Solid wood substrate for hammer veneering & other hammer veneering questions.

[Judson Green]

Any thoughts on what a good solid wood substrate for veneering would be? And any benefit to making a stave core? Veneer just one side or both? I've always guled veneer on both sides of the substrate in the past as I thought it was necessary to prevent warping/cupping, but on some of the antique furniture I've looked at the veneer is guled on just one side, to what appears to a solid (pine?, I think) wood. Just watched this video (http://woodtreks.com/learn-how-hammer-veneers-hand-tools-inlay-marquetry-hide-glue/1493/) and though I know Patrick Edwards is just doing this as a demonstration, but it appears he using solid poplar as the substrate.

Also, he's using a fine toothing iron in scraping plane (applying a crosshatching to the substrate) and his explanation of its use seems to be more as a indicator (insuring flatness) rather than a texture. Do you guys think this is necessary?

[Tony Shea]

I don't believe the toothing plane is absolutely necessary but I do think it'll help a bit with adhesion as well. I do think the purpose is more of an indication that you've achieved a nice flat surface rather than for adhesion. The hide glue should bond to a nice smooth surface just about as well as the toothed surface.

When picking a substrate I would choose a nice quartersawn piece of stable wood. I have used poplar, pine, and mahogany for substrates. I always veneer both sides of the board, picking a less desirable piece for the back.

Having said all this, I am very inexpierenced in the realm of hammer veneering so take this advice for what it's worth.

[Judson Green]

Thanks for chiming in Tony, I appreciate it.

[Tom McMahon]

In my experience, I restore antiques for a living, this is what I have found.

"Any thoughts on what a good solid wood substrate for veneering would be?"

The old timers didn't seem to pay much attention to what they used for substrate. I have seen every thing from knotty pine to Cuban mahogany used. Quarter sawed is certainly more stable and sometimes seen on better pieces.

"Veneer just one side or both?"

I cannot remember ever seeing the back side of a panel that didn't show, veneered in preindustrial handmade work. Doors and fall fronts and the like where both sides were seen were usuallydone on both sides but not always. I've seen door panels that are held in a frame only done on the front side.

"I've always guled veneer on both sides of the substrate in the past as I thought it was necessary to prevent warping/cupping,"

In the past the veneer was applied after the the components were built when possible, for instance a drawer front was veneered after the drawer was glued together so the front was held in place by the sides, tops after attaching to the case and so on, also shop made veneer was used, it was thick enough to allow for some flattening after it was applied. Panels that had to be veneered before assembly were held flat with battens until assembled.

"he's using a fine toothing iron in scraping plane (applying a crosshatching to the substrate) and his explanation of its use seems to be more as a indicator (insuring flatness) rather than a texture. Do you guys think this is necessary?"

I don't know for sure if it is necessary but it was almost always done.

[Mel Fulks]

On one of R. Underhill's segments the toothing plane main use was to smooth back of hand sawn figured veneer. Did seem to work well without pulling chunks out. And with hammer veneering it probably makes room for some of the glue. For gluing with clamps I think all mfgs reccommend smooth surfaces.

[Christopher Charles]

I've also wondered about the toothing of surfaces to "improve adhesion" since most tests i've seen indicate that glue adhesion to smooth surfaces with hide glue provides a bond as or almost as strong as the wood itself. Thus, the idea that the toothing provides "greater surface area" for bonding seems flawed.

I've recently toothed the surface of my bench and that experience provides an alternative theory--that toothing prior to hammer veneering provides a non-slip surface so that the veneer doesn't shifting when glue is applied and is squeegied with the hammer. Must be a reason or they wouldn't have done it...

Thoughts?
Cheers,
C

[Judson Green]

Thanks guys

Tom, really appreciate taking the time to answer those questions and from a fellow Wisconsinite no less, thanks.

Mel, don't think I've seen that one.. I'll have to do a little looking.

Christopher, that pretty insightful.

Couple more questions perhaps you guys have an answer to.

Forgot I have a LN version of a Stanley 212, think if I got a toothing iron for it that would do the job? Its kinda small. Think it would matter if I got a toothing iron for a plane instead?

[Christopher Charles]

Hello Judson,

I've got a LV large scraper with a toothing blade. When i roughed th top on my 7.5' hard maple benchtop it took all of 4 minutes or so. So, yes i should think your LN with the toothing blade should donthe trick.

C