TS Blade guard- What don't I get?

[fred lifton]

I finally upgraded my 70's vintage Delta TS to a new SawStop PCS with the fancy dust collection blade guard. In part what motivated the upgrade was a desire for modern safety equipment. The safety equipment on my old saw consisted of an on/off switch. Period. No riving knife, no blade guard, nuthin'. So, I really want to use the new stuff, but I just don't get the blade guard. In particular, I find the lack of visibility really disconcerting. It's hard-to-impossible to watch the wood as it passes by the blade, even with dust control running. There's just too much distortion and parallax from all the bits of plastic. Not being able to see what I'm doing doesn't feel very safe. Also, I can't use my Grripper push blocks because the guard is in the way, which results in having to use a less stable, basic push stick that doesn't control the stock as well (e.g., it's harder to push against the fence). Less control and less visibility do not seem like benefits.

Other people seem capable of using a TS with a blade guard installed. What am I doing wrong? Do I just need to spend more time getting used to the new way? I'd love to hear from others who have transitioned from old gear to new.

[johnny means]

Do you need to see your tires while driving? Jigsaw, bandsaw, scrollsaw, circular saw, these are used to make free hand cuts and require the user to see the actual cut. Your tablesaw is not one of these. In fact, I would argue that, if you are watching the blade while cutting, your eyes are on the wrong place.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

I have made similar comments on another thread -- as I have had my SS PCS for 4 years -- its great for some cuts and not for other (IMHO).

I most often use the blade guard when ripping plywood and mdf…where I really hate the dust. I do use sometimes use it ripping solid wood too. Mostly when the rip is wide enough (4" or more?) where I can keeping my eyes squarely fixed on making sure the stock stays right up against the fence. At that width I can still easily use a big, flat bottomed push stick (I never use the long poker-types) between the fence and the guard. Of course it is of no use when cross-cutting, narrow rips, with a tenoning jig, auxiliary fences, etc.

[Andrew Fleck]

I grew up using table saws without any type of safety devices and like you I prefer to see my work clearly and be able to use push sticks or blocks that I am used to. I gave a blade guard a fair chance but I just couldn't get used to or comfortable with it. One thing I do use is the little mj splitters to help prevent kickback. I did have a nasty kickback once that broke a couple ribs. That was on an old Powermatic with no splitter or anything. I think your saw has a riving knife so you should be set there. You should try it for a while and see if you can get used to it. I just can't.

[Alan Bienlein]

I'll be honest I'm not watching the blade cut the wood but where the wood contacts the fence to make sure it stays in contact with it. I only see the where the blade is with my peripheral vision.

And yes I know where my hands are at in relation to the blade even before I begin the cut.

[Larry Frank]

I agree with Fred....the blade guard on the SS is not good and you can not see your mark. This makes it a real pain to use.

SawStop could have done a much better job in designing the blade guard so you can see your mark and where you are cutting.

[Jeff Nicol]

Johnny, To me watching the blade, hand and material at the same time is the best way to get a good cut and do it safely. I have not ever used the gaurds on a table saw for the same reasons Fred states. Just like anything that has a potential to be dangerous, it is the operator that creates the safety of the machine. The only thing that newer saws have that I think are important are the riving knife and with the SawStop saws is the blade brake. So if we allow more and more potential regulations on us we will eventually have to wear kevlar suits and chain mail gloves to do anything. So it boils down to is that people do stupid things, then sue the manufacturer and make it tough on the rest of the folks doing things correctly.

Jeff

Do you need to see your tires while driving? Jigsaw, bandsaw, scrollsaw, circular saw, these are used to make free hand cuts and require the user to see the actual cut. Your tablesaw is not one of these. In fact, I would argue that, if you are watching the blade while cutting, your eyes are on the wrong place.

[glenn bradley]

As stated, there is no need to watch the blade; the blade is right where it always was. Your fence, miter gauge, sled, whatever control your stock and set its position relative to the blade. Watch someone work a slider and you'll see what I mean. Trying to watch the blade cut the wood takes your eyes off the feed path and as far as I'm concerned, that is a safety issue. Trying to "correct" the feed once a cut is in progress on a tablesaw is an invitation to kick back.

The SawStop guard is in line with many modern guards; thinner, split articulating sides, etc. I think it is the years working without one that is catching you off guard (no pun intended). I don't think you will find any reputable instructor demonstrating a technique that allows you to "adjust" the materials position once you have begun the feed path. If you don't know where your material is going to contact the blade way before you get there, guard or not, for safety's sake consider revising your technique. JMHO ;-)

[John Downey]

Man, I haven't used a TS with a guard since high school :D

[fred lifton]

To be clear, I'm not watching the blade the whole time I make, say, a long rip. Mostly I'm looking at the fence and material to make sure it's staying tight to the fence while I feed. I would never try "adjust" material once I've started a cut. I just find it disconcerting not to be able to see the cut, know exactly when it's starting, see where it's cutting relative to my mark, etc.

It's good to know others have had similar misgivings. I'm going to give it some time, try to get used to it and if I can't I'll feel okay about not using it all the time knowing that others have come to the same conclusion. FWIW, I do agree with Larry that SS could have designed the guard better such that you're not looking through 3 layers of plastic to see the material entering the blade.

[johnny means]

Exactly what is one watching the cutting blade for? When you see this what is the course of action one takes? Once my fence is set and I begin a cut, I am essentially an organically grown stock feeder. Nothing happening at the blade is going to change my course of action.

[Robert Chapman]

The third finger on my right hand is about a quarter inch shorter than it originally was because I used to find blade guards annoying.

[Michael Mahan]

bad habits are hard to break unless there repercussions , losing a finger will make/force you change habits pronto .

guards are there for the unexpected actions .

Fred you have trained your mind one way long ago & now it's a irritation that the non-sight of the blade bothers you .

[Greg Peterson]

I have a Shark Guard on my TS. It is an important component in my DC and presents a barrier for my fingers. I do not occupy a vehicle without wearing a seat belt, and I avoid removing blade guard.

I am very careful with the TS. Making a cut on the TS is not random, casual, "just have one quick cut to make..." act. It always receives my full attention, regardless how mundane or trivial the cutting task may be.

I, like most, have no intention of injuring myself on the TS. I'm sure those that have experienced kick back or worse did not expect they would be injured.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

While the SS guard does have some problems, I think it's much better than guards of old. It actually works, rides up on the wood -fairly- easily. It acts just like a riving knife. I don't look at the blade anymore. Like most, I grew up with no safety gear on my saw(s) until the SS.
If you must, take off the guard and use the riving knife. Since you have Grippers, you should be pretty safe. I use the riving knife and Grippers when making those cuts that cannot be done with the guard. You'll get used to it. Enjoy your saw, it's a great saw.
I used to never ever wear seat belts. Now I don't drive with them off. Just takes time to get used to them.

[Earl Rumans]

I am in the same boat. My old Delta saw didn't have a blade guard or a riving knife, so I am not used to using a guard. I have a new Jet now and I much prefer making smaller cuts without the blade guard, just using the riving knife and my Gripperrr blocks. If I am making longer cuts I will use the blade guard, as it's very easy to change out the riving knife and guard. I really feel the Gripperr blocks give me a much safer system, for cuts under about 6 inches, then the blade guard and a regular push stick.

[Cody Colston]

Speaking of overhead blade guards, what is the recommendation for an after-market guard. I have a Grizzly left-tilt cabinet saw and took the stock blade guard off after the first cut. I use the MJ splitters but am thinking of an overhead guard to help with dust collection. I lose a lot of sawdust off the top of the blade.

For the record, I have never agreed with the seat belt/TS comparison, either. Use of seat belts is mandated by the state...one doesn't have a choice. Seatbelts are a good thing but I doubt if many of us want the gestapo entering our shops unannounced to check if we're using blade guards.

This thread remided me of another issue regardig TS usage that i'll address in a separate thread.

[scott spencer]

I can understand wanting to see the wood. Even though you don't NEED to watch, it's intuitive to want to. I'm more comfortable being able to see the wood. Most guards obscure the wood pretty badly. My B0RK guard is pretty small and fairly clear so it's a lot less intrusive, which is one of the reasons it's usually in place. Agree that a riving knife and the Grippers should be pretty safe too....

[Chris Parks]

And yes I know where my hands are at in relation to the blade even before I begin the cut.

Everyone knows where their hands are but somehow hands still contact the blade and I am told it hurts.

[Rod Sheridan]

Fred, I'm being serious, why do you want to watch the blade cutting?

If you're ripping you should be watching the leading edge of the wood/fence intersection point, and watching where your hands are.

When crosscutting you should be watching where your hands are.

The blade is cutting whether you can see it or not.

I had a cabinet saw with a steel and aluminum blade guard, you couldn't see the blade at all, nor did I need to. I set the fence for a particular size, and ripped away.

Same for crosscutting, I set the stop at the desired length and cut.

Since there's nothing to line up with the blade, why do I need to see it?

I suggest you just keep using the guards, and stop looking at the blade, it will become a habit shortly and you'll feel comfortable again.....Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=fred lifton;2213817] I just find it disconcerting not to be able to see the cut, know exactly when it's starting, see where it's cutting relative to my mark, etc.

QUOTE]

There's part of the problem, why are you marking your wood?

(My FIL who is a retired cabinet maker always told me that no one was paying for my drawings as I wasted time marking things.....LOL)

To rip a piece of wood you set the saw to the desired dimension and cut.

Same with crosscutting, set the stop to the desired dimension and cut.

Keep using the guard, you'll get used to it..............Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Cody, when I had a cabinet saw I used the Excalibur overhead guard.

It had great dust collection and unlike riving knife mounted guards can be used for non through cuts.

I now have a saw with a Euro crown guard, good dust collection and convenient, however I'm thinking of going to an overhead guard so it can be used for non through cuts.

Regards, Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

Fred, I'm being serious, why do you want to watch the blade cutting.

If you're ripping you should be watching the leading edge of the wood/fence intersection point, and watching where your hands are.

Whaen crosscutting you should be watching where your hands are.

The blade is cutting whether you can see it or not.

I had a cabinet saw with a steel and aluminum blade guard, you couldn't see the blade at all, nor did I need to. I set the fence for a particular size, and ripped away.

Same for crosscutting, I set the stop at the desired length and cut.

Since there's nothing to line up with the blade, why do I need to see it?

I suggest you just keep using the guards, and stop looking at the blade, it will become a habit shortly and you'll feel comfortable again.....Regards, Rod.

Uh......ditto. Watch the fence, watch the hands. Trust that the large sharp whirly part will do its thing without your constant attention. Marks on lumber are fine for freehand work, scribes, framing. For cabinetry I'm against any marks beyond organization marks and basic layout symbols like triangles. Stops work better than marks. And fingers work better than nubs. Course you can more cavalier with SS, but the DC feature sounds good too.

[John Downey]

If you don't have a splitter installed, watching the rear of the cut can be important. I use a second push stick to jam into the kerf and keep it from closing up on the blade. A lot of the time it's not necessary, but the visual feedback is useful when it starts to pinch. If you're cutting plywood or pine all the time, no worries. 8/4 maple can be a different story.

And yes, in an ideal world, we would all have perfect saws with perfect safety equipment installed. Heck, we'd all have sharp blades too :D

The world is not ideal however, at least mine isn't. For me it has worked well to modify my work habits rather than my machinery. Less time, less expense, and more effective. Not for everyone perhaps, but then who ever said this was a one size fits all world?

[keith micinski]

Watch the leading edge of the fence and your work piece, watch your hands, and if there are any eyeballs left watch the blade. I agree with what someone said about the blade. It's one of the few tools that isn't doing anything but sitting right where it is supposed to be and more importantly it's not moving around trying to jump out and bite you.

[Keith Hankins]

Hey, I'm getting ready to buy the sawstop and I use the Gripper. If you don't like the visibility, then remove the guard and just put the riving knife in. you can do anything with it and use the gripper. What you wont have is the good dust collection, which is a big addition. At a minimum use that riving knife to help with the kickback. However with the grippr you keep even pressure on bothsides of the blade at all times, so that risk is minimal. I have two of them and used the microjig together to work as safe as possible. However, I've dealt with a lot of above table dust over the years, and will look forward to have a better mouse trap. Have a good one!

[Keith Hankins]

I agree with Fred....the blade guard on the SS is not good and you can not see your mark. This makes it a real pain to use.

SawStop could have done a much better job in designing the blade guard so you can see your mark and where you are cutting.

I'm a little confused with you comment. For rips, I measure from blade to fence then I know as long as i'm tight to the fence the mark will take care of itsself? For croscuts, miter gauge with stops solves the issue. The only time I see that guard getting in the way is if the cut is to be very narrow or dado?

[johnny means]

I use a second push stick to jam into the kerf and keep it from closing up on the blade.

Don't take this the wrong way but, that has got to be one of the worst TS practices I've ever heard of. Your risk and exposure doing that little trick are fat greater than the risk and exposure of a binding blade.

[Keith Weber]

I use a second push stick to jam into the kerf and keep it from closing up on the blade.

Wow! For any newbies out there taking notes, this practice is something I wouldn't file under things to start doing! Just saying!

[Pat Barry]

I agree with Fred....the blade guard on the SS is not good and you can not see your mark. This makes it a real pain to use.

SawStop could have done a much better job in designing the blade guard so you can see your mark and where you are cutting.

Does it void the warranty to remove the factory blade guard and just rely on the saw stop brake feature?

[fred lifton]

Lots of good feedback here. I appreciate all the responses.

To be clear, I don't use a mark if I'm just, say, ripping up a bunch of dimensional lumber. Just set the fence and go. But sometimes I'm trying to fit a very particular width (this happens in finish carpentry all the time, at least to me), so I'll hold my stock against the space I'm trying to fit, or the edge of the moulding or what have you and make a mark. I know that in theory I set the fence using that mark, lower the guard and away I go. But while I'm not a very experienced carpenter, I have been doing it long enough to know that s**t happens, the fence gets bumped, isn't locked all the way, slips a little when you lock it, etc, etc. So I've gotten in the habit of glancing at the mark as it encounters the blade. That way I can stop and reset before the damage is done.

Mostly, I think the folk who have said I just need to get used to it and learn new habits are probably right. I had that old saw for ten years or so, trimmed out my whole house with it, built cabs and shelves and built-ins, and much more besides. I have no idea how many hundreds of bf I put through it. That's a lot of muscle/eye/hand memory to overcome. It's like shaking hands with your left hand. Sure, it works. It just doesn't feel right.

And yeah, I feel like using the riving knife and grrippers when the guard really can't be used effectively is a pretty safe set-up.

[Pat Barry]

If you don't have a splitter installed, watching the rear of the cut can be important. I use a second push stick to jam into the kerf and keep it from closing up on the blade. A lot of the time it's not necessary, but the visual feedback is useful when it starts to pinch. If you're cutting plywood or pine all the time, no worries. ?

For what its worth, the worst kickback I have ever experienced was from ripping some BORG 2x pine. I had no splitter, no riving knife, no blade guard and that pine closed down hard on the blade, probably all the pitchiness of the pine exaggerated the bite on the blade and that piece came back at me like a bat outta hell. Luckily I was standing off to the side and not in the direct path. Pine is one of the least well behaved woods you can work with because it is soft and grows so quickly.

Also, I mark everything so I don't get mixed up when its time to cut. Its just the marks are not precision markings for alignment. If I need precision then I measure from the blade to the fence and move the fence til its where it needs to be. I rarely use the scale on the fence except for gross cutting

[John Downey]

Don't take this the wrong way but, that has got to be one of the worst TS practices I've ever heard of. Your risk and exposure doing that little trick are fat greater than the risk and exposure of a binding blade.


Wow! For any newbies out there taking notes, this practice is something I wouldn't file under things to start doing! Just saying!

Well, you fellas are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I have a feeling neither have tried the method, it does seem kinda crazy if you've not tried it. It's a handy thing to know if you have an ancient saw not easily retrofitted with a riving knife and guard. That second stick actually provides a great deal of control where you need it - behind the blade. That is where cuts most often go wrong and cause accidents like kickbacks. The second stick is 9-12" long, hands are no where near the blade at any time. Wedge has a little step cut in it for pushing the work down and into the fence when needed.


For what its worth, the worst kickback I have ever experienced was from ripping some BORG 2x pine. I had no splitter, no riving knife, no blade guard and that pine closed down hard on the blade, probably all the pitchiness of the pine exaggerated the bite on the blade and that piece came back at me like a bat outta hell. Luckily I was standing off to the side and not in the direct path. Pine is one of the least well behaved woods you can work with because it is soft and grows so quickly.

Exactly what I'm trying to avoid :D

I've sure had badly behaved 2x lumber, doug fir, white fir, etc. All the spruce and white pine I've used was remarkably polite wood considering all the knots. Never tried any SYP that I can recall, from what I've heard it would be more like doug fir.

I'll be the first to tell you though, when I mentioned plywood or pine, I was thinking of 3/4 stock from the home center.

[johnny means]

John, a few months back I had a kickback on my slider. I was doing a test cut after making some adjustments, only cut I've ever made on that monster without the rubbing knife. I made the cut then went to back the table up with the board still in place. Needless to say my hand moved the board ever so slightly and things went awry. When i heard the board start you rub the blade i made an immediate move to escape. But i wasn't enough. 10 hp motor, 16" blade, it hit me hard, really hard. It literally knocked me down. So any way, I limled around for about 8 weeks with the only bruise I've ever had in my forty years. This was probably the worst case scenario of TS accident without blade contact, a really bad bruise. If I had been a smaller framed person, maybe a broken bone. I hate to imagine what may have happened if I had my hand on the other end of that blade.

Your trading one risk of pain and minor injury for a potentially catastrophic one. I think you may be beating every TS safety rule at the same time.

I WOULD LIKE TO CAUTION ANYONE READING THIS THREAD, JAMMING ANYTHING INTO THE KERF BEHIND THE SAW BLADE IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER.

Also, could someone post the video of the fellow staging a kickback and having a close call. This is an excellent demonstration of how proximity to the blade and lack of understanding can be dangerous.

[Keith Weber]

Aside from the obvious dangers of reaching over a spinning blade to jam something into a kerf, I just have a vision of this 12" long stick getting bumped and/or falling out of kerf. Any pinching that it was preventing at the time would be released, and it would rapidly pinch the back of the blade, eliminating any warning that the wood is starting to pinch. That saw would launch that wood back at you faster that you could blurt out your favorite four-letter word.

[Earl Rumans]

Here is the kickback video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

[John Downey]

John, a few months back I had a kickback on my slider. I was doing a test cut after making some adjustments, only cut I've ever made on that monster without the rubbing knife. I made the cut then went to back the table up with the board still in place. Needless to say my hand moved the board ever so slightly and things went awry. When i heard the board start you rub the blade i made an immediate move to escape. But i wasn't enough. 10 hp motor, 16" blade, it hit me hard, really hard. It literally knocked me down. So any way, I limled around for about 8 weeks with the only bruise I've ever had in my forty years. This was probably the worst case scenario of TS accident without blade contact, a really bad bruise. If I had been a smaller framed person, maybe a broken bone. I hate to imagine what may have happened if I had my hand on the other end of that blade.

Your trading one risk of pain and minor injury for a potentially catastrophic one. I think you may be beating every TS safety rule at the same time.

I WOULD LIKE TO CAUTION ANYONE READING THIS THREAD, JAMMING ANYTHING INTO THE KERF BEHIND THE SAW BLADE IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER.

Also, could someone post the video of the fellow staging a kickback and having a close call. This is an excellent demonstration of how proximity to the blade and lack of understanding can be dangerous.

With all due respect, I don't believe you understand the technique I am attempting to describe. It is only used when ripping, never when cross cutting.

To be honest, I would never attempt what you describe, that is indeed an invitation for a bruise. Work is always removed from proximity to the blade once the cut is complete, never, ever pulled back past the blade. If I'm using a stop on the guide, the part is removed entirely, if I'm cutting to a line the part is slid to the left an inch or so before the guide is moved back past the blade.

I have to say that I'm a little surprised that you expected any result other than the one you got.


Aside from the obvious dangers of reaching over a spinning blade to jam something into a kerf, I just have a vision of this 12" long stick getting bumped and/or falling out of kerf. Any pinching that it was preventing at the time would be released, and it would rapidly pinch the back of the blade, eliminating any warning that the wood is starting to pinch. That saw would launch that wood back at you faster that you could blurt out your favorite four-letter word.

That stick is in the left hand, and as the body is positioned to the left of the blade, there is no reaching over the blade. The stick is at an angle, pushing down and to the right. I don't remember ever having to let go of it, once there is a reasonable length of kerf, pinching is much less of a problem because the far end of kerf can close entirely without putting much pinch on the blade. This is only to prevent problems during the first 12" or so of ripping. I always use the thing to hold the wood against the fence in any case, and for the odd piece that pinches hard in the beginning of the cut - not many do.

I'm telling you, once you've seen it done it's more of a head slap moment (if you are used to saws without safety features that is) than a "I can't believe I saw him try that" one. Users with effective riving knives would probably never need such a method. Ideally, all saws would have a riving knife. As mine does not, this works well in it's stead.

[Bob Falk]

Man, I haven't used a TS with a guard since high school :D

+1 I find my Sawstop guard (and every other guard I have used) more dangerous than safe. I keep the riving knife on and am not lax in my attention, but IMO its not only the blade you need to watch, but the piece relative to it. If you can't see the piece and the blade, kickback is a real possibility. My $0.02

[Jim Andrew]

I have a bachelors in Industrial Arts, back in my school days my opinion of guards was that they were for school, and after getting out I spent 35 years using a table saw with no guards whatsoever, and when I decided to set up my home shop a few years ago, bought the shark guard for my unisaw, as I had experienced kickback on my old cman saw, even with it's weak motor would bruise me pretty well, and installed the shark guard to keep from enduring sawdust in my eyes. Hated safety glasses as well, and you really need goggles to keep from getting sawdust in your eyes from your table saw. Anyway, now that I am older, don't need to get injured, or have trash thrown in my face to cut a board, splitters keep your board much safer than you can with a board, and overhead dust collection is great. I don't ever stand to the right of the fence like the guy in the video, seems like a great way to have a kickback.

[John Gornall]

Safety on a table saw is a complex subject and often personal based on use and experience. So many different cuts and setups and safety is different each time. I'm 50 plus years on a table saw, have always used a splitter but did not use guards until the last few years. I tried a couple of guards and found I was happy in many rip situations but seldom comfortable when crosscutting. I was tempted to buy a Sawstop and then I would not use guards accepting Sawstop Technology as a suitable substitute. However I won't buy a Sawstop because they are left tilt. After all these years of right tilt which is all there was until internet buzz switched things I would never be safe using a left tilt. I'm right handed and work to the left of the blade and having the blade tilt away from me is comfortable. Yes, fence and work to the left of the blade so I am never behind the blade and never reach over the blade and I can push and control the workpiece with my dominant right hand. Back in the old days it was always said the blade tilted right away from our hands. My old boss that started training me in the 60's was very serious about safety and would have loved a Sawstop if he could have it in right tilt.

[Clay Fails]

While the SS guard does have some problems, I think it's much better than guards of old. It actually works, rides up on the wood -fairly- easily. It acts just like a riving knife. I don't look at the blade anymore. Like most, I grew up with no safety gear on my saw(s) until the SS.
If you must, take off the guard and use the riving knife. Since you have Grippers, you should be pretty safe. I use the riving knife and Grippers when making those cuts that cannot be done with the guard. You'll get used to it. Enjoy your saw, it's a great saw.
I used to never ever wear seat belts. Now I don't drive with them off. Just takes time to get used to them.

I agree with Kyle. The SS blade guard is fine. You only need to see the blade when measuring for the cut, at which point you have lifted tge plastic shroud to measure between the blade and the fence. No need to see tge blsde during the cut. Focus on the pice riding the fence. Remove the guard and use Grippers with riving knife when the cut requires that technique. This is a great saw if used as designed.