All for one and one for all! denomitators that is.

[andy photenas]

So i have been doing carpentry frame to finish since i was 14 and im turning 40 this year(eeek).
In my time working with measuring i have made the ppl working with me drop the standard system of measure.

1/16 , 1/8 , 3/16 , 1/4 , 5/16 well this is low lv algebra just about and is in no way helpfull to the job.

Short of joining the rest of the world and learning metric (makes us looks stupid not using it I feel).
What we do is drop the denominator juggling act.

I teach to use ONLY 1/16 , 2/16 , 3/16 ,4/16 , 5/16.

I am curious as to what you all think of this method of measure?
I am aware that many of you are quite a bit advanced compared to me in the trade. I value your opinion so let me know what ya think.

[John Lanciani]

Why? If you're going to bother trying to retrain people why not just go metric and be done with it. No point in fighting convention, and not worth butting heads with the other trades on a jobsite.

[Keith Outten]

There is a mental component involved in a measuring system, its not just as simple as changing a scale for some. I grew up with fractions and I think in fractional units. When I buy fuel for my car I think in gallons and my mind is quick to comprehend the miles per gallon my car consumes.

At my age I would be handicapped if I had to use metric fasteners. I do keep a few in my shop inventory but it slows me down when I have to use them much less drill and tap a hole to fit a metric bolt or screw. On the other hand my inventory of ANSI fasteners would fill up a wheel barrow four or five times over. My machines were all built to ANSI standards, a lifetime of purchasing tools that use a standard I am comfortable using. When I grab a wrench from my toolbox I can identify a 5/8" open end without looking at the size stamp. I have a drawer full of micrometers and dial calipers that are not metric, the new digital instruments are capable of both scales but the older instruments would be a problem. For the life of me I have no idea how large or small a 14 MM wrench is, once again thats the mental part of the equation.

Now add hundreds of drill bits, router bits and other miscellaneous items that exist in my shop that are not metric and the cost to replace them, not to mention the conversion period that would probably put me out of business. I'll stay with the American system till I make my last measurement its just too late for me to adjust to anything else.

Last but not least is a communication problem that exists when someone sends me a drawing in metric units. I send it back.

If I'm stuck in the past and have become a fossil I can live with that :)
.

[Peter Quinn]

Nah, all that math is fun. In the shop I drop the fractions all together and go with decimals. .0625, .125. , .310, etc. Really baffles the framers when your on a job measuring for cabinets and you call out " CAll it 144 and 625" for 12' 5/8" to the guy writing it down. It all falls apart at the 1/32" level. A 1/32" gap on a door joint is HUgE! For framing its irrelevant, for much carpentry is marginal but not insurmountable ime. Most important thing is the guys on your team all speak the same language, and the other trades involved can follow your shops as necessary so pipes and wires wind up in the right place.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

At age 27 I got out of the Navy and into the medical field where nearly everything is metric. I work in fractions, 0.000 (thousandths) and metric. In fact, I used to search for and have tape measures that are both metric and imperial.

[mike holden]

We buy rough wood in quarters - four quarter, five quarter, twelve quarter, etc. American cars are metric, but the steel even when bought from overseas, is in Thousandths of an inch in width, and metric in thickness, and that is a change from "gages", although we still rank electrical wire by gages.
Trying to change the jargon of a trade is difficult.
Anybody in woodworking use "bobs"? Remember the ads for rulers marked in "bobs" that showed up in ww mags a few years ago?
Suggest that you simply learn the jargon for whatever trade you are in or interested in and work with it.
Swimming upstream is for salmon.
Mike

[phil harold]

I know sheetrockers use eighths like you want to use 16ths

They call out the measurements
one measuring what they need,
one cutting the sheetrock

Could work in the shop...

[Prashun Patel]

Blame the Romans.

The worst is the fact that we have 12 months in the solar calendar. SEPTember, OCTober, NOVember, and DECember have lost their meaning. They designate not the 7th-10th months as their name begs, but the 9th-12th months. Julius and Augustus eponymized the 7th and 8th months.

And every king thereafter decided that their forearm was a good standard unit of length or the amount of gold they could hold in their hand was a good standard for weight.

[george newbury]

Just remember a cubit equals six palms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_(unit)) or one and a half Roman feet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Roman_units_of_measurement#Length). (not Pygmy feet, Roman feet)

[Andrew Pitonyak]

If I am about to do a bunch of math, then I convert it to 16ths or 32nds until all of the math is finished. I like to view the final using standards. I frequently do this in Spreadsheets and I use macros that I wrote to convert to/from fractional representation so that I can view it as such and still use it in calculations. (note, I use OpenOffice / LibreOffice rather than MS Excel).

[kent borcherding]

I use tape measures that are both metric and imperial like Ken does -- Peach Tree Tools have them for $6.99.

Works great if you use any metric patterns , also when spacing dowels or shelves , much easier to use metric side of the tape instead of dividing fractions.

[Joe Hillmann]

It seems that if you measure everything to the 16th on some things you are being way more accurate than you need to be and on other things 32nds may be better, maybe even 64ths.

If you are working framing a house usually it isn't worth measuring any more accurately than 1/4 inch. If doing trim work 1/16 may not be accurate enough, Although you could always measure it to the nearest inch longer, cut it , then mark it with a knife to get the exact measurement.

When installing fillers between cabinet faces 1/6 wont be accurate enough.

When ruffing in for plumbing and electrical you often only need to be within a couple inches of the right spot.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Wasn't there a new measuring system advocated a few years ago that eliminated standard fractions for BOBS or something?

[David Helm]

I agree completely with what Keith said!!!!

[Rod Sheridan]

So i have been doing carpentry frame to finish since i was 14 and im turning 40 this year(eeek).
In my time working with measuring i have made the ppl working with me drop the standard system of measure.

1/16 , 1/8 , 3/16 , 1/4 , 5/16 well this is low lv algebra just about and is in no way helpfull to the job.

Short of joining the rest of the world and learning metric (makes us looks stupid not using it I feel).
What we do is drop the denominator juggling act.

I teach to use ONLY 1/16 , 2/16 , 3/16 ,4/16 , 5/16.

I am curious as to what you all think of this method of measure?
I am aware that many of you are quite a bit advanced compared to me in the trade. I value your opinion so let me know what ya think.

Your suggestion to go metric is the best, second is to use whatever fraction you need.

What if you need 7/64"?

Regards, Rod.

[glenn bradley]

I voted to keep all imperial as it is. The last thing I need is another format. To reach the nirvana you seek, go metric. After decades working as a geek, part of what I enjoy in the shop is the imperial fractional system. It must release something in the brain that differs from octal, decimal, and hex. I find it very soothing.

[phil harold]

What if you need 7/64"?
since most tapes only use 16ths after the first foot
so 3/16ths plus would be an option

[Roy Harding]

As a Canadian of a certain age, I was a teenager when the metric system came in. Consequently, I use a mix of units for everyday figuring. When thinking of people's weight, I still think in pounds. When thinking of distance I use kilometres (25 years in the Army cemented that one home), when thinking of liquid measure, I use gallons (imperial gallons, which are bigger than your U.S. gallons).

In the workshop, I work in fractional inches, decimal inches, and metric. My tape measure is both inches and metric. Some of my tool scales are fractional inches, some are metric, and still others are decimal inches. You get used to it. What you want to avoid, if possible, is switching between the systems on the same job. If I start in metric, that's what I use for that entire project, if I start in fractional inches, that's what I use throughout the whole process, etcetera.

Conversion between the systems in the middle of a project is just asking for trouble.

[Daniel Rode]

Maybe I'm weird but I like the quirky imperial based measurement system. It's not easier or more efficient but it's what was used historically for the things I enjoy building. Metric is clearly a better system in those terms but it is far less familiar to me. Oddly enough, I know the decimal conversions for imperial measurements down to 1/8s.

Imperial takes a bit more mental effort, IMO. Not much, mind you, but a little more. What's just a bit less than 3/4"? In your 1/16 system, 11/16s would be a bit smaller than 12/16s. That's easy to use and remember, I guess. But I work to 1/64" and that doesn't work at all. 47/64" is a good distance from 11/16" in my mind.

When I was in the business, we used "a hair" for anything smaller than 1/16". "A hair shy of 3/16" or a "hair over 3/4". If you didn't know every step by 1/16 cold, you couldn't work for me. As far as I was concerned, if you didn't know that, it meant you didn't know anything.

[John Downey]

I'm afraid I do not see any advantage in using 6/16" rather than 3/8", or 12/16" rather than 3/4"

[Jim Rimmer]

When I was a young boy I spent a lot of time with my Grandfather who used the opposite of what you are doing to teach me how to convert fractions. He was a carpenter in the days when auger bits were still in common use. He explained their markings to me and how to convert the number to a size. He often sent me to his truck for a tool and if it happened to be an auger bit he wouldn't send me after a #12; it would be "Go get me a 3.4" bit.".

He also taught me the proper names of tools, how to tell a rip saw from a cross cut saw (handsaws) and how to use the tools.

[phil harold]

When I was in the business, we used "a hair" for anything smaller than 1/16". "A hair shy of 3/16" or a "hair over 3/4".
now which hair is the next question
black brown blonde and red
I always thought red was the finest ...

[Mark Bolton]

Having also worked in the trade since my teens Im wondering if your finding yourself dealing with a lot of individuals who simply dont read a tape well? Or are possibly breaking in new help alot? It would seem using only 16ths may imply your guys are sitting there "counting" trying to read their tape rather than learning the tape and it simply becoming a second language.

I know for me personally I make all sorts of shortcuts in my head for adding/subtracting fractions and it becomes extremely fast and just second nature but young/new guys really struggle with it. For me its just something that developed over time in several thousand "ah ha!" moments. Employees have to either choose to work at this stuff and or persevere until they get it or not. Not to get off topic but it seems the vast majority today opt to not even try. Further I find that working around the initial confusion of the imperial system teaches guys not only fractions but percentages. When you break the tape down into quarters, halves, and so on, they learn to apply that to many other things.

My personal feeling is, working in the trade is complex enough and there are enough things do focus on. There isnt a lot of need in creating a new system that, as others have said, simply doesnt integrate into the rest of the process. Every print they read, every set of appliance dimension guides, everything, will be in fractions. They had better learn it one way or another unless your going to be there to do all the math for them when they happen to land outside your system.

I cant count how many of those Eazy-read tapes I have taken away from guys and given them a plain ol' 25' chrome Stanley. They balk initially but I just dont allow those tapes. In short order they are calling out measures quickly and efficiently.

As another post mentioned, we too use the "three eights strong" to denote 32nd's and if your working with a good guy you can get even tighter than that with call outs like "a shade over" to denote a 64th.

I think the metric system would be a phenomenal switch but as Keith mentioned, the transition would most definitely put me out of business because it would take me so long to get comfortable with the scale and proportion part of it.

[Ryan Mooney]

I think that that misses the advantages of the standard system. I never actually liked the 16ths of an inch, it would be better with 12ths which you can divide by 2, 3, 4 and 6 :D (and the benefits of base 60 extend on this - ever wonder why we have 60 minutes in an hour, well you have the Sumerians from some 5,000 years ago to thank - that plus some oddities of circle math making that division easier).

For sub inch divisions I have an easier time actually getting a mark right if I do '1/2 minus a 1/16' rather than 7/16, I realize that that is probably a quirk of how my mind works. But the main advantage of the standard system is that its easily divisible into various fractions which make splitting "easier" (at least for people who's brains work that way).

[Jason Roehl]

For the way tape measures are typically marked, I see no advantage to converting everything to 16ths. Inch marks go across the tape. Half-inch marks are shorter, then quarters, eighths and sixteenths are the shortest. So, 10 3/4" is easily read by going to the 10" mark, then moving down the tape 3 of the quarter marks. Moving down the tape 12 of the 16th marks just complicates that measurement.

You just have to use the fractions long enough for them to become second nature. I don't really think about the fact that in wrenches, 5/8" is generally the next size up from 9/16".

As for 1/4" being good enough for framing, I've been in plenty of those houses. If a framer started my house with that lack of accuracy, I'd burn it down and make him start over.

[John Coloccia]

I use whatever is easiest. For example, when finding centerlines, I find it easiest to use fractional measures? Why? Because I can tell you without thinking that half of 57/64 is 57/128. That's just one example where fractions are much simpler. Sometimes, I use just one denominator because it makes sense. I might think in terms of 3.5/16".

For most of my work, I use s simple, decimal measure. 1.027"....6.7", etc. There's no reason to use fractions just because you're not using metric.

I don't really see what the big deal is. I use metric all the time too. No one REALLY uses metric, though. They may use the meter as their base, but when's the last time you nudged something over a couple of decimeters? Or perhaps given someone directions and told them that it's on the left about 2.5 hectometers away. There's an argument to be made that the metric system makes converting units easier, but just exactly how often is it useful is it to know how many kilometers long my bandsaw blade is, or how many millimeters away I live from Steve Schlumpf? Anytime it's REALLY important, us scientific types just use exponential notation because it's simply easier to manipulate. Yeah, we happen to know our micros, nanos and picos from experience, but it's really not relevant, and it works just as well for inches as it does for meters.

Metric vs imperial vs decimal vs fractions is a tempest in a teapot, IMHO.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

As for 1/4" being good enough for framing, I've been in plenty of those houses. If a framer started my house with that lack of accuracy, I'd burn it down and make him start over.

I had a friend who took his family on vacation for 4 weeks. In his tri-level home, the kitchen was on the middle level. One of the water supply lines to the kitchen sink burst, they believe a day or two after he left. He was gone for the month of October and returned in November. It was early March before he could move back into his home. They had to gut the all the walls on the lower two levels, remove insulation, subflooring etc. and had industrial dehumidifiers running for several weeks before they could reinsulate, reinstall wallboard, paint and in the case of one lower level bathroom reframe a shower.

The fine folks who reframed should have been forced to tile too! The tile job looked hideous due to the non-square corners and non-plumb studs!

[Duane Meadows]

Even metric doesn't eliminate the need for math, or some form of fractions. Suppose I want to divide my 100mm board into exact thirds. They are 33.3333333333...mm. Um, 33 1/3mm. Just can't get away from those pesky fractions! If I actually cut the board, then I have to deal with saw kerfs as well!

Won't even talk about triangles or other non 90 deg shapes! Heaven forbid you want tapered staves? Ugh.

Fractions in some form are a part of life... get over it!:D

Only the tool manufacturers win... I need 2 sets of sockets, 2 sets of many styles of wrenches, measuring devices(though digital does convert for me), taps and dies, and so on and on and on.

[Chris Padilla]

When I was in the business, we used "a hair" for anything smaller than 1/16". "A hair shy of 3/16" or a "hair over 3/4".

An ex's father like to use: fat eighth, skinny eighth.

[Mike Henderson]

Buy a metric rule and use that.

Or go to tenths (or hundreds) of an inch.

Mike

[Von Bickley]

I am too old and set in my ways.

I use:

1 RCH, 1/16, 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, 7/16, 1/2..............

[Jim Neeley]

As long as we're talking peeves.. :-)

Although I live in America I'm comfortable with both imperial and metric, decimals and fractions, and to me the answer on what's best is "it depends on what I need".

If I'm marking a board for rough-cut, 1/8" (or sometimes 1/4") is enough. If I'm planing two sides of a board to be parallel, only a knife-edge gauge will give me a good (consistent) enough measurement.

Fractions are handy when I'm using a tape measure to mark a piece of wood but if I'm measuring a piece of wood and use a set of calipers (such as when I want two the same size), I want decimal. Now I'll convert that back to fractions but it gives me a feel for if it's closer to 3/16 or 1/4, at least to the 64th. I make no claim that I mark accurately enough to meet or split 64th but if I'm not starting at the right place my error will be even larger.

What I find funny are people who were born in a country that used imperial and swapped to metric but cannot roughly convert one to the other. Not expressly picking on Canadians but I recently watched a video where a Canadian was bragging about how cold it was. They were carrying on how it was -16C and that wasn't like the pansy Fahrenheit scale. This was *COLD*!


A quick conversion shows -16C is above zero F (+3.2 to be more precise). It was with a chortle that emailed them letting them know it was "only" minus 10F at my house but that was -23C. <g>

[allen long]

For all who say they are too old to change, I say you are selling yourselves a bit short. If you are participating in this forum you are using a computer which is a relatively recent phenomenon.

I do tend to favor Fahrenheit since it is more granular than Celsius (at least in the temperature ranges in the spaces I inhabit or processes I would use). Then again, if you are used to Celsius, when it comes down to it how accurate do you need to be when you are complaining it is too hot, too cold, or just right? Certainly not in the +/- 1 or 2 degree range!

[Charles Coolidge]

I'm from the CNC camp so I work in decimal 00.000 inches.

[phil harold]

As long as we're talking peeves.. :-)


What I find funny are people who were born in a country that used imperial and swapped to metric but cannot roughly convert one to the other. Not expressly picking on Canadians but I recently watched a video where a Canadian was bragging about how cold it was. They were carrying on how it was -16C and that wasn't like the pansy Fahrenheit scale. This was *COLD*!


A quick conversion shows -16C is above zero F (+3.2 to be more precise). It was with a chortle that emailed them letting them know it was "only" minus 10F at my house but that was -23C. <g>

~negative 40ºC is~negative 40ºF
both too cold for me

[Bruce Page]

I was working for the Dept of Energy/Los Alamos Laboratory as a machinist when the Carter administration mandated the push to go metric. Almost all of the non NC & CNC machinery was retrofitted to metric with new lead screws & dials – probably 50+ Bridgeport’s and dozens of lathes of various sizes in the main shop alone. We were all forced to learn the metric system. Not too long after that digital-read-outs (DRO’s) became widely available and were installed on most of the machines. Neat thing about DRO’s is you can flip a switch between metric and imperial read out. It wasn’t long before we were all working imperial again.

[Bill Space]

When I want to be accurate and repeatable, I forget about tape measurements and use two sticks!

Surprised no one mentioned using sticks in place of other measurement methods...

Bill

[Rod Sheridan]

~negative 40ºC is~negative 40ºF
both too cold for me

I've worked outside at that temp many times. or walked to school, or played outside and it's cold.

I grew up with the Imperial system until high school when we went metric, it is a lot easier to use than the Imperial system, and I think having the freezing point of water at zero, rather than 32 makes more sense.

I don't convert to the Imperial system from metric, why would you ever bother converting from one system to another?

Just buy some measuring equipment and work in one system or the other as needed...............Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

What I find funny are people who were born in a country that used imperial and swapped to metric but cannot roughly convert one to the other. Not expressly picking on Canadians but I recently watched a video where a Canadian was bragging about how cold it was. They were carrying on how it was -16C and that wasn't like the pansy Fahrenheit scale. This was *COLD*!


A quick conversion shows -16C is above zero F (+3.2 to be more precise). It was with a chortle that emailed them letting them know it was "only" minus 10F at my house but that was -23C. <g>

LOL............That is good, however you have to remember that we converted 40 years ago, so you have to be around 50 or older to remember anything about the Fahrenheit scale..........Rod

[Mark Bolton]

why would you ever bother converting from one system to another?

Just buy some measuring equipment and work in one system or the other as needed...............Rod.

While many things are dimensioned in both imperial and metric (cut sheets, templates, and so on) the switch for me would include a lot of conversions on a daily basis but I do think it would be much easier once you got there. But it would take a while, and operating in the US you would be doing conversions many times daily for a long time because we arent going metric any time soon. I think there would also be a mutiny as none of the guys Ive ever had work for me would take too well to the notion. :rolleyes:

[Mikhail Lermontov]

I immigrated to the US from Russia at 25 now I'm 38. I've got used to the both systems. Prefer SI compare to the British system a bit more because of some things much easier to calculate.

[John Coloccia]

In the guitar building/repair world, it's a complete mish-mash is mismatched measurements. Parts from Japan tend to use metric measurements. US parts tends to be imperial measurements. There's no hard and fast rule, though. You just need to be able to go back and forth. Some guitar styles traditionally have metric scale lengths. Ibanez uses standard scale lengths (25 1/2 for example), but metric fingerboard radius. It's really not a big deal. It's like getting the kerf on the correct side of a cut. It's just something you do that isn't a big deal.

[johnny means]

This is one of my biggest issues when looking for help. Any tradesman worth his salt should be able to think in fractions without pause. There are only so many actual combinations we use. I liken it to learning basic multiplication. My daughter is still having to count her way through some problems, but at some point nine time seven won't be equation anymore, it will just be sixty three. ALikewise, I want any guy in my shop to just know that 3/8 plus 5/16 is 11/16. No thought, no doubt, same answer that it's been the thousands of other times before. Encouraging someone to shortcut fractions is simply excepting our educational deficiencies (let's not get to deeply into that issue). Also, the 16th method leaves the user counting hash marks instead of using instantly recognizable visual cues. I could see myself miscounting 8/16 when the 1/2 mark is so easy to see. I find it difficult to understand how someone can work with measurments day after day and not be fluent in fractions. It's like living in France and not picking up French. As far as I'm concerned, converting all this to decimals is pretty much a must have skill also. If I give someone a drawing or parts list that I've written by hand its likely to have a mix of fractions, decimals and possibly metric measurements. If they can't handle that, are they really qualified for the job?

[John Coloccia]

If they can't handle that, are they really qualified for the job?

I would say that a pro that misreads 16ths off a ruler is probably not qualified either.

[Jim Andrew]

.The housing industry runs on feet and inches not meters and centimeters. The lumber is cut in feet, plywood is made in feet, manufactured basement forms are built in feet and inches, it is just not practical to change to metric. As for your help, needing to count the 16ths on their tape, that is just the sad reality of how far down our school systems have slid. I ran into guys who could not read a tape, I would say I need a 2x4 7' 3 3/4", and it might be off by 1/2" when they would hand it to me, so I did the cutting on my jobs. Also ran into young guys who thought they should just stand and watch, and that I would pay them.

[glenn bradley]

What if you need 7/64"?

I have slowly become comfortable with the fact that many people do not use increments under 1/16" or 1mm :eek:

[Steven Powell]

To hell with the metric system. Long live the English measurement system!

[johnny means]

There's a big difference between making an error trying to count on a tiny, hard to see scale and not understanding the scale.

[Terry Therneau]

I use metric when building furniture, cabinets, or anything else I design. It's just simpler. Since I'm planing the boards down anyway it will be whatever thickness I choose.
I can do fractions without trouble when I need them (I should, I make my living doing math). Metric wrenches for the car don't bother me, though it's true that I can spot an 11/16 in the toolbox easier than a 14mm (grew up on a farm).
Terry T.

[Richard Wagner]

When I want to be accurate and repeatable, I forget about tape measurements and use two sticks!

Surprised no one mentioned using sticks in place of other measurement methods...

Bill But sticks (story boards) are measuring devices. To some degree, I suspect we all use them.

[Richard Wagner]

This has been a very interesting thread to read. I am 74 and learning new tricks in the shop all the time. Recently I find myself going from one method to the other without realizing that I have done so. Old dog or no, I am still learning.

However, I think I prefer Imperial. Doing mental math with fractions is no longer a challenge.

I also learned, when doing hardwood floors, that close is not good enough.

[sebastian phillips]

Andy, your system is the same I used when I had a 4 man crew, and works perfectly when everyone buys in. A callout of 21-6 (read 21 3/8) is easy to hear and you don't get the chance to mistake 3/16 for the intended 3/8 (this happens all too often when some distance separates the guys).
The cut lists are easier and quicker to write too: 15-4, 22-12, 36-14, etc vs. 15 1/4, 22 3/4, 36 7/8 .

Any system can work if everyone is on the same page, but expecting the average tradesman to use the metric system, in the field, when doors, windows, cabinets, etc. are still called out imperially is wishful thinking. I use metric in the shop, mentally jumping between systems is not hard if you have a mind for it.

To the guy saying 1/4 is close enough for framing- NO. Have fun hanging cabinets or running tile in a house framed to a 1/4".
I always strove for a 1/16" accuracy, and for the great majority everything stayed +/- 1/16 of "the number".
Houses always want to grow, no excuse starting off sloppy and shooting for 1/4" accuracy.

In a lot of ways framers are the most important sub-trade on a house. Everything runs through or is fastened to their work. They can make everyone's work easier or harder by keeping sticks out of the way of plumbers/ hvac men/ sparky's, and crowning studs, saving the best ones for baths and kitchens, rejecting the junk.

I could go on forever about the merits of a good framer (not to obvious that I spent 15 + years at it, eh).
Seb

[andy photenas]

Thank you all for the feedback! i cant understand how u think counting by one and saying + or - on the 16 would not work for someone. is it really that hard to know 4/16+ = just over a 1/4 inch?
Ill be sticking to my ways because teaching to do fractions in ones head to young ppl is very hard and takes away form the work(i like teaching, and a lot of ppl in this trade are ok with math and great with building)
But all points well taken !

heheh i had to poke the hornets nest to see what happend!!! :)

[Keith Outten]

Andy,

Young people are certainly capable of learning to use fractions. When I was a child this was taught in elementary school and every single child was more than just proficient. Things are a bit different today, our educational system doesn't feel that Reading, Writing or Arithmetic are valuable skills. I won't argue this point with anyone because I have ample opportunity to meet high school graduates whose reading comprehension is abysmal, few can write a reasonable paragraph and most can't even calculate a simple discount. Adding insult to injury not one in a hundred can answer a telephone properly.

They are taught to pass the SOL tests though and one hundred percent of them can read a gas gauge in a car :(
.

[Steve Milito]

Metric is superior in so many ways. It's an embarrassment that the US has not switched to metric.

[Mel Fulks]

Steve,that happened in the mid sixties by act of congress . Guess they are still working on strict enforcement.

[John Coloccia]

Metric is superior in so many ways. It's an embarrassment that the US has not switched to metric.

I keep hearing this, but no one ever explains why. I use both interchangeably and numbers work identically in both systems.

[John Coloccia]

In fact, I'll make the argument that as a practical matter, imperial measure is far more practical for a lot of things. Have you ever tried to follow, or maybe even memorize, a recipe given in metric units? 500 of these, 230 of those, 1050 of these, etc etc. It's much easier to remember, IMHO, a tablespoon of this, a teaspoon of that, a cup of this. OK, so I can't easily convert how many cups of flour it takes to fill my bathtub. Big deal...I never do that.

I would be very careful declaring one system superior without first indicating the context. The superior system, in my opinion, is one in which you choose the most sensible measure for the task at hand.

[Mel Fulks]

Even though metric is the LAW some of the worst offenders are POLICE . They kicked in the door of a friend and charged him with having "two and one half ounces of weed" NOT TRUE! He had KILOGRAMS ,had the sales receipt and everything!

[J.R. Rutter]

I have digital displays on every machine that matters in my shop, so we don't use fractions much.

[andy photenas]

let me just chime in that i am not talking about metric at all in this only trying to compare counting by 1 2 3 is eaiser then counting by 1/16, 1/8, 3/16 ,1/4. also i still use the 4/16, 8/16 and 12/16 as base that u remember very fast then u start count at 12/16 if it 3/4 u dont count each line! i know its hard to try new things and i dont think this is the answer for everyone as i do believe other ways work very well for a lot of ppl.

I did fairly poorly in school and i learn things by touch much better then rembering rules so i think i like to teach in that manner i have brought ppl from totally blocked to leaning fractions to being able to juggle them in there head like all of u its a way of keeping learning fractions from hurting learning woodwork to some but in the end they learn both :)

[andy photenas]

PS if u use fractional in your shop JUST GIVE THIS A TRY FOR 1 HR OF YOUR TIME !
I feel strongly that if you try it you will see the good as bad's of this method better.

[Steve Milito]

All you need to do is Move the decimal point get more practical units.
The units are selfexplanatory.
Covering to surface area to volume is simple
Energy unit conversions are easy.

It goes on and on

[Duane Meadows]

Ok, a bunch of people saying that their way is better! If it works for you, fine. Personally I am quite comfortable with fractions, decimals, or even metric. They will all get the job done.

Don't need to waste an hour of time trying to learn someone else's mental trick. Especially one that puts an arbitrary limit on the accuracy to which I can measure!:rolleyes:

[Daniel Rode]

I have slowly become comfortable with the fact that many people do not use increments under 1/16" or 1mm :eek:

I remain uncomfortable with that fact :) I feel that one measure (no pun) of a craftsman is what level of precision is used. I aspire to a precision greater than my current ability. I can feel 1 or 2 thou, I can see, maybe 1/128" and I can mostly and mark accurately to 1/64". In my mind, 1/16" is big.

As a youth, with 20/20 eyesight, 1/16" was tiny to me.

[John Lanciani]

...Don't need to waste an hour of time trying to learn someone else's mental trick. Especially one that puts an arbitrary limit on the accuracy to which I can measure!:rolleyes:

+1. Being fluent in fractional imperial, decimal imperial, and metric gives me the option to use whatever is most appropriate for the task at hand, whether it's building a house or ordering engine parts.

[John Downey]

I could see it being better on a jobsite, where you might have a guy calling out measurements, as someone else described.

If you are advocating the teaching of new hires in a cabinet shop, where there is no advantage in auditory clarity, you're not doing those people any favors. Next shop they go and work for will cut them loose in a hurry if they can't add fractions in their head. You may not think it's right, but that is just the way it is.

Although I do not have employees, I doubt very much that I would hire someone with a 3rd grade ability in arithmetic any more than I would hire someone who could only read at a third grade level. Fair? Absolutely not. But what employer is interested in fair? They want a good return on the wage they pay, hiring the smart guys is one way to get it.

[Mike Henderson]

Although I do not have employees, I doubt very much that I would hire someone with a 3rd grade ability in arithmetic any more than I would hire someone who could only read at a third grade level. Fair? Absolutely not. But what employer is interested in fair? They want a good return on the wage they pay, hiring the smart guys is one way to get it.
Of course it's fair. You have the absolute right to hire the best person for the job. Discrimination based on certain categories, such as race, religion, and a few others is not allowed, but beyond that, you *should* hire who you think will do the best job.

Mike

[John Downey]

Of course it's fair. You have the absolute right to hire the best person for the job. Discrimination based on certain categories, such as race, religion, and a few others is not allowed, but beyond that, you *should* hire who you think will do the best job.

Mike

Of course you're right, my idea of fair is roughly in line with yours :D

Lots of people seem to define "fair" a bit oddly from my point of view these days, I've given up on arguing that point and stick to the way the world is rather than how they want it to be. Businesses usually work they way they do for logical reasons, I was trying to point that out and not get bogged down in whether that logic is fair or not. :D

[Mark Bolton]

Of course it's fair. You have the absolute right to hire the best person for the job. Discrimination based on certain categories, such as race, religion, and a few others is not allowed, but beyond that, you *should* hire who you think will do the best job.

Mike

Couldnt agree more. Th unfortunate part is in this profession you often dont have much depth in the hiring pool. I can uderstand the OPs intention but I think it's better to expect your emoloyees to commit to, and push themselves, to learn.

Ive heard the "I learn by doing" thing many times, including from myself when I was young. But more often than not a large part of the problem is an unwillingness to push yourself, or even worse, a refusal to be pushed. Nine times out of ten when the guy who says he learns by doing has a motivated intrest (read $$) they will pick up a book and study, read, and learn. This is usually followed by a realization that you could have, and should have, applied yourself and worked harder in school. Still wouldnt have been honor roll or all a's and b's but would have gotten more out if it.

I struggled in school. But when it came time to make money and build staircases, calculate rafter run and rise long hand on a jobsite, I suddenly had a "new found" motivation. Suddenly I miraculously became a wizard with geometry and the pythogrean theorum. Sadly I couldve had much more of that work under my belt when graduated had I chose.

Severe learning disabilities are a completely different matter.

[sebastian phillips]

I could see it being better on a jobsite, where you might have a guy calling out measurements, as someone else described.

If you are advocating the teaching of new hires in a cabinet shop, where there is no advantage in auditory clarity, you're not doing those people any favors. Next shop they go and work for will cut them loose in a hurry if they can't add fractions in their head. You may not think it's right, but that is just the way it is.
.
The original poster is teaching his guys to add fractions!! His system, automatically, puts everything in a common denominator (x/16). The addition of long strings of fractions becomes easy with a common denominator. Add 1/2, 13/16, 3/4, 5/16, and 1/4 in your head, quickly if you can. Now add 8, 13, 12, 5, and 4 in your head quickly...simple. Even if you use a calculator there are way less key strokes.

As far as precision, by adding plus or minus to your numbers, you are easily at 1/32 precision. Accurate, you bet- if you can mentally divide you 16ths lines in half on your tape (actually you can hit 1/64 precision with some imagination).

Anyway, the OP has actually described a "metric type system" that works with imperial only the common # is 16; perfect for the actual conditions found on a job site. No one will ever mis-hear 3/16 for 3/8 with his system, and trust me that happens.

[johnny means]

The original poster is teaching his guys to add fractions!! His system, automatically, puts everything in a common denominator (x/16). The addition of long strings of fractions becomes easy with a common denominator. Add 1/2, 13/16, 3/4, 5/16, and 1/4 in your head, quickly if you can. Now add 8, 13, 12, 5, and 4 in your head quickly...simple. Even if you use a calculator there are way less key strokes.

As far as precision, by adding plus or minus to yourcju23n2t

numbers, you are easily at 1/32 precision. Accurate, you bet- if you can mentally divide you 16ths lines in half on your tape (actually you can hit 1/64 precision with some imagination).

Anyway, the OP has actually described a "metric type system" that works with imperial only the common # is 16; perfect for the actual conditions found on a job site. No one will ever mis-hear 3/16 for 3/8 with his system, and trust me that happens.

Actually, he's teaching his guys to use a 16 base counting system. In order to learn fractions the conversions need to be done at the beginning and end of the problem. Yelling out 4 16s does in no way convey a recognition of 4/16 being equivalent to 1/4. No more than counting to twenty means that you know what a score is.

[sebastian phillips]

Yelling out 4 16s does in no way convey a recognition of 4/16 being equivalent to 1/4.

You obviously didn't understand what I said. Someone who understands 4 as 4/16 does in fact realize that is the same as 1/4!!!

The OP's method is not a substitute for learning fractions- craftsmen using this method mentally convert 8 to 1/2, 12 to 3/4 all day long; the same as a bilingual person can go back and force between French and English all day.

Multi-million dollar homes are framed and finished by crews communicating in just this manner-not because it is a way to avoid fractions, but rather, because it makes for simpler communication between crew members and eliminates errors.

I build casework in metric, and know my decimals to the sixteenths; however, on a job-site, crew setting, the OP's method is the best I have seen in 30 plus years on the job.

[johnny means]

You obviously didn't understand what I said. Someone who understands 4 as 4/16 does in fact realize that is the same as 1/4!!!

The OP's method is not a substitute for learning fractions- craftsmen using this method mentally convert 8 to 1/2, 12 to 3/4 all day long; the same as a bilingual person can go back and force between French and English all day.

Multi-million dollar homes are framed and finished by crews communicating in just this manner-not because it is a way to avoid fractions, but rather, because it makes for simpler communication between crew members and eliminates errors.

I build casework in metric, and know my decimals to the sixteenths; however, on a job-site, crew setting, the OP's method is the best I have seen in 30 plus years on the job.

I can assure you, being the parent in charge of math homework, that knowing 4 of 16 does not mean one understands what a quarter is. The OP described fractional math as low level algebra with no use on the job, implying that it is difficult and need not be understood. Now your 16 base system may be fine for cutting 2x4s to length but what happens when some real computing is needed is needed. How many 2 5/8" slats do I need to wainscot 75 ft of wall? How do I divide 121" into 9 equal panels? How many pizzas and six packs do I need for 23 guy crew? How many bf of 10/4 do we need? All these should be relatively simple and quick operations for a tradesman.

[John Coloccia]

I'm all for just standardizing on base 16 measurements. Then you wouldn't even have to say "sixteenths" and everything would be more efficient.

"Hey Jim, where you at? 22 and 9? Can you skootch it over a bit...I'm a couple short. Can you go 22 and B? "

[sebastian phillips]

Then you would even have to say "sixteenths" and everything would be more efficient.

"Hey Jim, where you at? 22 and 9? Can you skootch it over a bit...I'm a couple short. Can you go 22 and B? "

Exactly.

This "technique" of measuring and COMMUNICATING has it's place. It is one measurement "tool" amongst many, same as we would use a bevel, combination, or framing square depending on circumstance.

I can look at the same "mark" on a tape and simultaneously see 12-6, 12 3/8, or 12.375; I will use what is appropriate for the task at hand.

To divide panel's evenly in a space, I would use fractions.

[Ole Anderson]

I have a FastCap Lefty-Righty tape that reads out sixteenths that I find really useful. I see a lot of merit in using the system the OP is promoting. Personally I am starting to use the system more often when the measurement isn't a multiple of a quarter inch. When I make a measurement and then carry it back to the board to be cut I just have to read and remember 21-7 and a half instead of 21 and 15/32. Maybe I am a bit dyslexic, but to look at a normally divided tape and automatically see the sixteenth mark just past the 5/8 tic as 11/16 doesn't always happen. Edit: I normally read the top of the tape, not the bottom, so I think they were trying to solve a common problem with the lefty-righty tape, but got it backwards. Hey, another poll, do you read the top or bottom of the tape?

[andy photenas]

politics never was my thing but ill take my 7 percent that listened to my lecture!
most ppl compared metric to fractional but my point was to just use fractional and call it a different name to eliminate math while ur measuring Ill need to work on clarity on things like this!
Last think i agree that ppl need to know what others use for numbers too i just teach it in a different order 4/16 oh that 1/4 the math starts to show it self when u look at a tape and is a very hands on way for ppl to learn. i find many ppl that are amazing with working with there hands are not great with math i would hate to scare away a future woodworking master! Again Ty for all the imput i love this group of ppl on here :)

[Mark Ashmeade]

I use both Imperial and Metric, I am of the generation that grew up with both. Whichever is the most appropriate for the task. The maths of it are absolutely elementary, whichever system one uses, whether fractional or decimal. The one thing I find is that scales on US made equipment (or made for the US market) tends to be Imperial only, which mostly settles the issue of which system to use.

The one thing I dislike is people assuming that "standard" or "regular" is one thing rather than another. For example, in Canada, it's Metric. In the US it's Imperial. Neither are any more right, normal or standard than the other system, they just are what they are.

[Mel Fulks]

Mark, congress has taken a number of actions to make metric official. They have stopped short of force, but you are free to lobby for that. July 4 is official ,metric is official . One is widely accepted the other is not.

[Mark Ashmeade]

Mark, congress has taken a number of actions to make metric official. They have stopped short of force, but you are free to lobby for that. July 4 is official ,metric is official . One is widely accepted the other is not.

Mel, you've just proved my point. Imperial measurement is widely accepted in the US. July 4th is specific to the US.

I'm not lobbying either way, as I said, I grew up with both. I used metric exclusively in the Army, and pretty much use Imperial in my shop. "Normal" and such terms would get you something different in most of the rest of the world. One man's normal is another man's highly unusual.

[Pat Barry]

The long and brutal winter has everyone stir crazy. Just like groundhog day, the metric vs correct discussion takes place every year about this time.