rookie question on board glue-ups

[Timothy Barker]

Probably a dumb question, but:
I am in the process of designing a woodworking bench. I'm looking at two options:
1) 2-3 layers of MDF/plywood with a hardwood top layer of some sort.
2) SYP boards glued up along the lines of the Schwarz design.

I'm leaning toward option 2, but may have a problem in that I don't own a planar or jointer. My plan was to rip 2x6s in half and glue them together. But can I do that with the boards as they come from the lumber yard?

Any advice is appreciated.

Tim

[johnny means]

Well, I can real you that option #1 it's a bad idea. You would definitely have expansion issues. Option #2 It's tricky without the ability to properly mill your lumber. Have you considered just laying up a top made from sheet goods? There's is no real reason that a work bench needs any sort of solid lumber on top. My favorite material for work surfaces is melamine. Glue, Sharpie, paint, stain, grocery lists, all wipe off with ease. Plus, since it is just melamine, I don't feel bad when I want to nail or screw a jig or fixture right to it. Then when it starts showing its age, I flip it and get another 10 years of use.

[Jon Wilson]

I'm new (again) to woodworking and my first workbench this time around was an old solid wood door ($15 at my local ReStore)
used up some old dimensional lumber that I had laying around, bought a vise from the big box store ($25, nothing fancy)
a shelf beneath the work surface, a few hooks to hold frequently used items and voila! I was using my workbench in about 3 hours time.

I will eventually get around to building a nice heirloom quality bench but for now I found it more beneficial to have a workbench I could use to
start making sawdust and put a few quick, simple projects together.

This is just my opinion and how/why I went the direction I did, as always your mileage may vary but there's an option 3 for you to look in to.

[Rich Riddle]

Between the two choices you listed, the second sounds better. Can you please state what tools you have that might aid in ensuring the boards end up straight? Do you have a track saw, etc.?

[Steve Baumgartner]

Probably a dumb question, but:
I am in the process of designing a woodworking bench. I'm looking at two options:
1) 2-3 layers of MDF/plywood with a hardwood top layer of some sort.
2) SYP boards glued up along the lines of the Schwarz design.

I'm leaning toward option 2, but may have a problem in that I don't own a planar or jointer. My plan was to rip 2x6s in half and glue them together. But can I do that with the boards as they come from the lumber yard?

Any advice is appreciated.

Tim

In option 1 you will have take care with the fact that the solid top layer will expand and contract with seasonal moisture changes whereas the underlayment layers will not. This will make the top warp and/or crack over time. Option 2 is better because the materials aren't unbalanced like that. But...

There are two difficulties with using construction lumber for plan 2. This lumber is very rarely perfectly straight or flat, and it is not fully dried so most of its shrinkage and warping is yet to happen. So, you should be ready to do some serious flattening after it is glued up and should allow for the fact that it will shrink quite a bit over the first year or two (i.e. fasten it to the legs in a way that will let it move).

None the less, with some effort you can build the top without a jointer or planer.

If you are into hand tools, planes are the traditional answer. If you are a power tool guy, you can get most of it done with a belt sander. The one thing you should not expect is that you can just rip them, glue up, and be on your way!

Steve

[Timothy Barker]

My only real power tool options are the table saw and a router table. Of course I could joint the narrow sides of the 2x?, but I don't imagine it will help much with the wide faces that will be glued together.

Regarding option 1 above, I was wondering how something like Melanine would handle bench dog holes.

[Joe A Faulkner]

You don't list your location, you might consider sharing that information. Perhaps someone would offer to do some milling for/with you on their equipment. Rather than 2x6's, You would be better off going with 2x10's or 2x12's. Get long, clear boards, buck them down to length and rip out your pieces. If the boards are straight and true, you may get by without milling the pieces. Flattening the top once you've laminated everything can be done using a router. The woodwhisper has a video cast on how to do this.

[Timothy Barker]

Oh, I'm in St. Louis.
It's funny. I checked with a local lumber yard. They told me their shorter lengths are more likely to be straight and free of knots. (which is different than other suggestions I've seen in online forums.) They say all of their SYP is grade 1, if that matters.

[Bill McNiel]

Solid core door with MDF overlay makes a great "first" bench. Mine is 20+ years old, resurfaced every couple of years. Inexpensive and dead on flat.

[Howard Acheson]

As already said, option #1 is a no go. You can't glue a solid wood top to a composition (MDF or plywood) subsrtate. The solid wood will want to expand and contract while the composition material remains stable. Warping, splitting and other damage will result.

However, you can put a 1/4" hardboard (masonite) top over the MDF or plywood and have a nice tabletop.

I don't know what a Scwarz design bench is. Any pictures or a drawing?

[Timothy Barker]

Regarding the schwarz design, it's something I've come across a lot in researching workbenches.
Here is a link. (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/175_workbench)

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I think you can do well enough with 2X4s glued together. Once you rip a wider board you are going to have to joint and plane it as they tend to move. I think you can cull enough straight 2X4s to get a pretty flat glue up. That's what I did although I did plane them down to 3". I planed the top flat with a #7 Stanley.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Regarding the schwarz design, it's something I've come across a lot in researching workbenches.
Here is a link. (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/175_workbench)


That first picture of the glue up looks like my bench top in progress.

[Jay Park]

I would hold of on building a bench and make due w/ a simpler option.

Fine a solid core (office) door on craigslist for < $50 and put it on 2 saw horse.

Skip building lousy bench now and wait until you have more equipment and skills

[Harvey Miller]

I built my workbench using 'tom's torsion box work bench' plan (google it) using a tablesaw and a cordless drill. It's pretty close to option 1. Mine is in 3/4" birch plywood and construction 2x4s.

[Timothy Barker]

Found a friend with a jointer. So I'm going to go ahead with plan 2. Figure it's less than $50 worth of wood for SYP. Not a huge risk if I mess it up.
It will be an adventure.
Thanks for the comments everyone.

[Jim Foster]

Without a planer you will have a tough time getting the two sides of the boards parallel. Also, typically the shorter construction lumber has more knots as far as I have seen in local yards. I think the Nicholson bench Schwarz shows in his book could be a much easier build with the tools you have access to, unless your friend has a planer also.


Found a friend with a jointer. So I'm going to go ahead with plan 2. Figure it's less than $50 worth of wood for SYP. Not a huge risk if I mess it up.
It will be an adventure.
Thanks for the comments everyone.

[Timothy Barker]

Forgot to mention. He has a planer as well.

[Huck Schwee]

I went the buying 2x12's and ripping into the appropriate width and milling to the final dimensions for my workbench route. I would recommend AGAINST doing that. The big box lumber is so wet that once you rip the boards to rough width, they bow and twist and you will spend a ton of time at the jointer and planer and even then, the wood will continue to move until it finally drys out. My recommendation is to go with the 2x4's or even 4x4's and squaring up and gluing.

I know not everyone here is a big fan of Peter Sellers, but he has an pretty good workbench build that you can check out just using a hand plane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru2ZiNs_Wek&list=PLD39949332C7FB168&index=1).

[Jim Sevey]

My first bench was built out of yellow pine 2 X 6 material. Cut one edge off to get a clean edge so my top was about 5 inches thick. Drilled holes every 18 inches or so and used all-thread across the width tighten it up. Scraped and planed the top flat and smooth with a #4 hand plane. 4 X 4 base. That was over 25 years ago. Recently gave it to my son who was about 2 years old when I made it. Still in good shape althoug the top is only about 4 inches now after re-planing several times over the years. I did it for fun. But it was actually a very handy bench.

[Stew Hagerty]

My only real power tool options are the table saw and a router table. Of course I could joint the narrow sides of the 2x?, but I don't imagine it will help much with the wide faces that will be glued together.

Regarding option 1 above, I was wondering how something like Melanine would handle bench dog holes.

First of all, if you use a really good blade in your table saw, it can be close enough in quality for a glue-up. Secondarily, you can joint the boards using your router table. You simply get a straight bit longer than the material you want to joint. A 2" bit will handle edge jointing a standard "2X4". What you do is place a piece or two of veneer on the outfeed side of your fence beginning at the leading edge of the bit (spray adhesive will work, you'll just need to clean the residue off of your fence when you remove the veneer). Then adjust the fence so that the bit is flush with the veneer side. As you feed your stock through the bit will cut away (Joint) the edge of the board the thickness of the veneer that you used.

A jointer is the one piece of capital equipment that I do not own, so I use this method quite often. I have a 2" bit and a 4" bit, both from Whiteside. I do admit that for me this is a simpler procedure because I have an Incra router table that has offset capability built in. But the method I described is basically the same thing.

Of course, you could also just pick up a jointer plane. Either buy a new one, or pick up a vintage one at a flea market or off of eBay, give it a tune up and you're ready to rock some shavings.

[Kent A Bathurst]

They told me their shorter lengths are more likely to be straight and free of knots. (which is different than other suggestions I've seen in online forums.) They say all of their SYP is grade 1, if that matters.

The lumber yard is correct.

Shorter lengths have shorter long fiber strands - less distance to be affected by drying. On the knots - the grade rules specify knot dimension/diameter, location with respect to the edge of the boards, and # per length unit [ie - so many per foot, or rather, # knots over X # feet]. And - the allowed diameter of the knots increases in wider boards. So- Yeah - you would tend to find fewer knots in shorter boards than longer, and smaller knots in 2 x 4 versus 2 x 10.

[Timothy Barker]

My first bench was built out of yellow pine 2 X 6 material. Cut one edge off to get a clean edge so my top was about 5 inches thick. Drilled holes every 18 inches or so and used all-thread across the width tighten it up. Scraped and planed the top flat and smooth with a #4 hand plane. 4 X 4 base. That was over 25 years ago. Recently gave it to my son who was about 2 years old when I made it. Still in good shape althoug the top is only about 4 inches now after re-planing several times over the years. I did it for fun. But it was actually a very handy bench.

Sounds pretty much like what I'm looking for. Was even considering the bit with the threaded rods.

[Timothy Barker]

I went the buying 2x12's and ripping into the appropriate width and milling to the final dimensions for my workbench route. I would recommend AGAINST doing that. The big box lumber is so wet that once you rip the boards to rough width, they bow and twist and you will spend a ton of time at the jointer and planer and even then, the wood will continue to move until it finally drys out. My recommendation is to go with the 2x4's or even 4x4's and squaring up and gluing.

I know not everyone here is a big fan of Peter Sellers, but he has an pretty good workbench build that you can check out just using a hand plane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru2ZiNs_Wek&list=PLD39949332C7FB168&index=1).

For what it's worth, I'm getting the wood from a local lumber yard rather than one of the big box stores. They are supposed to have a pretty decent selection, though time will tell. Planning to go check it out in person this weekend.

[Guy Belleman]

Some good ideas already given. I used a door for many years. Got it at the building materials recycling place and paid $20. It was still absolutely flat when I got rid of it.

When I made my workbench, I was lucky to find some 4S 4x6 oak being sold as left overs from a construction job. I couldn't glue and plane, so I was able to get a local cabinet shop to glue them and run through their sander for $50. I am sure that St. Louis probably has some shop that could do the same.

[Timothy Barker]

Some good ideas already given. I used a door for many years. Got it at the building materials recycling place and paid $20. It was still absolutely flat when I got rid of it.

When I made my workbench, I was lucky to find some 4S 4x6 oak being sold as left overs from a construction job. I couldn't glue and plane, so I was able to get a local cabinet shop to glue them and run through their sander for $50. I am sure that St. Louis probably has some shop that could do the same.

Yeah, that's my fallback position if I run into trouble. Someone pointed me to a local woodcrafter (his workshop is a few miles from my house) who has a 37" widebelt sander that he rents time on.