Table Saw Inferiority Complex

[John Emwonk]

Hi

I have a 12 year old $200 Craftsman table saw.

The blade has play, the miter gauge flops around in its track and the fence surely rivals the rest of the working parts in terms of low performance.

I found an article here by a guy who makes nice cutting boards. He mentions needing a fence that will read 1/32, and alignment to within .001" front to back of the blade.

What is the minimum price I must pay to get cuts that accurate Which model to you recommend? My space is very limited, so it cannot take up more floor space than my current saw.

Thanks

[Kelby Van Patten]

Most cabinet saws will get you a high level of accuracy. You should be able to pick up a used Unisaw for under $1000. You may need an upgraded fence system as well for an older model. If you're willing to spend $2500-$3000, you can get a very nice new cabinet saw (Powermatic, SawStop, etc.) that should come with a very good fence system as well.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Are you making end grain boards? Invest in a drum sander, that is money well spent.

[Jim Andrew]

I had an old Craftsman table saw, bought it used and ran it for 25 years, planned to get a new motor and a new fence for it when fixing up my retirement shop, and the cost of a fence and motor made buying a new unisaw look reasonable. Biesemeyer fence, long rails. No comparison between the saws. You can put a unisaw on a mobile base and move it around as space allows. Short rails and it will fit in the same space as your craftsman.

[Peter Quinn]

I'd be looking for a hybrid type saw in the 1 3/4HP to 2HP range, maybe not a full blown cabinet saw if your needs don't require it, something with an accurate fence, iron top, short rails if space is limited and you don't intend to rip sheet goods or large table tops regularly. Google "hybrid table saw" for a list of ideas, many vendors in that range, i.e. Laguna, Grizzly, Craftsman, DeWalt, Jet, etc. My Dad had one of those ubiquitous craftsman table saws with the motor hanging off the back, delta contractor saw knock off. Scary stuff, like chitty chitty bang bang but with a sharp whirling blade. Last time I used it was to help build crates for his move during retirement....I wanted to ship the saw to a different address! Guess I'm just too used to cabinet saws to consider using anything less. A good hybrid is going to give you the cabinet saw experience and accuracy, just not as much muscle on the top end, and not as much weight, or cost. If you have the resources a compact cabinet saw would be a good option too, short rails, folding out feed, mobile base, but don't feel compelled to go to that level to improve your experience.

[scott spencer]

Depending on which Cman saw you have, you could very well have the potential for good accuracy. The old King-Seeley, Emerson, and even the TTI/Ryobi made Cman cast iron contractor saws have good potential for precision. The early fences were pretty poor, so if you've got a sloppy fence, that's the first thing I'd look to improve. The Align-a-rip, Ridgid, Delta T2, and Mulecab fences are all good bangs for the buck...the Align-a-rip will be a direct bolt on, and the Ridgid fence might be. A crosscut sled can help overcome the sloppy miter gauge, and so can a good aftermarket gauge like an Incra or Osborne. There's a serpentine belt and ribbed pulley kit on Ebay for < $30 shipped. With a well chosen bargain blade (http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/36699) and good alignment, you should have sufficient precision. (Irwin Marples, Freud Diablo, Freud Industrial, CMT Industrial, CMT ITK Plus, or early DW Precision Trim...all < $50)

If your saw is a smaller cheaper saw with little upside potential, I'd definitely look to sell it and get one that is....used or new. Any decent full size belt drive saw with an induction motor that's setup well, has a good blade, and a decent fence should offer sufficient precision.

[Frederick Skelly]

John, a unisaw will be SWEET if you can swing the cost. Another option is to buy a used contractor saw. I bought a 20 yr old delta with a 52" Biesemeyer fence for $400 a few years back. That fence is rock solid accurate and, to my knowledge, there is no play in the blade. A no frills but accurate miter guage runs around $100. Watch your local Craigs List, etc and be patient.

I definitely understand your frustration. I started with a direct drive benchtop saw and always seemed to have trouble getting the accuracy I was looking for. Edit: Until I got that Biesemeyer.

Best of luck!
Fred

[Jeff Duncan]

I can't really answer your question as they're are too many variables. For instance, I paid $135 for one of my Unisaws, but that was at auction and is a 3 phase saw. So probably not a good way to gauge minimum prices for saws:o In general accuracy and precision cost money. The more accurate something needs to be, the more it's going to cost. Now we can work around that by buying used equipment that maybe needs a bit of attention and save ourselves a lot of money. In the used market around me one can readily find something like a used single phase Unisaw for in the range of $500-$600.

A hybrid saw can be had for cheaper, and one in good condition would likely do everything you need. I'm not familiar with their prices used or new anymore, but back in my previous life when I sold tools for a living I remember them being pretty affordable for a decent saw…..say in the $500-$600 range.

Most importantly is to get whatever you have and tune it well. Now some saws may be too flimsy or light and may not tune as well…..or hold once tuned. But you don't necessarily need to go out and spend a boat load of cash to make good cuts. My very first table saw was the Ryobi 3000 something or other, it was brand new and had some neat features which at that time I thought would do everything I needed. I got a lot of work out the door and made money with that saw before I realized it was too light duty for my needs:D Since then I've upgraded several times and have some nice cabinet saws now. However as much as guys poke fun at them, if I needed a saw for home use, (for all those projects I'll get to someday), I think I'd still be plenty happy with one;)

good luck,
JeffD

[glenn bradley]

Good info here but, I still have the main question: Is this a good Craftsman badged saw that you picked up used for $200 or is this an entry level / job saw, circa 2000 Craftsman badged direct drive saw? I do not mean this derogatorily. I just don't want you to start trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The form factor of the saw (job site or contractor) will also give us an idea of your current tool's footprint. A cabinet saw has a much smaller footprint than a contractor but, not as small as a direct drive job site saw generally speaking.

If, as Scott noted, this is a reasonable quality machine that just bears the Craftsman label, things like an after market fence, miter gauge, belt and pulleys can do wonders and get you to your goal. If it is a limited capability (read built to achieve a low price point) saw, I would look to replace.

Endgrain cutting boards are often made from 1-1/2" or larger stock so you will want something that can rip and crosscut this sort of material without fatigue. A decently designed and appointed, well aligned contractor saw with the appropriate rip and crosscut blades can certainly do this for you. One worked for me for many years.

If your current saw is a contractor with a model number starting with 113. (Emerson), a 103. (King Sealy), or other fairly heavy cast iron beast with standard miter slots and table depth (27") I would look to tune it up. If not you have options but, you gave us no budget so these answers may be poor . . .

- Buy a used quality contractor saw for $50 - $200. Add another $300 or so for the add-ons required to bring it up to the level you state you are after.
- Buy a saw that meets your requirements.

Asking the minimum you would have to pay will get you some pretty subjective answers (just like the ones I am giving). Different people like and dislike certain things. Some people hate Grizzly for some reason. With the exception of their lathes I think most Powermatic equipment is way over priced as is most Jet equipment. Some folks like old iron and prefer euro machines but, no matter what you got for $200 12 years ago, I don't think the footprint of a combo machine would be close ;-)

Shoot us some more info like your current saw's footprint, your budget, your current dust collection capabilities and so forth and you will probably get much more specific answers.

[Lee Schierer]

Hi

I have a 12 year old $200 Craftsman table saw.

The blade has play, the miter gauge flops around in its track and the fence surely rivals the rest of the working parts in terms of low performance.

Not much you can do about this except replace the saw.

I found an article here by a guy who makes nice cutting boards. He mentions needing a fence that will read 1/32, and alignment to within .001" front to back of the blade.

An after market Beismeyer fence will stay square each and every time you move it, but it will cost more than you paid for your saw. You don't need to stay within .001 when working with wood. Wood will move that much from one day to the next just with ambient moisture changes

What is the minimum price I must pay to get cuts that accurate Which model to you recommend? My space is very limited, so it cannot take up more floor space than my current saw.

Keep your eyes open for a 1980's 113 model craftsman saw. They show up periodically in the want ads and craigs list. Get one with a cast iron top, avoid the aluminum tops.

Thanks

Hope this helps.

[Chris Parks]

I like the bit about 001" accuracy, some people live in dreamland. Get real, it is a tablesaw not a mill, the fence is static and it is safer to have toe out than parallel and cuts as well either parallel or toeing out.

[Steve Mellott]

If you are looking for repeatable accurate cuts, the Incra fence is hard to beat. Major downside however - it takes up a lot of floor space.

[John Emwonk]

Hope this helps.


Yes. Thank you Lee.

[scott spencer]

John - What type of saw do you have? Benchtop, full size cast iron?

[John Emwonk]

Scott, I think it's this one... Limited edition.

280814

[scott spencer]

Scott, I think it's this one... Limited edition.

280814

Thanks for clarifying....looks like a direct drive bench saw with a universal motor on a leg stand. A decent blade, optimized blade to fence alignment, and a crosscut sled are your best bets to maximize what that saw can do. You can build a work station around it, but it's a lot of work and possibly expense. Unless it has some sentimental value, I'd lean toward selling it for what you can get, and putting the proceeds toward a full size belt drive cast iron saw with an induction motor that has better bones and more upgrade potential....

The ABCs of Table Saws (http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/32154)

[Steve Schoene]

The .001 spec. is not a wood dimension, it is a machine spec. that is relevant to burning wood on rips and kickback possibilities. It's not an impossible thing, pretty much achievable on any cabinet saw and for 90 degree cuts on contractor saws. Not so sure about worksite saws as I've never owned one.

[John Emwonk]

Thanks for the recommendation. I just picked up an old Craftsman 113 as suggested, for $100.

I need to figure out how to put it back together. Does anybody happen to have a manual or know where I can get one?

I checked blade alignment before I bought and found it is little off. Am I correct that can be adjusted by adjusting the trunion? Whatever that is.

Thank you.

[Curt Harms]

I had a Craftsman 113.xxxx, good saw, sold it when I got a good deal on a closeout Griz 1023. Some people buy these to help with alignment. They might help to keep the trunnions from shifting too:

http://in-lineindustries.com/products/contractor-saw-pals/

They help to move the trunnions more precisely than tapping with a mallet and hold the trunnions in position while tightening things up. It's annoying to get everything lined up perfectly, tighten the nuts and the bloody thing shifted from torquing the nut. PALS not indispensible, I didn't have them but if I still had the Craftsman saw, I probably would. The manual link on that site might help give an idea how to go about aligning your saw. You don't need an a-line-it and dial indicator to do a good job. I used a combination square & feeler gauge. Some people have made a wooden jig shaped like a cross. One arm rides snugly in the miter gauge, the other arm has a screw driven in the end. The screw is adjusted so it's a few thousands from the blade. Use a feeler gauge to check the distance from the screw to the blade. If the distance from the screw to the blade is the same front and back, the blade is aligned to the miter slot. Measure from the screw to the blade plate, not the tooth. It's a good idea to use the same spot on the blade plate. Mark a tooth, check against the blade plate with the feeler gauge then rotate the blade so you can measure from the same spot.

[Andy Cree]

http://www.wordsnwood.com/2002/rev-saw/50-175.jpg

Still learning so please take my advice for what it is worth... I started out with a $125 (on sale) Craftsman direct drive table saw. I now have the General International 50-185 saw like what is pictured in the link. I just checked their website and it appears as if that model (or even on like it) is no longer offered. The price point for this saw was $650. There is no comparison between the Craftsman model I had and the table saw I have now. When I purchased it back in 2006, it was rated very high for the price point and has served me well. Everything above the table is decent - full cast iron extensions, 50" rail, and Beismier fence. My only complaint with the saw is it has lousy dust collection which caused me to have to retro-fit a few covers to control the dust and allow my dust collector to hook up to it properly.

I cannot see me selling this saw anytime soon (because of finances, not want...) I would probably save up a few more dollars and find a true cabinet saw. Depending on what you plan on using the table saw for will determine how much saw you will need. For me, I do not think I would get any less saw that I have now. As far as end grain cutting boards go, I find that I struggle during the glue-up if the pieces were not cut square and parallel - that is something I could not do with that first Craftsman saw I purchased.

Andy

[Prashun Patel]

Good luck with your new saw...

However, if your goal is to make nice cutting boards, then I think you could have gotten by with your old saw.

If it makes straight enough cuts that result in gap-less glue ups, you can make plenty of nice cutting boards with it (provided it has the power to go through any thicker stock you may wish to use).

Better money is (IMHO) invested in something to flatten the boards after final glue up. That would be a (cheap) belt sander or (better) a drum sander.

A 'better' saw really shows its worth when cutting thick stock and critically, when cutting joinery. But a cutting board is more akin to a panel glueup than making a chair.

[Chris Friesen]

The .001 spec. is not a wood dimension, it is a machine spec. that is relevant to burning wood on rips and kickback possibilities. It's not an impossible thing, pretty much achievable on any cabinet saw and for 90 degree cuts on contractor saws.

Just remember that the blade is going to magnify any out-of-true on the arbor and may itself not be perfectly flat.

So when aligning the fence to the blade, the best bet is to rotate the blade by hand and use the same tooth front and back.

[Chris Friesen]

I found an article here by a guy who makes nice cutting boards. He mentions needing a fence that will read 1/32, and alignment to within .001" front to back of the blade.

What is the minimum price I must pay to get cuts that accurate?

If your saw cuts wood safely that's all you actually need. You can remove blade marks and burn marks with a planer/sander/jointer/handplane. That said, a more accurate saw that will let you go to glue-up right off the saw will certainly speed things up and minimize hassle.