Tavern Table Project

[Sean Hughto]

So, I’m starting on a tavern table project, and thought I’d start a thread about for those that might like to follow along or maybe even are interested in building a similar table.

For generations, painters have copied past masterworks as an exercise to gain insights into the master’s techniques. While looking alone can tell you some things you might use in your own paintings, actually trying to copy a work teaches a different set of things about process and how to achieve certain effects, for example. See http://www.geraldking.com/Copying.htm

I have so little time for woodworking that I mostly like to follow my own nose and make my own visions rather than reproduce anything. I have made a good number of projects that are based on a well-established form – a Windsor stool, a Shaker cabinet, or whatever. But I’ve never sought to closely copy a particular piece.

So this tavern table project is a first for me. I want to reproduce this circa 1720 example as closely as possible. It hits on all cylinders for me – I’d like to own the original, but as I never will, the next best thing is to try to make one for myself that hopefully will successfully hit the key notes that make it appealing to me. I like the turnings. I like all the proportions. I like the splay in both directions. I like the distressed paint bottom and aged maple top.

Also, as I alluded to when I started, I have no doubt that in endeavoring to reproduce this masterwork, I will learn a lot of very valuable lessons. I’ve only just begun, but so far I’m a happy apprentice sitting at the knee of an 18th Century guru taking notes and nodding appreciatively.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3803/12091367183_65132ac6fb_c.jpg

So this table (Fine Point of Furniture – Good, Better, Best at page 257) is just shy of 25 inches tall. The oval top is around 20” x 30”.

I began by trying to turn the legs. Working from some basic overall measurements and a single small photo is a real challenge. You can see the basic elements of the legs pretty well in the photo, but the transitions and details are tough to judge with certainty – at least for me. And how big a blank, and how big each element, and so forth. So get ready to waste a few sticks trying to figure it out.

After trying a few other sizes, I decided one and three-quarter inch sticks was the right size to my eye. And after trying some different transitions, details, and spacing, I came up with a version that satisfied me. Then to make 3 more that roughly match! One has to decide how tight-a$$ed you want to be about the perfection of matches. I think one of the things I like about the original is that the turnings are similar, but not perfect like a machine (compare the bulbs of the long vases, for example). So I wanted to strike that balance Richard Raffan described as perfect enough to not look amateurish, but imperfect enough to have some soul and the life that comes from hand work. I didn’t use any calipers, just trusted myeye. Marking the ends and the thinnest spot/transitions with a pencil was enough of a guide to arrive at these.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3811/12091367253_8ca14537bd_c.jpg


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3757/12091367583_7d6ab77b60_c.jpg


So these are far from perfect in being perfect duplicates,but I’m satisfied. This weekend I hope to do some mortises and tackle the apron and stretchers on the splay. Thanks for reading, And I’m glad to answer any questions. More to come.

[Mel Fulks]

I have always liked that form. The old ones I've seen are not sanded and the turnings can be a little bumpy and wavy which is nice in candle light . You might also want to make a pair of "joint stools", very much like the table .They were often used to support coffins ,and with a board across them they make a nice temporary serving board. Looking forward to seeing the completed project.

[Chris Griggs]

Neat! And...what whilst thou be drinking at ye ole tavern table? A pint of meed for thou good sir?

[Sean Hughto]

I found that with a skew and using my left hand to support the stick, I could get pretty smooth surfaces. Trouble was, I could also get a catch now that then that ruined a couple sticks (usually near completion!). So I used a skew where catches were not a big risk and a gouge where I wanted to be safer. The gouge invariably chattered on some parts, and I sanded a bit to get back to the pristine skew-like surface. Maybe on my next one I'll see what I can I do right off the blade with no sandpaper, but this time I was running out of 8/4 maple!

[Sean Hughto]

Craft beers - local if possible - Slainte!

[Will Boulware]

Watching this with quite a bit of interest! I love that form and I'm interested to see how you handle the tenons. Also, I just ordered the book you referenced. This place is great at growing my library and shrinking my bank account...

[Chris Griggs]

Craft beers - local if possible - Slainte!

In that case may I recommended the Flying Dog Horn Dog Barley Wine, brewed in Frederick MD!

Okay, done being goofy (though it is good stuff). I do like form an awful lot. Makes me pissed that I don't have a lathe still. Are you going to put a finished on it that makes it looked aged or are you going to make it look new?

[Mel Fulks]

Some of those tables show catches left and just turned to the inside, same thing with windsor chairs. I'm sure you will end up with good result ....even without period defects.

[Sean Hughto]

There's too many flying things in craft beer - Flying fish - Flying dog - Dog Fish head - etc. Makes my head spin. Lately I've been liking Bells (MI), Stone (CA), Bear Republic (CA), and Brooklyn (NY). The Port City stuff here in Alexandria is great too.

I plan to use milk paint - sand it back and not worry if the wood shows through here and there - and then BLO. The top may get some dye to pumpkin it up and some varnish - we'll see.

[David Weaver]

Very nice crisp turning, Sean.

Like Chris, I am lathe handicapped (though just with a midi lathe instead of none at all). Love the skew, but have the same problems (just like everyone else) sometimes.

[Sean Hughto]

Yeah, I had some catches that would have been easy to hide that way, but I guess I'm a bit too OCD. The rectangle to cylinder curve can be tough cause you are cutting so much air and can't ride the bevel. I finally figured out how to make the stroke with less risk by presenting the middle of the wide skew and coming around as the minute you present the lower corner and it hops the gap, you risk a catch! It is amazing how much faster you get with repetition. First few were plodding, but by the end, I could knock out the pattern pretty quick. No doubt the original turner could make a leg every 5 minutes~!

[Mike Allen1010]

Sean,

I love the table. Beautiful job with the turned the legs – I especially like the subtle profiles/shadow lines – very neat and appealing to the eye!

Thanks for posting the pictures I will follow with interest. My current project requires some turning, which I've never done, so your comments and cautions about "catching" are very helpful. The whole lathething seems pretty scary to me but I guess I have to give it a shot.

Thanks again Sean for sharing.

All the best, Mike

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks for the interest and comments, Mike.

Before I got a lathe, I was pretty intimidated by the idea of turning and especially the prospect of catches. Turned out to not be that bad at all. If you have some experience in applying blades to wood - chisels, drawknives, spokeshaves, carving tools, etc., you already have a useful understanding of how to present the turning tools to the stock. After learning the basics of each tool, it's then just practice. And catches on spindles are frustrating becuase they can ruin a piece, but they don't tend to be too scary or dangerous (wear a face shield or at least safety glasses, of course). Now with bowls or other big hunks, you can have some scary catches or broken pieces fly at you, so that requires more protect care and practice, but spindles are pretty friendly. Best, lathes are a blast ... totally fun ... and addictive too! By the way, I don't consider myself an expert turner by any stretch. I can successfully make stuff and have a few years of experience under my belt, but I wouldn't presume to teach a class or anything!

I'm probably better at bowls than spindles right now:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5168/5252554450_3dc6e60e79_b.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8043/8421570003_bf69137037_c.jpg

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks for taking the time to post your project, Sean.

I like the table and I'm interested is seeing the build progress. I've never built a table of this style and have no turning experience, so it's all new to me.

I like yor reasoning for making a copy. I've often been reluctant to attempt a copy or even work directly from published plans. It always felt somehow unauthentic or as if I were painting by numbers. In hindsight, that thinking might be a little arrogant. If I admire a particular piece, understanding in detail how it was built and why certian things were done seems like valueble experience.

[glenn bradley]

I think those legs came out splendidly. Thanks for posting your project.

[Bob Glenn]

I'm interested in the build also. Are you going to angle the tenons or the mortises? Cutting angled tenons would be weaker than straight tenons into angled mortises. I've just started a tapered leg shaker table. The legs are done and I'm thinking I will make a jig to hold them in position, while I measure the mortise angles and compound skirt angles surrounding the tenons. Its going to get interesting!

[Sean Hughto]

Bob, I may be in for a rude awakening, but I don't foresee having to angle either thr mortises or the tenons in the way i think you mean. The gluing walls of the mortises will be perpendicular to the faces of the rectangular sections and the cheeks of the tenons will be parallel to the log axes of the stretchers and aprons. The tenons and shoulders will be angled across the width of the stretchers and apron members, and the top and bottom of mortises will need a bit af angling I guess, but not like a federal chair m&ts or anything.

[Frederick Skelly]

I think you met your goal on the turnings Sean. Ill look forward to reading your future installments.

I never thought about copying a work to apprentice, but once you point it out I definitely "get it". Thanks for pointing it out to me.

Enjoy!
Fred

[jamie shard]

Sean, you might be in for a rude awakening... I'm not totally sure, but I think that when the posts are splayed in two directions, you lose the easy ability to be perpendicular to square posts. I know just enough to be dangerous, so I'm just going to recommend looking at t thecarpentryway blog and search on "splayed post". Hope this helps!

[Christopher Pine]

Those look great! I think the non exactness of these elements lends it self to the character and uniqueness of the project. I like the differences like that even though to me they look darn close! Looking forward to the progress on this! Love the table and project!

Chris

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheChrisPineWorkshop

[Sean Hughto]

http://www.finewoodworking.com/fwnpdffree/free-plan-splay-legged-table.pdf

[Mike Hutchison]

Sean
By the time you get those legs at their respective corners
anyone claiming to see incongruity between them should be
bounced out of the place. Very nice turning.

[Bob Glenn]

Sean, I read the FFW article in your last post. That is the table I'm building, although I hadn't seen this article before. I did take note that at the beginning of the article the author said he added a cockbead to the bottom of the skirt to cover up any tenon joint problems. I made a double splayed sided baby cradle once, and found out that the angle between the splayed sides was not 90 degrees. The more the sides are splayed, the greater the angle between the two faces increases. I think we will be facing this problem during our project builds. However, I am thinking with the slight splay on the legs, the angle may not change enough to prevent assembly. With my narrow legs, I'm concerned that forcing the assembly might split the leg at the mortise. Let's stay on top of this. As I said, this will get interesting. Bob

[Sean Hughto]

Agreed. FWIW, I think about it like this: If I made some "A"s with square sticks, the faces would still be at 90, and I could use them to make other "A"s perpendicular to the first. Right?

[Jim Koepke]

Looks better than my little bedside table with turned legs. Glad to hear I am not the only one who can't get the legs to match perfectly.


There's too many flying things in craft beer

Lots of flying things from Mendocino Brewing in Hopland, CA. But they are all birds like; Blue Heron, White Hawk, Eye of the Hawk, etc.

jtk

[Sean Hughto]

Okay, so I'm realizing that it is a major challenge to figure out proportions, angles, and relationships from a tiny picture. What I wouldn't give for five minutes alone in a room with the original to take ten or twelve quick measurements! So instead of chopping mortises and cutting tenons, as I hoped, this weekend has been about mock ups - lots of mock-ups. It's coming, but the puzzle still needs work before I commit to a plan.

I started with a mock top from scrap ply. Most of you likely know the nail and string bit to draw nice ovals:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3784/12159123806_98bf76f97a_c.jpg

For newbies to ovals, draw the axes and mark where you want the perimeter to fall on each; tap in some nails equidistant from the center; make a loop of string big enough to go around the pins and hit your perimeter when stretched by your pencil; I like to notch the pencil to hold the string; and then keeping the string taught, draw the oval. If it is too narrow or not the size you wanted, a bit of trial and error with the nails and the length of the loop will make quick work of arriving at a pleasing oval. Cut it out with whatever saw you like from jig, to band, to bow.

And then various mock-ups to try to figure the sizes of the rectangles at the top and bottom and consequent angle at the appropriate height. Seems somewhere around 12 degrees so far, assuming the splay is the same in both directions? More work is needed to figure out optinal apron lengths etc. I've even tried a slightly larger oval too. More to come.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2819/12158698593_caa346ce2b_c.jpg
That's a reject leg in this rough test mock up - see, even rejects can be useful (just like my teachers and bosses have been telling me all my life!).

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/12158700163_bd8e683c43_c.jpg

More tests and figuring and assessing ... and cursing. ;-)

[Bob Glenn]

Sean, looking at your last picture above, I am now thinking that you may be right. It looks like you have the square legs splayed out both ways and have successfully clamped boards against both faces. I sure hope this is the case, it will make this build a lot easier. I haven't gotten to your stage of the mock up yet, maybe tomorrow. Stay tuned!

[Jim Koepke]

There are quite a few ways to draw an ellipse (oval?).

Here is one that is more predictable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMNO47yoI4

Here is an old one here on SMC with one similar to the one in the video:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?41156-drawing-a-ellipse

Set the large axis pin to pencil distance and then move the pin down the short groove and the intersection of the two axis is where the pin is placed for the minor axis.

This is similar to what I tend to do in the shop using a framing square.

jtk

[Sean Hughto]

Each to their own. I like the nails and string. It suits me.

[jamie shard]

Agreed. FWIW, I think about it like this: If I made some "A"s with square sticks, the faces would still be at 90, and I could use them to make other "A"s perpendicular to the first. Right?

If you imagine a table to be oriented with a north, south, east, and west sides... You could make north and south splay or east and west splay, but if you try to splay it on all four sides, you loose the perpendicularity. It's a fascinating aspect of geometry/carpentry. See: http://thecarpentryway.blogspot.com/2009/03/irregular-situation.html

[jamie shard]

Here's a post that shows the gap that happens when a flat board is put across a double splayed post: http://thecarpentryway.blogspot.com/2010/03/hear-to-provide-back-up.html See the middle of the post.

[Sean Hughto]

Interesting. I've made many irregular m&ts work. I have high hopes.

Like the ones on this table for example:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3703/10195016526_f1e99a6a2f_c.jpg

I can come in from the side. I can bury the cheeks. I can refine the shoulders. I have a lot things I might try.

[Sean Hughto]

So I guess I'll need to "back" the rectangle sections of the turnings so as to bring them back to square despite the slope.

[Sean Hughto]

And thanks for posting that. This project is already teaching me a lot.

[jamie shard]

You bet! It's been something I've been reading up on, but have yet to do myself.

I suspect that many craftsman just eyeballed the backing, but it can be calculated as well. I'm pretty sure the calculations/geometery is shown on his website.

[Bob Glenn]

Sean, you win. I did a mock up last night. Straight tenons and mortises it is. The shoulders of tenons will have to be angled in both directions, however. Proceed, Sir!

[Sean Hughto]

I think I lost on that one, Bob. You get the Q-pee doll, my friend. Read Jaime's posts and the link's to Mr. Hall's site above.

[Sean Hughto]

So I glued up, flattened and cut out the top. It's maple. Two pieces of a 12" wide board.

I find having the top helps me assess my continuing mockups. I'm trying to dope out the angle I like for the splay and the length of the apron sides to fall in the right places to support the top and not have the feet splay beyond the perimeter of the top. Seems like a 7 degree splay is about right, but before I tackle the M&Ts, I'll likely do another test or two. I'm just quick cutting some plywood scraps and attaching them to reject turnings from when I was developing the leg pattern with hot glue.

More to come.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5518/12279180475_4cd369b94a_z.jpg

[Sean Hughto]

Here is a summary of my work on the double splay issue. Thanks to Chris Hall and his "carpentry way" blog entries to set me on the right path. Hopefully what I've summarized here will be of use to others encountering this issue for the first time. I have quite clearly reinvented the wheel here, so no need to tell me if this is old news to you.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3197/2543044698_0aa9fbebe5_b.jpg
And the latest results of ongoing mocks and tests:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/12425934374_89833430c1_c.jpg

Getting close to time to attack the real thing.

[Jon Shank]

Really enjoying this thread, thanks for taking the time.

Jon

[Sean Hughto]

Why does our ability to edit our own posts lapse after a day or so? It would be nice if we could edit our own posts indefinitely. Anyway, the link above broke when I made a slight edit to the diagram. Here is the new one. I apologize for forcing this thread back to the top and prompting folks to look for new content. Happy Wednesday!
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3197/2543044698_373486c966_b.jpg

[Sean Hughto]

So mortises chopped and half the tenons cut this weekend. It's coming together, and is going to be fine, but I would hardly recommend my methods. I'd have to build a few more before I came up with something I would recommend to someone else as far as how to reliably calculate the adjustments one needs to make to bring the double splay togther cleanly.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3726/12576745174_d8248aa6b9_c.jpg

Marking out carefully is definitely important, as usual. I'd also recommend making form jigs - try angles - so that as you adjust shoulders, you don't lose (can re-establish) the angle.

[Prashun Patel]

Not sure what's more impressive, the crispness of your work, or the crispness of your pictures. Am enjoying this thread.

[Chris Griggs]

Fantastic Sean! mmmmmm....crispy

[Pat Barry]

Sean, Did you decide to angle the mortises or the tenons and shoulders or a little bit of each to overcome the double angle splay situation?

[Sean Hughto]

I angled the mortises. It worked, but it's hardly an exact science when working by hand. One of those things where in theory, there should be no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is! Minor deviations in the mortise or the tenon fitting make tiny differences in angles when all is dry fit, but enough to play some havoc with your shoulders.

[Sean Hughto]

Part of the problem is that at a 7-8 degree splay, the twist introduced is very small - like a degree or two - enough to matter greatly in fit and assembly especially when the degrees accumulate, but very hard to work to a one degree spec.

[Mel Fulks]

I've never seen an old one that had tight joints, they seem to depend on the pegs to keep them together, and hold the top on.

[glenn bradley]

Here, here. This has been great. Thanks for taking the time to take us all along.

[Sean Hughto]

Geeez, Mel, and you're just telling me this now? If I'd known from the beginning that the originals weren't airtight at the seams I coulda relaxed and made an "accurate" reproduction - true to the pilgrims! ;-)

[Mel Fulks]

I'm pretty sure you knew ,Sean. I was just being diplomatic. You are too good a craftsman to build an authentic table!

[Sean Hughto]

Some progress - I've assembled the legs and stretchers - glued, pinned, and leveled. Next will be refining the stretchers a bit and making the bits to attach the top - then on to finishing.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3733/12914069215_943d9b03b6_c.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7329/12914066165_bb91d13b70_c.jpg

[Tony Shea]

Very nice Sean, the double splay is certainly impressive. I went over to that Carpenter's website and skimmed through the posting about this double splay and was surprised by the effect of the splay. I'm glad I did realize this effect before I started on a project I had in mind of a splayed leg side table. For you to combat this issue in the middle of a build and get your shoulders as tight as they look is impressive Sean. I've always been a fan of your work on here and this project is proving to be another great build of yours. I would have to agree with the others in that the most noticeable characteristic of your build is how crisp everything is, especially the turnings.

Quick question though, what is the dark shadow line on top of your aprons and legs? Maybe you posted this already and I missed it but I didn't see it.

[Sean Hughto]

Quick question though, what is the dark shadow line on top of your aprons and legs? Maybe you posted this already and I missed it but I didn't see it.

Thank you, Tony. You are very kind. Pictures are funny. Sometimes they exaggerate minor problems and other times they obscure problems. I'm satisfied so far as far as avoiding big gaps, but these are not m&ts where there is nowhere you could get a needle in - I know why they painted these! As far as the line underneath, that's a pencil line. With chair legs and such, you can level and cut to length from the bottom, but with these turned feet, I needed take any adjustments from the top. So after making sure all four feet touch on a level surface, I turned the table over and after using shims to get a board level on the feet marked al the way around for planing the leg and apron tops.

[Sean Hughto]

As I get ready to refine the lip of the top and apply my finishes, I took advantage of a sunny day yesterday to try to shoot a picture at the same angle as the shot of the antique that inspired this project for me. Helps me to assess whether I got close. I like taking in-progress shots of things as photos often help me see things in a different way than in life - photos emphasize different things and sometimes reveal things or give me ideas.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7453/13073248705_ab4ca9e3d5_c.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3803/12091367183_65132ac6fb_c.jpg

[David Nelson1]

I think ya did fine job!

[Chris Fournier]

I am similar to you Sean in that almost exclusively I pursue my own designs in my shop (noting of course that there is nothing new under the sun and I am influenced by all that came before me) but twice I have made copies because the originals inspired me so much and I thought that copying them would reveal some lessons. In both cases it did. I made a series of Shaker oval boxes and a series ofShaker candlestick stand. Those projects were remarkably different from usual pursuits and I found them really refreshing, I knew that the outcome would be beautiful if I only got the work right.

Pommels are indeed a bit tricky as you point out! Especially your detail at the bottom pommel, excellent work. I've been through a few "sticks" myself. My favourite turning tool is the skew, I think it represents the highest level of attained skill when used to effect. When it bites back it bites hard.

Nice work and thanks for the thread.

[jamie shard]

Looks great!

[Daniel Rode]

Looks great, Sean. The stretchers look a bit taller on yours and have the groove detail otherwise it looks to be a pretty faithful recreation.

[Sean Hughto]

Yeah, I have been looking at lots of other antique examples, and decided to adopt the stretchers from another that were a bit beefier and had the groove. I also made mtable about an inch and half taller, and the top is a somewhat larger oval with slightly different l&w - making it a bit rounder. So much for absolutely fidelity. Even with reproductions, I guess I can't help tweaking stuff to suit myself.