Woodmaster CT broken tooth

[Tai Fu]

I tried to hand sharpen my woodmaster CT today. It actually worked. I used a diamond feather file and filed the top the front of each tooth, taking off very little material (it was more like cleaning it up rather than actually grinding it). The result was faster and better quality cut, although not like new. (blade still squealed like crazy, it didn't squeal at all when it was new)

While I was doing that I discovered 2 bad tooth. One the carbide has completely chipped off, while another tooth has minor chipping. I do not know what caused it or why it dulled so quickly. However the moral of this story is, I'm done with carbide tipped blades. It's way too expensive, requires a huge amount of tension. I will probably get the Woodmaster B if I needed another resaw blade. I know a guy who can sharpen them but I doubt he can sharpen carbide tipped blades at all, at least not with Lenox's special grind on them.

I found I could tension it to about 15,000 psi at the very most according to my dial indicator (.002" stretch over 5" span), before the tension handwheel became way too difficult to turn. The frame, wheel, and tension bar can handle more for sure (wheel is cast iron, tension bar is basically a 1" x 1" x 5" solid piece of steel, and frame is welded like almost all 18" bandsaws), but at 15,000 psi with Woodmaster CT the handwheel was so hard to turn that I really could not turn it anymore. I already stripped the tracking screw because as more tension was applied to the saw, it took more force to adjust the tracking. I fixed that and from now on I'm going to basically screw tracking knob all the way in before tension is applied, apply the tension, and only back the tension knob out (it takes less force to do this and it prevents the thread from stripping) to move the blade forward. I really don't understand the hoppla about 30,000 psi because at 15,000 psi (the most I could tension the blade before I need to replace the tension rod with a hydraulic ram) the blade is nearly impossible to deflect sideway, it doesn't slip off the wheel if no guide was used (I cut a small block of wood on it and forgot to move the thrust bearing in place, the saw did not know the difference)

So guys with other bandsaws (like say the MM16/20/24) how hard do you really have to turn that handwheel to tension your 1" carbide blade to 25,000 or 30,000 psi? I mean unless those saws really do have a hydraulic ram for tension rod... Or do you just tension to less than 30,000 (like say 15,000 or even less, like "next up on the scale) with perhaps the flutter method?

[John Lanciani]

So guys with other bandsaws (like say the MM16/20/24) how hard do you really have to turn that handwheel to tension your 1" carbide blade to 25,000 or 30,000 psi? I mean unless those saws really do have a hydraulic ram for tension rod... Or do you just tension to less than 30,000 (like say 15,000 or even less, like "next up on the scale) with perhaps the flutter method?

MM20, Trimaster, tension to 30k measured, no issues at all turning the handwheel to tension or track the blade. The only time I remove the blade from the saw is to replace it when dull, and I only de-tension if I know that the saw won't be used for a few weeks.

[Craig Behnke]

Tai

I have a bandsaw that was getting tough to turn the tension wheel after a few months of ownership. It was getting so tough that it felt like I was at max tension capability when the scale was registering no where close to that. I looked inside the saw at the tension mechanism and discovered where I could apply a little bit of grease to certain parts to aid the movement of the tensioning mechanism parts. It tensions perfectly now.

i have no idea if you can or should do that on your saw, but it's worth a call to the manufacturer to see if you can try that remedy.

[James White]

Tai,

I understand your frustration. I have trashed a carbide blade with hitting metal in a board. However I can't see going back to regular blades for resaw after experiencing the joy of a carbide blade.

You don't mention what saw you have. That may help. I have a Grizzly G514x2 19" saw and turning the tension wheel is not hard at all. The problem with tensioning a 1" carbide blade is that the spine of the saw is not ridged enough for that. Therefore the wheels need to bee non coplanar before tensioning so that after tensioning they will be coplanar. I should never have gotten a 1" blade. 3/4" blades are available.

I also wonder if you are over tensioning. Measuring blade stretch is a tricky operation and the smallest error can give you wild results. Are you using a tension gauge?

[Tai Fu]

I can't tell you what saw I have, it's a 18" bandsaw but without any identification of manufacture... nor can I find an equivalent model sold in the US market either.

Right, I hate using 1" blades. It's a bear to install and tension. I just can't seem to find any 3/4" blades out there that works, and as for 1/2" blades we're looking at 3TPI at the very least, they don't make 2 TPI blades in 1/2" unless you use Lenox #32 Wood. Woodmaster CT doesn't even cut that smoothly when new anyways, I'd say comparable to a Diemaster.

I don't have a bandsaw tension gauge so I can only go by measuring stretch... and it's tricky because I just measured it stretching .002" but yet a second try, tensioning the blade until it feels extremely tight measured barely .001" stretch over a 5" span... that can't be right. Problem is there might other parts moving in the dial indicator/caliper setup that I'm not sure if there's some backlash somewhere. When I say tight I try to deflect the blade without any support or guides (the blade near the spine), and I could get it to where it would take a considerable amount of force to deflect that stretch (I say about 30" of blade) by even 1/8". The saw and the cut runs very smoothly at that tension so maybe I'm just overthinking it.

[James White]

I can't tell you what saw I have, it's a 18" bandsaw but without any identification of manufacture... nor can I find an equivalent model sold in the US market either.

Right, I hate using 1" blades. It's a bear to install and tension. I just can't seem to find any 3/4" blades out there that works, and as for 1/2" blades we're looking at 3TPI at the very least, they don't make 2 TPI blades in 1/2" unless you use Lenox #32 Wood. Woodmaster CT doesn't even cut that smoothly when new anyways, I'd say comparable to a Diemaster.

I don't have a bandsaw tension gauge so I can only go by measuring stretch... and it's tricky because I just measured it stretching .002" but yet a second try, tensioning the blade until it feels extremely tight measured barely .001" stretch over a 5" span... that can't be right. Problem is there might other parts moving in the dial indicator/caliper setup that I'm not sure if there's some backlash somewhere. When I say tight I try to deflect the blade without any support or guides (the blade near the spine), and I could get it to where it would take a considerable amount of force to deflect that stretch (I say about 30" of blade) by even 1/8". The saw and the cut runs very smoothly at that tension so maybe I'm just overthinking it.

Exactly my point! I have used a dial caliper clamped to the blade method. But I have to repeat it several times to be sure I was getting an accurate reading. Also how much tension should be on the blade prior to claming on your measuring device. That will change the result dramatically as well.

With no branding on your saw. I would suspect a low quality. Unless it was removed.

I don't know if they ship internationally. But this will likely be my next resaw blade. They also offer resharpening.

http://www.lagunatools.com/accessories/resawking/bandsaw-resawking75

James

[Tai Fu]

im not sure, its awlfully expensive and I have heard not good things about them other than price.

Also 45 dollars for resharpening seems kinda expensive... I think I should probably go with a bimetal blade that can be resharpened professionally...

[James White]

Now you have my attention. Bimetal that can be resharpened! I inquired about getting a bandsaw blade resharpned and was told it was only the big industrial blades that could be done. If that service is available for our size machines. That would be great. Because those blades when sharp do a great job. The problem is they don't last too long.

Can anyone point me to a service for sharpening bandsaw blades? I am in CT.

[Tai Fu]

I think the most important thing is tooth pitch... I mean the guy I talk to simply will not touch anything finer than 3 TPI so I imagine any resaw type blade should be able to be sharpened. However I really do not know the fatigue life of those 1" .035 bands (I have not seen any sign of metal fatigue and I do not detention when not in use) so not sure how many sharpenings I can get before the band will break. If it says anything I bought the Woodmaster CT at the beginning of last year. That guy only have blades for 26" bandsaws... I really wanted one before (someone was selling them for the same price I paid for the new 18" bandsaw currently in my shop) but due to its size, I was afraid it would not even fit through the door. It also weights over 400kg so I was not sure if I could fit it in my shop. If they made bimetal version of woodslicers it would be heaven, and I'm sure bandmill sharpeners can sharpen them, if they are 2T or so.

Really big problem with carbide is they chip so easily and can't be sharpened at all, without paying big money for the service (and you can't realistically sharpen Woodmaster CT).

The guy I talked to charges $2.50 to resharpen each blade. I was even thinking to save money, I can dremel sharpen them a few times until the gullet needs shaping, then take it to him for that. I suspect by then the band will fatigue. I'll check and see if he is able to sharpen 1/2" 3T blades...

[Tai Fu]

Regarding my bandsaw... I am sure it's probably lower quality 18 inch bandsaw. I went for it because at my budget, I could choose between a Steel City granite 14" bandsaw (which is basically a Delta cast iron clone), a 14" welded steel bandsaw with built in 12" resaw height, or the 18" saw. I chose the 18" saw because it has a bigger motor than the other two, it has a larger wheel size which means less blade breakage and larger choice of blades, and it was heavier built too. I paid only about 1000 USD for this bandsaw including delivery so it was cheap, even cheaper than those Grizzly 17" bandsaws or the G0514X2. Initially it had its problems but I upgraded the fence which really turned this from a lemon into a power machine. Biggest problem I had with this saw is vibrations... but it turns out it was a matter of tuning the saw, and adjusting the lower wheel assembly (only now I realized it could even be adjusted at all) really helped to remove almost all vibration.

[Herr Dalbergia]

Hello,

1. It is possible to resharpen the CT.
2. How many sets did you resaw with the CT, and which species?
3. Try resawing dalbergia melanoxylon with anything else than carbide blade....one blade for each flitch...if this is even enough.
4. The Resawing King is a fine blade, but the TPI may be quite high for some aplications.

Please post some pics of your saw and your results. Of course the ct is a nice blade. When you are sawing / resawing only "normal" wood (maple, oak, walnut, mahogany etc...) these blades can last really long.

If you are feeding your saw with the stuff I know you are feeding you saw with ( Bubinga, padouk, African Blackwood, Ebony....) these CT also wont last for 5 years.

Resawing about 50 sets of heavy figured Eucalyptus and your CT is done. With anything else than a CT or a RSK you can change your blade after one set.

I have the feeling you have too high expectations from your blade, and also from your saw.


Cheers, Alex

[Tai Fu]

Yea, I did resaw some african blackwood and bubinga on it. I made about 3 sets of bubinga, but only resawn a few sets of african blackwood bridge and fingerboard. I mean the CT still has some life in it but its definitely not as good as new... How exactly do you resharpen the CT? Do you know anyone who will do it?

[Mike Heidrick]

While I was doing that I discovered 2 bad tooth. One the carbide has completely chipped off, while another tooth has minor chipping. I do not know what caused it or why it dulled so quickly. However the moral of this story is, I'm done with carbide tipped blades.

Its because you are cutting aluminum extrusions all the time and other metals as you have posted about in the past on the woodmaster. :confused: Post a picture of the saw. I am curious how you got a big saw in your shop that is up a steep hill with no vehicle access. Bet that was a feat.

[Jamie Buxton]

... It is possible to resharpen the CT...

Please explain how.

[Mike Heidrick]

Tai, if you have all those easy machinist job shops local that do one off jobs all the time no problem, why not ask them for service help?

Dave Ehrbe at Sanders Tools in Peoria IL can resharpen Lenox blades including the trimaster and woodmaster.

[Tai Fu]

Be careful what you wish for... (a lot of pictures)

I got this saw up a steep hill by taking the upper wheel, table, and motor off and carrying them up separately which made the weight more manageable. The frame isn't all that heavy so it only required 2 people. I think the saw's posted weight is like 133kg which I'm not sure (perhaps its posting that weight with aluminum wheels). This one has cast iron wheel so it probably weights more than its posted weight. The fence isn't stock, I replaced it with Grizzly's 19" resaw fence. For aluminum extrusion I only cut one corner off of that extrusion... I was too lazy to change blade and I think it cost me (it may have been what chipped the tooth). What do they charge to resharpen a CT? I can't imagine getting more than one sharpening from it, the carbide tip is so small.
281129281130281131
281132281133281134281135281136

[Tai Fu]

More pictures of the bandsaw

Guide was originally steel block, I replaced it with a piece of ebony soaked in oil. The guide adjustment really sucks, it required a bunch of wrenches to move them, I replaced the top guide bolt with wing nuts to make that easier but I do not know where to get tool free set screws for the thrust bearing and guide blocks.

Lower guide adjustment is a nightmare, I almost do nothing to it because it requires you to remove the table to be able to adjust them fully. Problem is the cast aluminum trunnion isn't that good... I remove the table with its trunnion to make the work painless but getting it back on is more difficult than getting it off, since there's a loose bolt inside the trunnion that needs to be threaded through a tiny hole (think threading soft silk thread through a tiny needle hole) while moving the heavy table around to get that bolt through...

If I move to another country, like the US, I'm getting a Grizzly g0514x2.

281138281139

[Chris Fournier]

Why don't you tension the blade in your shop as you see fit and then take a test cut? If it works you are golden, if not tension some more, the actual PSI of the setting is academic. Try to be practical and you will succeed. You seem to like to paint yourself into corners and then shout out for help. Help that is not needed if you are logical and practical.

I'm sure that I will catch some flack for this post but anyone responding to this post of mine should read your post about being around cheap macihne shop services and then your next post where you propose doing some metal machining in your shop that clearly should be farmed out the the "metal alley" that you bragged about.

god helps those that help themselves.

[Tai Fu]

I guess I obsess myself with numbers and stuff and fail to look at the practical side of things. I just thought since when I got this blade new it didn't really cut with glue ready finish that people were reporting with carbide blades, so I thought maybe if I increased tension to 30,000 psi it will have better finish. But now I think it's just the nature of the blade since people who reported those finish were using resaw king or trimasters.

The finish I get from Woodmaster CT seems on par with Diemasters, and it still needs sanding or planing to clean it up. When I cut guitar sets I set the tension quite loose, and it still cuts fairly well. I do notice the saw runs smoother on this blade with increased tension however.

[Chris Fournier]

A glue ready finish off of a bandsaw? That would be a game changer Tai. Bandsaws are break out tools for the most part.

[Mike Heidrick]

Sure that saw is rated for a 1" blade. It looks like a lightweight (non tri frame) Jet. Have you considered a 1/2" resaw king?

[Jamie Buxton]

A glue ready finish off of a bandsaw? That would be a game changer Tai. Bandsaws are break out tools for the most part.

I regularly bandsaw veneer, and glue it to a substrate without any further work. It is a glue surface right off the saw. Carbide blade.

[John Lanciani]

I regularly bandsaw veneer, and glue it to a substrate without any further work. It is a glue surface right off the saw. Carbide blade.

As I have posted before, I do as well. Right from the saw to the vacuum bag.

[John Lanciani]

281130


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=281130&d=1391045880 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=281130&d=1391045880)

It sure looks like there should be a tension spring between the nut and the top of the yoke on the tension mechanism. There is room there for one and it would certainly make sense. Might explain many of the issues you're having if there are parts mssing from the saw.

[Chris Fournier]

Jamie and John, Tai was talking about guitar parts and I didn't see the straight to glue up application there, mostly edges and faces of the saw. For vaclams then sure. I still pass my veneer throught the sander in my shop, not as brave as you or possible not as good at the bandsaw!

[Tai Fu]

I think I might be able to fit a spring in there somewhere, but not sure if there is enough space to... the bracket needs to be longer. Also I do not know where to get the right spring, because the only aftermarket springs are for Delta 14 inch clones, and I do not know how to order from iturra designs.

[Herr Dalbergia]

Tai, stop wasting money and time in this bandsaw. This is a very cheap built, way to light weight bandsaw if you want to get serious into resawing. It will work, sometime, but for what price for? For guitarbuilding this bandsaw will be fine the next 2000 years. For resawing exotic hardwoods for guitars, this bandsaw will always be a pain in the ass.

It is really sad that you invest so much money and energy and somehow you quite often run into problems, seems like Taiwan is not and easy place to buy and get things. My highest respect for your work and energy. But you can not change that saw.

But back to topic. What is your actuall problem? The blade starts getting dull? One theeth is broken off? Ok...buy a new CT, or try another blade.

Something totally different: Can it be, that your blade is now just normal? Every fresh blade, knive etc is oversharpend in the beginning. It cuts very nice, but quite soon, this first hyper-sharpness is gone and your tool will preform on a certain level. On this level it may stay longer or shorter.

I remeber posting you, think it was in the OLF, that you need few seconds for resawing a back. Thats for a brand new blade. When the balde is used a bit, it takes longer.

As far as I know the CT is made for wood. i never use it on metal and I wouldnt do. Of course, physicalle, this blade should be able to do aluminium, but I will never try....

My good old Bäuerle has also no spring, btw. I crank the blade tension up, as far as I can, more or less. Never had a broken blade, and drift does not exist. If you want to experience this, your saw hast to be heavy, really heavy. I have no guess how much psi i am putting into the blade, i also totally dont care...

For resharpening the CT:

I work as a guitarbuilder, but also in a veneer and sawmill as a salesman. I just gave the blde to the guy from our sharpening room, told him, this blade can not be resharpend. He laughed, and 30 minutes late came back with a sharp blade. Just a normal (bigger?) machine for sharpening bandsaw blades. And of course this guys 35 years experience in operating this machine.

So, first ask yourself what your goal is, and then start thinking about a way to get there....

If you a ever in europe, contact me, you are heavily invited to inspect my resaw bandsaw and our sawmill and my workshop.

cheers, alex

[Tai Fu]

Yea, number of bandsaws are limited here, and the choices I get (for a higher price) seems to net me equally low quality product. I guess I just expect too much out of my saw because a 1/4" 6T blade (new) seems to cut maple neck blank faster than the CT, yet I never had any problem resawing guitar sized woods, but it just required harder push than before. I guess I can just give the woodmaster CT to the blade sharpener and ask if he can sharpen it...

I do not know when I will be in Europe next, I am applying for a guitarmaking school in the UK and I'm not sure what that will involve, it's mostly one step at a time with that. I'd love to have a MM20 in the shop...

One major logistics problem I do face is how do I get rid of or sell old machines that I no longer need or want? With smaller machines in the past I could put it on ebay and other hobbyists might want it, but the machines I now have is too large to move reasonably. I'm thinking of calling machinery dealers and ask them to buy it back. Won't get as much out of it but logistically it might work better.