Help on run times please

[Chad Fitzgerald]

Ive been approached about a possible BIG job engraving a corporations logo onto premade wood items. If it were to go through it would mean getting a second laser, therefore im curious on run times from different lasers. Ive attached my logo for practice, knowing theirs would be a little different it is the same size and help me get a start/idea of run times.
I am asking if anyone is willing to run the attached logo, on cherry hardwood no finish, and post back the machine, wattage, settings, and time.
This will help me come up with a plan as far as being able to get the job done if it were to go through. Also help me determine which laser would be best to buy, if necessary.
Any help is very much appreciated.
I hope i attached the file correctly. It is saved in version12
Thanks Chad



281659

[Dave Sheldrake]

Depends on numbers Chad but if it's in the thousands then a Galvo, RF if possible but a DC will do it. A gantry machine isn't going to keep up with a Galvo steered laser anytime soon.

Machines from China start at around $7,000 and go upwards.

cheers

Dave

[Chad Fitzgerald]

galvo does make sense Dave, as the number would be 40,000/order. But, i would have a hard time buying from China. I go out of my way to buy everything possible as local as possible, from machines to supplies. That said i was hoping a few people on here would have a few minutes to run the logo attached to get me an idea of the run times. I understand everyone is busy, but i didnt think it would hurt to ask. I havent even ran it myself, will be doing so today.
Currently my "estimates" are it would take approx. 4+ months to complete a run. with a second machine, could cut that in half or better.
chad

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hi Chad,

I'll run it on my gatrys and Galvos today see what come out :)

I'd love to buy locally too but western made Galvo's are expensive for what they are (I have a Vytek) also it's worth remembering very few of the components of Western made machines are actually made here.

There is always the option of somebody like Ray Scott at RabbitLaser? he could probably get hold of a Galvo for you?

The most number of machines I've ever used on one product was 6, efficiency does drop though so doubling from 1 to 2 machines usually gets around a 190% figure, 3 machines 270% etc etc. Chasing 6 machines with 2 of us working them ended up being slower than 5 machines.

The slowest Galvo from China / where-ever will be twice the speed of the fastest Western brand name with 7,000mm per second linear being considered low these days 10,000mm per second is mid range and 12,000 mm on high end machines.

cheers

Dave

[Chad Fitzgerald]

thanks dave, really appreciate it
chad

[Ross Moshinsky]

The one thing to remember about a galvo is load time and how frequently you need to load. On a gantry laser, you may be able to stack 10 items and the run time may be 20 minutes. Meanwhile the Galvo you may only have one item but run time will be only 30 seconds. Obviously the run time is much faster on a Galvo but you have to load and unload the machine every 30 seconds. That may be an issue with how your business is run. Then it might require hiring someone to load and run the machine. That shouldn't be too expensive but it can be a concern. Hiring an employee that cares and does a good job at a relatively low labor rate can be tricky and if you pay them well, then your profit is decreased further. Also one other thing to consider is once the job is done, you have a piece of equipment that may or may not fit your business model in the future. Offloading any Chinese machine may be an issue.

That said, buying a Galvo might be great for your future and hiring another employee to run the Galvo for $10-15/hr while you're doing other work may be a brilliant way to increase your bottom line.

[Glen Monaghan]

I think the usual approach to the frequent reload cycle is to create a sliding stage or rotating table that moves the items into and out of the cutting/engraving area. You either load it up and let it go until all loaded items are finished and reload, or you reload one of the outside slots while an inside slot is being processed. The latter approach doesn't help much with the constant attention problem, but can reduce item-to-item cycle time significantly.

[Paul Phillips]

Chad, depending on what size the pieces are that you're running and how many you can set up to run, it may be worth looking at the ULS superspeed feature or perhaps a dual head machine, I don't know if anyone here has the superspeed feature but apparently ULS have a patented fixture that somehow splits the beam into 2 effectively doubling the engraving speed.
http://www.ulsinc.com/products/features/superspeed/
Paul

[Chad Fitzgerald]

appreciate the ideas everyone. Not sure at this point the size of each piece. 6,8,9" square, in that area.
My initial thoughts (and why im asking for run times) is to have two lasers, i could have 6-12 loaded at one time in my current laser, have that running while i load the other, empty and reload the first while the second laser is running, etc, etc.
That way there is always pieces being engraved, my thinking is that would greatly reduce the overall time since i wouldnt have to add in the "stop time" from loading and reloading. 8 hours of engraving would be true 8 hours opposed to 7 hours engraving and 1 hour of loading/reloading. extra 1 hour per day of actual engraving over 40000 pieces would really add up.
If that all makes sense.
thanks again, curious to see some run times.
chad

[Keith Upton]

What machine are you going to cut/engrave your current work on if both machines are running 8 hours a day for 2 months straight? Sounds like you either need three lasers or your second needs to have a really large work area so you can basically do two or three runs a day with it while you work your other machine.

[Sam Gardner]

Anyone noticed the new GCC H230 machines? They seem to be a galvo mounted onto a xy gantry for high speed marking plus one model has a conveyor for real production setups. Maybe worth a look.

[Chad Fitzgerald]

I have thought of that Keith, having to have 3 lasers, wow that would suck, hehehe.
Actually though, i figured i would try to figure out how much two would do, see if i had enough "down" time on one that would allow me to work on my regular stuff. Last thing i would want to do is turn away regular customers.

[Keith Upton]

I have thought of that Keith, having to have 3 lasers, wow that would suck, hehehe.
Actually though, i figured i would try to figure out how much two would do, see if i had enough "down" time on one that would allow me to work on my regular stuff. Last thing i would want to do is turn away regular customers.

Yes, that would not be good. I'm not sure of the profit margin you are working with here or how much room you have, but sometimes I look at large jobs like this (not in the engraving industry) as simply a way to pay for the machine/tools. I don't look so much at actually making any money on the job, just having it pay for the machine so that that machine can then make money for me in the future with no additional overhead.

In this case if it bought you a laser with a large working area 4x4 or larger, it could actually open up a whole new market for you to work in. where as, buying another "normal" sized laser would get the job done and make you some money, it would not really open up new revenue streams... only increase your thru put in your current stream. Just some things to think about.

[Glen Monaghan]

Depending on your items, you might speed up the process by having two fixture "tables" that you alternate in the machine. While one is processing, you are unloading and reloading the other. When the one in the machine is finished, you just lift it out, set the reloaded one in, and start the next batch. Shampoo, rinse, and repeat... I've found that works quite well when cutting several sheets of parts from baltic birch using a pair of pin tables. While one sheet is getting cut, I can pick out the pieces cut from the previous sheet, remove the waste, register a new sheet on the pin table and, if the sheet is warped, tape it down as needed, and be ready to swap as soon as the current sheet is done. Maybe 10 seconds down time between sheets rather than a couple or a few minutes using only one pin table.

[matthew knott]

Ok, i was using one of our co2 galvos, so I had a play,results are about 20 seconds, but this can be cut down.
This has a baby 30 watt RF laser in it, and our first galvo co2 that we built from bits of ebay 6 years ago. It cost us about $900 in parts :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivBqZi6-4-4&feature=youtu.be

[Chad Fitzgerald]

ok matthew, watching that makes me want one too. thanks for running it. Do Galvos have a large enough bed to have multiples layed out.
Curious, what does a galvo laser go for, 40w, american made, 18x30 bed size. Again just curious
thanks matt

[Dave Sheldrake]

Few Galvos go above 300mm x 300mm (12" x 12") bed size Chad, my Vytek is bigger but has a moving bed that covers the extra size out to 1600mm. (and cost more than the average house) for an 18" x 30" there are few companies that do them, Vytek to special order and maybe 2 or 3 others but expect a $200k+ pricetag at that kind of size.

cheers

Dave

[matthew knott]

Hi Chad, galvos tend to have limited marking areas, if you go bigger (which you can) the spot size of the laser gets bigger and you lose detail. You can use an XY table to simply move the a new part under the marking area. Cost wise is a bit tricky as there are lots of variables but i would take a guess at about $25'000 for a laser that would engrave an area of about 6' x 6' then probably about $6 for an XY table. The only real advantage of galvos is speed an no doubt you can do more with a traditional laser plotter style, but with big orders with lots of parts then they can come into their own!