.

"I think the information I gave is correct with regard to craftsmen using the push stroke. That does not mean people can’t use either method. The problem comes when everyone says there is only one way." --Paul Sellers comment in his blog post.

:)

[Jim Koepke]

The problem comes when everyone says there is only one way." --Paul Sellers comment in his blog post.

Well then I am remiss for not reading his blog or taking classes from him.

I have only watched a few of his videos. Maybe he is not best represented in the few videos to which I have been directed that has rendered my understanding of his teaching to be tainted.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

I recall my Dad, explaining to me how to cope a joint. He wasn't a carpenter or even very handy. He ran a lumber yard and picked up the how-to from his customers.



Cut a miter
Trace the profile with a pencil line
From the back, follow the line with a slight back cut except at the very top.


Other that a few test cuts, I've never use this much but it stuck with me. Partially, because remember how awkward it was to try to cut from the back. It takes some practice. That's a pull stroke with the handle in back of the piece.

I've watched may hours of Paul Sellers along with Rob Cosman and others. I don't think they've ever steered me wrong intentionally but I also don't automatically follow everything they do. It's all good information but I still need to make the analysis and the decisions about what to adopt and what to pass.

For example, I think the convex bevel sharpening Sellers teaches works. I can see and hear the results as he works but I don't use it. Same for Cosman and his 3 angle method. I prefer the flat grind + micro bevel but I've picked up a little about sharpening from both guys.

[Jim Koepke]

I've picked up a little about sharpening from both guys.

To me, that is the point of watching videos suggested by others. After seeing what others do it is my choice to use whatever part of their technique works in my environment and to discard what doesn't work or seem right for me.

Sometime just one or two sentences may shed light on something that has been elusive, then a technique just clicks into place.

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

"I think the information I gave is correct with regard to craftsmen using the push stroke. That does not mean people can’t use either method. The problem comes when everyone says there is only one way." --Paul Sellers comment in his blog post.

:)

Ernest Scott (Working in Wood) has shown the coping saw used in both push and pull fashions. It is nothing different from the fact that we can use a plane in push or pull strokes. Those who say it is wrong to use a coping saw in one or the other way are wrong themselves.

In the old days (and in some cultures), writing with the left hand was considered wrong.

Simon

[Tom McMahon]

"There are many ways to skin a cat"," how ever works", while I believe these statements are true in general they are misleading. I'm sure I could four square a board with an axe or a wide chisel given enough time but is it the best practice, it would be much faster and easier with a plane. For most procedures and tools there is a best practice and use for a particular result. Yes there are work arounds that work, but usually there is one best use or practice. Because of the flexibility of the frame of a coping saw the best use is the pull cut, can it cut on the push stroke yes but not as well as the pull stroke with a V block for support.

[Warren Mickley]

I have to agree with you, Tom, that many use the "skin the cat" argument to hide clumsy technique. I have used the coping saw both ways for more than 50 years. I cut on the pull stroke when sitting down and my hand is under the work and I cut on the push stroke when standing up and my hand is in front of the work. This way I always see the line easily and the breakout is always on the back side. To use the saw otherwise is clumsy technique. It takes 20 seconds to switch from one direction to the other. I have seen saws that are not stiff enough to cut on the push; I would not recommend a four dollar saw.

[Steve Voigt]

"I think the information I gave is correct with regard to craftsmen using the push stroke. That does not mean people can’t use either method. The problem comes when everyone says there is only one way." --Paul Sellers comment in his blog post.

:)

It's a bit rich for Mr. Sellers to say "the problem comes when everyone says there is only one way," after he has just devoted most of a blog post to insisting that there is only one way! Sort of reminds me of politicians who say something outrageous, then issue a half-hearted apology. Well, the apology is nice, but it doesn't take away the fact that they made the comment in the first place.