Operator Position Relative To The TS Fence

[Cody Colston]

This subject has probably been discussed but to be truthful, I didn't feel like doing a forum search for it.

The thread about disliking the blade guard and some of the replies reminded me of a discussion/disagreement I had on another forum some years ago, not long after I took up woodworking. A member was relating a problem he had while making a rip cut on the TS. He stated that he was standing well to the right of the fence while making the cut.(fence right of blade) I responded that he was using an imroper method, that he should have been standing to the left of the fence and ensuring that the stock was being kept tightly against the fence during the cut.That prompted a response from another, highly regarded, member who insisted that the fence needed to be kept between the operator and the stock in the event of kick-back. I tried it and it was so awkward that I never tried it again. I couldn't see the stock/fence relationship, I had to use my left hand and it just felt wrong. I've also never seen a video or instructional picture that showed the operator standing to the right of the fence.

What says the group here. Does anyone make cuts while standing with the fence between them and the saw blade?

[Michael Mahan]

Where's the 'Popcorn' smiley when you need it ? ?

I'm very interested in this discussion :)

[Jeff Erbele]

Does anyone make cuts while standing with the fence between them and the saw blade?

Apparently one person does :)

I do not. I would find it very awkward and fear it would cause kickback.

I want to be on blade side of the fence, apply some degree of constant pressure on the stock towards the fence, as well as down as I control the feed rate through the blade. All of the forces, sideways, down and forward can be accomplished with a pusher, push block, mirco jig or the like.

Pushing the stock against the fence seems natural with a positive force. Pulling it towards the fence, awkward with sideways force in question.

I always want to be in control of the work piece, as well aware of the blade.

+ 1 for Cody

Ya know if the person from the other form, is use to pulling the stock towards the fence and worried about kick back; he could stand on the out feed side and pull the stock towards him. Double awkward, but if kick back occurred he would be out of the line of fire, flinging the stock (projectile) away from him.

EDITED to Add:
Here is a blind sampling of what others do:
You Tube: sawing wood on a table saw
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sawing%20wood%20on%20a%20tabl e%20saw&sm=3

[Henry Kramer]

Being right handed it seems very awkward to me but it might feel better if I were left handed.

[Jeff Erbele]

Where's the 'Popcorn' ? ? ...... :)

This could get interesting and take a while....

[Lee Schierer]

I stand so that the piece between the blade and the fence, which is most likely the piece that will kick back, cannot impact anywhere on my body. Generally speaking I stand to the left of the fence (fence to the right of the blade) but far enough so that the kickback will miss if one occurs. Reaching over the fence is awkward and makes it hard, if not impossible, to see if the stock is tight to the fence.

[Bill Huber]

If you go to You Tube and search on, table saw kickback you will see that in a kickback the wood will fly to the left side and back of the saw.

With that said I do stand on the left side of the blade and I also have a splitter on the saw at all times. I use a push block, not a push stick, I just can not see how anyone can use one of those push sticks that is just asking for something to happen, there is no down force on the board at all.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

It's impossible, and probably irresponsible to make a blanket, "you must stand here" rule. Different cuts require different positions, and if the operator is too stupid to figure out where the safe place to be is, a new operator is needed.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Of course, it would depend on which side of the blade the rip fence is being used.

Personally, I stand behind/to the side of the "free" piece not the piece trapped between the blade and fence.......and I always use my blade guard and splitter.

If the fence is to the right side of the blade, if I was to stand to the right of the fence, it would be impossible to properly guide the material along the fence while making a ripping cut and it would be physically awkward.....off balanced and I feel unsafe.

[Jason Beam]

It's impossible, and probably irresponsible to make a blanket, "you must stand here" rule. Different cuts require different positions, and if the operator is too stupid to figure out where the safe place to be is, a new operator is needed.

This. In its entirety.

I remember that thread, Cody. And while I agree that may be the safest location in the event of a major kickback, it's not addressing all the variables and could actually cause kickback. I believe it's symptom treatment and actually shortsighted. Preventing kickback should be priority, not "where's my bomb shelter in case it happens". IIRC there were a lot of people disagreeing with the "use the fence as a shield" advice. Steve's right on ... all generalizations are wrong, including this one. :D

[Andrew Fleck]

Being right handed it seems very awkward to me but it might feel better if I were left handed.

I'm left handed and that would feel awkward to me.

[Andrew Fleck]

If you go to You Tube and search on, table saw kickback you will see that in a kickback the wood will fly to the left side and back of the saw.

With that said I do stand on the left side of the blade and I also have a splitter on the saw at all times. I use a push block, not a push stick, I just can not see how anyone can use one of those push sticks that is just asking for something to happen, there is no down force on the board at all.

I think people use push sticks ( the kind with the little birds mouth) because that is what they were taught to use. I talked about a kickback that happened to me in another thread and that was while using one of those. I was only 14 years old in shop class. That is the stick the instructor made us use. I'm fairly certain that the stick combined with my inexperience caused that kickback.


I'm not saying those push sticks can't be used, but they can get dicey, especially if you are in a hurry. I'm like you, a push block standing to the left of the blade in most cases. Of course there are times when I'm standing directly behind the blade too. It really depends on what type of cut I'm making.

[Frank Drew]

...another, highly regarded, member who insisted that the fence needed to be kept between the operator and the stock in the event of kick-back.

I'd be curious to see how this fellow works at the band saw, or jointer??

[Jeff Duncan]

That just goes to show that just b/c someone claims they've "been doing it this way forever" doesn't mean they've been doing it right;)

I'm going to have to disagree with the others just a bit though, in terms of ripping hardwood on the table saw there's only one spot you should be in, to the left of the work piece with the fence to your right. And if the wood kicks back it should not hit you. This is the accepted standard b/c it's the best arrangement to make a good and safe cut. Now can you alter your stance for different cuts….sure. But your still going to be standing to the left of the saw blade regardless of left or right handed. Or put another way, there's no reason you should ever be making a cut reaching across the fence from the right side. If you go into a professional shop and cut like that you'll promptly be "re-educated".

Having said that anyone can decide to stand wherever they want to in your shop…..I'm not going to lose sleep over it:rolleyes:

good luck,
JeffD

[william watts]

Just went out to the table saw, and tried standing to the right of the fence( saw not running) for a right handed person seems to be an impossible position. There may be different positions depending on the situation, but standing to right of the fence is not one of them. Does any body know what type of cut would be made from that position.

[Peter Quinn]

lol when I read this. If you had asked me a month ago about standing to the right side of the fence reaching over, I would have insisted that is shear lunacy for the soft of head. But last week I had a job that required hundreds of thin slats be nailed to 3 1/2" wide boards at an angle to the long edges, just a bit hanging off the back side, then the overhang was ripped flush. These slats were on both sides, I ripped them in two passes so the off cuts were always down to the table, not up in the air. Well one direction fell safely away from the blade, the other the blade launched every off cut right back at my body, I was standing to the left of the fence and blade. Ouch. I put on my winter weight carhart, and that went ok until one hit my face. Ouch again. So I put a rolling cart in front of the saw with a sheet of plywood to protect my co workers, and stood to the right of the blade with a big push block. Awkward yes, but less painful.

So dispense with the where to stand rules, no place is safe anyway. Some kick backs come straight back when wood gets pinched between blade and fence, those are the nice polite kind, where you can shift to the left and let them go harmlessly by. Others take a left turn off the fence into the blade and get spun up and over it then whirled in a generally left and back direction. For those you want to shift right at approximately 3000 miles/hour to avoid the head shot that comes from standing where and how most people will tell you. All these where to stand strategies are bunk. The only real strategy worth considering in my considered expert opinion (tongue deep in cheek at this point) is stock control. Splitter or riving knife, straight stock, take care with funky tension wood, guards, feather boards where appropriate. Only safe place to stand is in another room with the saw off, but these measures will lesson the probability of an accident. Even a power feed is no guarantee.

[Charles Wiggins]

What says the group here. Does anyone make cuts while standing with the fence between them and the saw blade?

Never. I always stand on the opposite side of the blade from the fence and use a push stick to finish cuts.

[Clay Fails]

I stand so that the piece between the blade and the fence, which is most likely the piece that will kick back, cannot impact anywhere on my body. Generally speaking I stand to the left of the fence (fence to the right of the blade) but far enough so that the kickback will miss if one occurs. Reaching over the fence is awkward and makes it hard, if not impossible, to see if the stock is tight to the fence.

I agree with Lee. On a rip cut the kickback piece would be the part between the blade and the fence. I stand slightly left of the blade, such that the kickback piece should pass to my right. Using a riving knife (essential in my opinion) will significantly reduce kickback potential.

[Rich Riddle]

I am used to standing on the left side of my Hammer slider, so when using the Bosch portable table saw find myself typically almost in the same place.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I stand so that the piece between the blade and the fence, which is most likely the piece that will kick back, cannot impact anywhere on my body. Generally speaking I stand to the left of the fence (fence to the right of the blade) but far enough so that the kickback will miss if one occurs. Reaching over the fence is awkward and makes it hard, if not impossible, to see if the stock is tight to the fence.

Bingo. I can't envision standing to the right of the fence, and applying the pressure and guiding hand to keep the workpiece against the fence as it moves smoothly through the blade.

OF course, I never use holdovers a la feather boards, which would solve part of the problem, but still,,,,,

Of course, after all these years, this old dog would fail miserably trying to develop new muscle memory.

[John Gornall]

With an open mind:

For right handers only!!!!

Situation A - rip cut, possible "straight back" kickback

Go to your table saw - not running, blade retracted - and put the fence to the left of the blade 4 inches - if your fence won't go left use a 2x4 to simulate a left fence.

Stand to the left of the fence facing the blade and push an 8 inch by 36 inch piece along the fence with your right hand to rip it down the middle.

A kickback with this cut would result in a piece going straight back and as you are standing well left of the work piece it will not hit you.

Using this setup and stance you right hand is not in line with the blade or reaching over the blade so there is little chance you will push your hand into the blade.

Holding the workpiece against the fence - I have my left palm on the fence with my fingers over the fence putting a little friction on the workpiece to hold it against the fence. I also normally use a finger board - the magnetic ones are great.

If I made this cut with the fence to the right of the blade I would have to stand to the left of the blade and reach across the blade with my right hand to push. In case of a kickback I would have to hope it would go under my arm and that I was standing far enough to the left. Most woodworkers I have watched doing this cut just end up standing right behind the blade in line with the kick back.

That's the basic rip cut situation and what I call a straight back kickback.

Situation B - Cutting pieces that are closer to square often plywood "Spinback" kickback

Then there's what I refer to as a spinback kickback where a piece lifts and the back of the blade sends it spinning back and to the side.

Set up with fence left of blade to cut 1 inch off a piece of plywood 24" X 24". You are standing left of the blade, Both hands flat on the work piece, right thumb is pushing, easy to keep against the fence, hands not pushing near the blade, and a "spinback" kickback will go far to your right.
If you do this cut with fence right of blade and you stand left of the blade a spinback with get you right in the gut. To get out of the way you will have to stand to the right of the blade and push with your left hand.

Many scenarios with many cut setups on a table saw and you must think it through before the cut.

I remember having a woodworker yelling at me about how wrong I was and I realized I was more than a foot taller than him and he was right and so was I.

Try it.

[Tom Willoughby]

I have read the responses with interest as I've never heard a definitive answer on where to stand when using a table saw.

I am left handed and use feather boards on thinner stock to help keep the stock against the fence. In this instance I feel comfortable standing to the right of the fence and using my left hand to guide the wood through.

When cutting larger flat goods, however, I tend to stand directly behind the sheet between the blade and fence to best control the stock.

I use the blade guard with splitter whenever possible and use a riving knife when a blade guard cannot be used.

Also that video with an intensional kick back was SCARY! Those fingers came way to close to the spinning blade. Thanks for sharing and I'm glad that nobody was hurt.

Kind regards,
Tom

[Jacob Reverb]

It's impossible, and probably irresponsible to make a blanket, "you must stand here" rule...

...except to say "You should never stand behind the blade if there's any way to avoid it."

Projectiles HURT!

[glenn bradley]

Plenty of talk about this. I have not seen any formal tablesaw instruction book, article or video that tells you where to stand other than to tell you to stand out of the line of fire. This is possible to greater and lesser degrees depending on the operation. I would find it impossible to stand to the right of the fence when ripping 12" off of a 48" panel for example. I also find it challenging to stay completely out of the line of fire when ripping thin strips from a 6" wide blank.

[Phil Thien]

I am left-handed.

I stand to the right of the fence.

I feel safer because neither of my hands is ever directly in line with the blade, as they would be if I was standing to the left of the piece I'm cutting. I sometimes cringe watching people rip while standing left of the board, I think they sometimes get the outside of their left hand (pinky finger) too close to the blade.

And, if kickback occurs, I am not in the line of fire.

My right hand is applying pressure down and towards the fence, while my left hand is applying forward pressure.

If I were right-handed, I think it (standing right of the fence) would feel less natural.

[Alan Bienlein]

Left handed here and I mainly stand to the left of the blade and the fence is always to the right of the blade. I honestly wish I had a right tilt saw.

[Dave Cullen]

Standing to the right, push stick in left hand, reaching over the fence - allows me to catch the work comming off the saw with my right hand. This is only for short pieces that won't reach my outfeed roller. I use either a featherboard or a fence roller to help keep the work against the fence. For longer pieces I typically stand to the left.

[Guy Belleman]

Two points. First, I agree with Kelly Mehler that a board coming straight back out of the table saw is called "ejection". If the fence is set up to the right of the blade, then kickback will throw the board left and back. Second, besides using a splitter, and now a riving knife, I find the time to set up vertical and horizontal feather boards and hold downs for cuts on the table saw, and ensure the push sticks and blocks are handy. Using the sled is my norm for cross cuts.

Although a little dated, this Kelly Mehler video pertains to most of the topics on this thread: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7d2vt_kelly-mehler-table-saw_lifestyle
For those that might not know, Kelly Mehler is considered one of the experts on the table saw. He has written several books (The Table Saw Book and Mastering Your Table Saw), was an editor of Fine Woodworking for years, runs a woodworking school, and continues to write articles for magazines.

Kelly mentions that left hand injuries are the most common. I couldn't find that detail, but did find this set of data. It is interesting that 67% of the injuries occur during ripping. Appendix B listing the survey responses is interesting and full of areas for further discussion. http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/108980/statsaws.pdf Good training and good work habits seem like the best starting points for operating a table saw.

[johnny means]

I pretty much stand where ever I get the best leverage and purchase on my material. Sometimes this leaves me between the fence and the blade. Sometimes it leaves me slightly to the left of the blade. A lot of the time it leaves me right in front of the blade. Where the kickback might go doesn't factor into where I stand. I also don't drive from the passengers seat to avoid hitting my face on the steering wheel in the event of an accident. The most important thing you can do to mitigate an accident is to avoid it. On the table saw this means having control over everything you can and leveraging whatever forces you can apply in your favor. I don't do cuts where the fall off piece tends to eject. I use my riving knife. I make my push sticks so that I can push and hold down at the same time. There's cuts I won't do.

All in all the best position to be in is a position of control.

[John Lanciani]

I pretty much stand where ever I get the best leverage and purchase on my material. Sometimes this leaves me between the fence and the blade. Sometimes it leaves me slightly to the left of the blade. A lot of the time it leaves me right in front of the blade. Where the kickback might go doesn't factor into where I stand. I also don't drive from the passengers seat to avoid hitting my face on the steering wheel in the event of an accident. The most important thing you can do to mitigate an accident is to avoid it. On the table saw this means having control over everything you can and leveraging whatever forces you can apply in your favor. I don't do cuts where the fall off piece tends to eject. I use my riving knife. I make my push sticks so that I can push and hold down at the same time. There's cuts I won't do.

All in all the best position to be in is a position of control.

I agree 100%. I sort of suspect that some of the accidents and many of the near misses that we read about here arise from people getting caught up worrying about what-if's. The tablesaw is just another tool in my arsenal, no more and no less likely to cause me grave bodily harm if I screw up. I stand wherever I need to stand to complete the task at hand, if I was so worried about a kickback that I felt the need for a red zone painted on my shop floor I'd turn out the shop lights for good.

[Jeff Duncan]

Where the kickback might go doesn't factor into where I stand.

No offense meant, but it should be. Knowing what will happen if/when something goes wrong is something anyone who ever uses a piece of machinery should be taught before they're allowed to use it;) I've seen many accidents, (or after affects of), caused by guys who never stop to think about what's going to happen to them if something goes wrong. Not just for table saws, but for jointers, planers, shapers, you name it. If a machine has cutter that rotates at a high rate of speed, then kickback can occur. And for any person who stops, looks at the situation , and thinks about it for a minute or two, it's really just basic common sense. Don't stand in the direct path of the work piece. Is it 100% guaranteed to keep you safe? No, but it's the best and smartest way to improve your odds:cool:

As fas as terminology goes you can call it ejection if you like, but the rest of the industry calls it kickback, just something to keep in mind if your talking with others about it;) That's not to say Mr Mehler is wrong, I'm not familiar with him but I'm sure he is knowledgable. Just that there is certain terminology that's the accepted norm and in 20 years using machinery, working with other woodworkers and in other shops, I've never heard the term ejection used in that way:confused:

OK I'll get off my soap box for now:o I really don't want to sound so preachy, but when there is an actual debate over something that in the industry is considered proper technique 101…...:(

JeffD

[Kelby Van Patten]

Nearly all posts in this thread address the threat of a projectile hitting your body. That is not the biggest danger of kickback (although it does suck). The biggest danger of kickback is that, when the rear of the blade grabs the material and starts yanking on it, it will also yank anything that is touching it, including your hand or the pushblock that is in your hand. There is a very real risk that your hand will get pulled into the blade. While it sucks to get hit with a projectile, it sucks more to have your hand/fingers cut off. No "stance" will significantly reduce the risk of getting your hand sucked into the blade during kickback.

So, the only correct answer is:

1) Take all steps you can to avoid kickback. If your saw doesn't have a riving knife, then go buy a saw with a riving knife. It costs a lot less than a new finger.

2) Blade guards are your friend. I know, they are a hassle. But in the event of kickback, the guard is the one thing that is likely to keep your fingers connected to your hand. Once you get used to working with a guard, it really isn't that much of a hassle.

Projectiles hurt, but bruises heal. Severed fingers, not so much.

[Justin Ludwig]

Doesn't it all boil down to: look, listen, and feel? For me, it's an equal amount of all three. Of course you need experience and sometimes that experiences comes hard and fast. There's a whole slew of variables that could dictate body position.

If I'm teaching someone to operate MY table saw, it may vary slightly from you teaching someone about your saw. With that said, I stand to the left of the blade when fence is to the right when ripping hardwood, sheet material dictates where I stand based upon its size. I've never been hit with hardwood kickback.

I've been hit twice in my life and both times it was 1/4" plywood (once 5 years ago and last month with my wife watching :eek:). I keep the blade low so the ply could only jump above the blade and spin (they were both large pieces). Both pieces hit my derriere because I "heard and felt" it happening, let go and turn away.

I can't count how many times I've lifted a piece out of the blade (something you can't do with a blade guard) because it was cupping or binding.

[Phil Thien]

Although a little dated, this Kelly Mehler video pertains to most of the topics on this thread: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7d2vt_kelly-mehler-table-saw_lifestyle
For those that might not know, Kelly Mehler is considered one of the experts on the table saw. He has written several books (The Table Saw Book and Mastering Your Table Saw), was an editor of Fine Woodworking for years, runs a woodworking school, and continues to write articles for magazines.


In that video, Mr. Mehler mentions the injuries to the left hand from standing to the left of the stock you're feeding. His point is, if you're using your left hand, keep it safely planted on the table, do not push with it.

What I've often see is people not only guiding with their left hand, but pushing as well. If you stumble or get distracted, you could feed your hand right into the blade.

[Chris Fournier]

Fence right hand side of blade, I'm right handed.

Ejection/kickback, no need to dissect. Wood being propelled back at the operator - simple as that. Most likely to happen when the wood is trapped and held to the blade, likely by the fence. Offcuts are usually inert once severed. Not always I know but usually. I use a suction force to pull offcuts from the left of the blade if I am worried about them, take no chances.

I have ripped miles of wood on a table saw, no exaggeration. I had one kick back within the first week of owning my tablesaw, that's it. I had read about saw use and ripping but I guess that I had to learn the hard way. It was violent and impressive. I analysed what happened and adjusted my technique and my saw. I rip heavy cuts on my TS, up to 4" plus on my current machine.

Where to stand? Well for one I would never look down the barrel of a loaded gun because that is where the hurt comes from. I would not stand behind the wood being cut on my saw for the same reason. So now I must choose right of the fence or left of the blade. How to choose? Well I know that wood coming back at me is likely if it is pushed by the blade so I know that I have to keep my wood against the fence. I can't do this from the right of the fence. I set myself up as far left as I can comfortably be and effectively push that wood against the table and the fence, I NEVER place my hands in the path of the blade no matter how far away from it I am.

I have been kickback free for over 20 years and I wear all of my fingers.

If you are obsessed with kickbacks on your TS I think that you are quite possibly in danger.

[Roy Turbett]

I have a Unisaw with a 52" fence, 4 x 8 outfeed table, and 2 x 3 infeed table. I always stand to the left of the piece and out of the line of fire. I generally anchor my left hand in front of the throat plate and focus on keeping the workpiece against the fence. I generally push with my right hand. An exception is when I'm breaking down full sheets of plywood. In that case, I stand on the left side of the plywood and feed the fully supported sheet with both hands from the side.

I also use a splitter with anti kickback pawls whenever possible but don't use the guard. I have several smaller saws I use on jobsites and break larger pieces down before I run them on the tablesaw. Several of these have cheap fences and I always set the fence by moving it from right to left. This reduces the chance of kickback by making it more likely the opening in front of the blade will be narrower than the opening at the back of the blade if the fence doesn't automatically lock parallel to the blade.