Testing a Kobalt Mill File

[george wilson]

As promised,I went to Lowe's and paid the extraordinary price of $8.98 for a CHINESE made 8" mill file. I think the last time I bought a USA Nicholson it was less than that. But,since I hoard files,that info might be out dated.

My quest has been to find a decent file that can be had locally,regardless of origin.

I had just uncorked a NOS USA 8" single cut Nicholson smooth file. It made a good standard to compare for the test.

The Kobalt is not as finely cut as the Nicholson(Nick from now on). It did not feel as sharp under the thumb as the Nick. I tried the Kobalt on a piece of cold rolled mild steel. It did not feel sharp. The Nick WANTED to cut. The Kobalt just felt like it had been used quite a bit. Also,for some reason,the Kobalt would leave a scratchy surface at the slightest provocation,while the Nick easily left the nice surface I have expected all these years.

As a final insult,I tried the Harbor Freight file with the ugly plastic handle,and the coarser cut teeth(more of a bastard cut). It actually CUT BETTER than the Kobalt. It cost what? $2.00? I wish HF offered a finer cut 8" mill file to test.

So,once again,I have failed to find a decent,easily gotten local file for you guys. Personally,I do not need any new files as I am also,in addition to my other tool pigging,a file pig. My efforts have been to help all of you.

The Kobalt is going back to Lowe's. I don't know how they can charge as much for a Chinese file as I have paid for American files of the same type. Hopefully,home owners are sharpening their lawn mowers with a bench grinder,and not this file.

[Lamar Keeney]

Thanks for the heads up. You just saved me the price of one. It's a sad state of affairs when one has to search for a useable file. The last decent MB file I bought was from NAPA of all places, but that was a couple years ago.

Regards, Lamar

[Jonathan McCullough]

This is a common complaint. It is somewhat surprising that the manufacturing industry would tolerate this state a state of affairs from such a staple consumable.

[george wilson]

Who are most of the customers? Ordinary non craftsmen who need to file something only very occasionally.

Here's how bad it is: I had built up the very best industrial arts shop in the whole area when I got the job offer from Williamsburg. The principal was a nice person,but not the most intelligent guy I ever met. His whole mind was on the sports program at the high school. He mentioned to me that he wanted to hire a part time coach and part time industrial arts teacher. I told him that would be a very bad idea.

He hired his coach. A few years later,one of my best students visited me in Williamsburg. He told me he gave up on the guy when he tried to sharpen a table saw blade with a wood rasp.



I don't think the Chinese know how to present the chisel to the file when cutting the teeth. I think they use too steep an angle,and slightly bend the tips of the teeth backwards,giving their files that already dull feeling.

[Jonathan McCullough]

I got 20 slightly used/practically NOS Nicholsons from the former employee of a local firearms company after the company offshored manufacturing to China. They used them by the case--then threw them out, where this industrious guy dumpster-dove them-- but at any rate, there are some industries that have handwork and a necessity for sound tools on a regular basis. Funny thing, now that the manufacturing is offshored, they should still presumably need adequate files . . . .

[Robert Culver]

I have pretty much given up on trying to find good products local. I would say I buy 98 percent of my tools on the internet because I have a better selection and I can somewhat count on it being a quality tool.... To bad its come to this because I would like to support the local economy. Tool wise woodcraft and rockler are more than a hour drive. Tools made in china drive me crazy I wish there seems to be no kind of consistence quality control must not be a priority for sure. I find it interesting that you can bring a product over on a boat and it still cheeper than a product produced in America.

[Joe Bailey]

Hi George

Just wanted to add my thanks for your efforts on everyone's behalf.

[Daniel Rode]

I don't want to hijack the thread but this seems like a review that would attract file aficionados :)

I'm personally looking for files primarily to shape wood. It's really tough to learn much about files. Internet searches turn up everything except info on tools called files. I'm 99% sure my HS shop teacher was a football coach. I could be wrong, he have been a wrestling coach but I didn't learn much there.

I'd like to understand not just what brand might be good, but what type of files would be useful and what's important when selecting a file. What cut, what size, what shape for what uses? When is a file dull? I'm virtually clueless.

I have a set of older HF quality double cut files and 1 nicer single cut Nicholson but it's often too large too fine. Maybe I'm using poor search terms, but I'm not finding much on the web.

PS: Thanks George. I've learned something useful about HF and Kobalt files already.

[Pat Barry]

HD sells the Nicholson files. Have you tested their models yet George, or is that where you got yours?

[David Weaver]

The mexican nicholson files are OK. But OK is the appropriate word for them. by FAR the best way to get decent mill files is to buy NOS simonds USA and other such files on ebay, and buy a box of them. Often, a half dozen will cost what two would have cost new.

I'd assume that the buyers for the kobalt files are the types of people who read a diy article that tells them to file something that's copper or brass and they slough through whatever they're doing just assuming that "filing something is really hard, and it only works easy on TV" (where someone is using a proper file).

[David Weaver]

I don't want to hijack the thread but this seems like a review that would attract file aficionados :)

I'm personally looking for files primarily to shape wood. It's really tough to learn much about files. Internet searches turn up everything except info on tools called files. I'm 99% sure my HS shop teacher was a football coach. I could be wrong, he have been a wrestling coach but I didn't learn much there.

I'd like to understand not just what brand might be good, but what type of files would be useful and what's important when selecting a file. What cut, what size, what shape for what uses? When is a file dull? I'm virtually clueless.

I have a set of older HF quality double cut files and 1 nicer single cut Nicholson but it's often too large too fine. Maybe I'm using poor search terms, but I'm not finding much on the web.

PS: Thanks George. I've learned something useful about HF and Kobalt files already.

If you're filing wood, go to a flea market and look for bigger files with fairly large partially worn teeth on them. They will file wood well and not catch too much, and be totally worthless to anyone filing metal (and thus cheaper for you). It's not uncommon to find tool box trays filled with used files around here that are like that for $1 each or sometimes $1 for 5, and they work well. Just don't get one that's covered with rust.

[george wilson]

HD sells Nicholson files. But,they are HECHO EN MEXICO. I have written about them. The 12 I got were very nice looking,well cut,beautiful looking. But,they were so soft I easily filed a 45 degree angle on the front of them to a width of 1/32" WITH AN OLD USA made Nicholson before I hit the hard core. This is well below the depth of the teeth.

I only hope the Mexican maker learns how to protect their files from decarbing eventually. I am not wasting money to find out when this happens. Cooper Tools has made it impossible to contact. I have tried. There seems to be no way to tell them that their files are soft. Perhaps they don't want to know. I think they just want to make as much money as possible running the brand name into the ground selling shoddy files. That is my opinion,of course. So many old brand names are being ruined that way. Gibson Guitars was run into the ground until they became hard to sell,I suppose. Finally,a new owner bought the company,and has been working toward restoring the quality and image.

[David Weaver]

Cooper Tools has made it impossible to contact. I have tried.

Me, too. They don't answer questions that I submit through their information request form. I think they just don't care.

[James Taglienti]

Hardly anyone goes into a large depatment-type home store looking for a file to do any sort of delicate or fine artisan work with! People think files sharpen axes and lawnmower blades! Everything else gets the angle grinder.

Cooper doesnt care- They have multi million dollar contracts with multiple mega retailers. Theyre probably busy answering Home Depots emails demanding their files cost .07 less per piece starting in 2015 or other such garbage.

Im sorry to tell you guys this but a big box store was NEVER a place to get the best consumable tools. Think about the sandpaper there. Its expensive and its the basic red garnet stuff. The drill bits are sub par. The wood stain and finishes suck. Maybe they carried US made files there at one point. Totally circumstantial! Nicholson made their fair share of junk in the US. Those pattern rasps have been bad for a long time. Think of their plastic handled chisel/files.

[Jim Koepke]

George,

Thanks for the write up.

jtk

[Jim Neeley]

My recommendation for file dumpster-diving is to seek out one of the few-remaining old-time hardware stores or an old-time store that grew into an industrial supplier and check their file inventory, looking for old and dusty ones in the bottom of the pile or the back of the hanging hook. Files aren't a big seller any more.

I did that and was able to find eight or ten old Nicholsons (various cuts and sizes) from back when they were made in the USA and bought them all. They were in the back, covered with dust and grease, obviously ignored by buyers for the clean ones in the front of the hook or pile. Yes, their stockers didn't believe in rotating stock, much to my benefit.

One even more elderly gent than I working there saw me come up with my assortment, smiled at me and said "good choice!"

It worked for me; it might work for you.

Jim in Alaska

[Darren Brewster]

Has anyone tried the Stanley files? My closest big box home centre sells them exclusively. They look quite nice, but that clearly doesn't mean much.

[David Weaver]

If the stanley files don't say "made in USA" or "made in switzerland" or "Made in portugal" or some other euro or american country, you can bet they won't be good.

I've seen a lot of branded stuff by stanley lately that was really overpriced, especially in the home gadget area of stuff. My mother got a spotlight shaped flashlight over the winter for $40, stanley branded. It's 120 lumens or something. I took a flashlight that I got in a gift pack at home depot to their house, two at 300 lumens for $15, and took my dad to get a pair to find the generic home depot branded ("defiant" - funny how close that is to one of stanley's old home brand names) cree lantern of 375 lumens or something to be $15. So my mother paid almost 3 times as much for a third-world-made light that is 1/3rd as strong because it said stanley on it.

I don't trust that they provide value in many places.

[Joe Tilson]

We had one of the finest shop teachers around at our HS. Mr. Carl Barnes was a fine gentleman, who took his time to explain how tools worked, and why they worked. He then taught us the skills of using tools. A lot of the mechanical electric tools in the shop were made by him. The one I remember most is a free standing spindle sander he and students put together after school one week.

After Mr. Barnes retired, the teacher became Bubba Smith, assistant football coach. Well, you know how it went from there.

I knew they were thinking about closing the shop class down. Then one day my wife and I were going through the Wednesday flea market in Pickens, SC, and I saw some potato mashers on a table which looked just like the ones we used in our shop class. I got to checking them out and found the very one I used in that class. It was ten dollars well spent. We knew then they had closed the shop classes down and sold off the tools at auction. This included the Nicholson files. Mr. Barnes would have no other.

[george wilson]

You got it,James. But AT LEAST,they used to carry Nicholsons. Nicholsons themselves were reducing quality for years. First,the tangs stopped being tapered both ways. No biggie. Then,the files got thinner. I swear,their last USA mill files seemed a bit narrower,too. But,at least they still had good teeth and cut well.

[Bryan Jung]

Hi everyone, been lurking here and learning a lot; thank you all for sharing.
Because I'm new into woodworking I have noting new to share, but after reading this threat went to ebay looking for some NOS files and found the prices a little bit higher than what I was willing to pay.
With some research I found that Bahco files are considered good ones and order this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001P0Q7G/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3BUJ4ZPESQSK2
10 files for $16 shipped :D, the only problem: delivery take a month.
Hope this may be helpful to some one, and thanks again guys

[george wilson]

Bahcos have been recommended here for some time. My purpose was to try to find a LOCAL file of decent quality that you could just go buy. Not wait a month and pay shipping.

[Jamie Buxton]

What does NOS mean in this context?

[David Weaver]

Older files that were never sold.

[Harry Hagan]

The Kobalt is going back to Lowe's. I don't know how they can charge as much for a Chinese file as I have paid for American files of the sane type. Hopefully,home owners are sharpening their lawn mowers with a bench grinder,and not this file.

George,

Thanks for the write-up and thanks for taking the file back.

When we accept inferior workmanship—we get more of the same. Don’t spend your hard-earned dollars on something that should be sold at Toys “R” Us.

[george wilson]

I see I typed "sane" when I meant "same",but maybe sane is still the correct word!

[Jonathan McCullough]

NOS = New, Old Stock

[george wilson]

I did go to Home Depot some time ago,and cleaned out the remaining USA Nicholsons.

[Gary Herrmann]

Yeah George, I did the same at the HD and Lowes near me. It's probably been close to two years since I saw any made in USA Nicholsons in either store.

[Noah Wagener]

have you tested any files from Sears? I really do not know how to use a file or judge one but i found the Craftsman black oxide files much nicer than that variety pack of Nicholsons they sell at Home Depot but that is not saying much as in my hands the Nicholsons just kind of slid over everything leaving an odd scratch here and there.

[harry strasil]

FWIW Dept, Years ago at a Blacksmith Convention we had a gentleman in who explained about files. Years ago files were what they classified as 101 points of hardness, which I assume means 1.01% Carbon content. This is extremely hard as Bearing races are 1.% carbon. Mondern files at that time were .95% of 95 points classification. At the time you could still get 101 point files, they were called industrial quality files. Don't throw your old good Nicholson files away, Resharpen them, which has been discussed on Sawmill Creek before. It used to be that the best Drill bits and Files that were Black Oxide finished were the best.

File usage is also a determining factor on how long they will last. Back in the day a good portion of a Blacksmiths time was spent filing and finishing things that he had forged. During my apprenticeship I was given a piece of 1 inch shafting and 2 files, one being a Bastard cut and the other a mill cut. These were the only two files I was allowed to use and I had to using only the files, form 1" long sections on the shaft, 1/4" round, 1/4" square, 3/8" round, 3/8" square and so on. I was repeatedly informed that drawing the files backward while resting on the material would dull them. Took me I think 3 days, and I was never so tired of filing, and my arms felt like they were gonna fall off. Years ago they made a handled file that had one safe edge that were made for filing the drags on Chainsaw Chain, which is really hard. There was an older gentleman that came around with a pickup full of used drill bits, files and milling cutters etc. He showed me how hard the handled files that were actually new were and I bought a dozen or so, I still have several of them and I never did wear one out.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

have you tested any files from Sears? I really do not know how to use a file or judge one but i found the Craftsman black oxide files much nicer than that variety pack of Nicholsons they sell at Home Depot but that is not saying much as in my hands the Nicholsons just kind of slid over everything leaving an odd scratch here and there.

I don't want to ask more work of George, but I'd also love someone's opinion of these - I believe they're Indian made - I've got one mill files from there, but haven't really put much use to it, nor payed attention when I had, although I remember it leaving a nice finish draw filing on brass. I had, however, grabbed a few of the taper files for sharpening saws when I saw they were on sale (which often is a bad sign at Sears - whenever I see something on sale it tends to mean they're no longer going to carry them, or they're switching to a new manufacturer, like they did with the Bessey-style clamps a while back) and they were certainly better than new Mexican Nicholsons, (although that's not saying much) Out of the box, they aren't feeling that much different than my Grobets from Lee Valley or Tools For Working Wood, but I haven't really put that much work into any of those files, having use d them just for a saw or two, and only on touch-ups. I'm know just enough to know when a file is terrible, but not much more - I guess I need to pay more attention to it.

I did the same as some others and grabbed some American-made Nicholsons when I found some on the backs of the racks. I got a larger 12 inch or so file, and was pretty pleased when I was actually able to put it to some work rehabbing a drawknife - couldn't file the hardest part of the edge, it obviously just skimmed across, but was able to work quite a bit of the backing steel, which just destroyed an import file.

[fred klotz]

New Old Stock

[fred klotz]

I've found Bahcos on the rack at my tool supplier (Oregon)

[Jonas Andersson]

I've cleaned many old rusty files in citric acid and with a brass wire brush. The difference before and after are huge.

[george wilson]

Actually,I have thought of reverse electroplating(electro stripping) the Kobalt and HF files to see if it would remove the tips of the supposedly bent back cutting edges of the teeth. It has been years since I have had my electroplating outfit out.

In the 50's,Sears sold "Kromedge" files. I did not THINK I liked them at the time. I don't recall why. But now,Rio Grande jeweler's supply sells "Valtitian" files for filing hard metals like platinum. I ordered some for the shop at work. I think they are hard chrome plated just like the old Sears Kromedge files of many years ago. They seemed to cut o.k.. I don't know if electroplated files can keep as keen an edge as unplated. Doesn't seem likely.

This Valtitian order was back before the good makers went South. I have no idea if they are still made by good makers. I think I noticed them for sale somewhere lately.

[Rick Markham]

What does NOS mean in this context?

New/Old Stock

[Joe Tilson]

I would like to know which file to purchase to sharpen saws with. I went by the HD the other day to try and purchase saw files. The guy says to me what kind of chain saw do you have? I said, none, I'm talking about hand saws, he says oh you just have to buy another saw, you can't sharpen those. I told him I have several saws from the early 1900's and I would like to sharpen them. He says, they don't make files for those anymore. I then left the store. Even on the internet it is hard to make out the files one needs for sharpening saws. Hellllllllllpppppppp! Yes, I don't know what to look for.

[Jim Foster]

Hear is a thread, google saw files and lots of info comes up

http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/understanding-saw-file-sizes

[Rick Markham]

So After reading Harry's post it pretty much tells ya new files will never be as good as the old good files! Interesting about not dragging back in the cut to keep them sharp, that's going to become habit for me. I have a small tidy stash of some decent USA made nicholsons. (I too am a tool pig, and thanks to George cleaned out my BORGs years ago.)

I'm glad you chimed in Harry, I've been thinking about you recently. There's a big local "Flywheelers" convention here coming up. I think I'm gonna be starting to accumulate some blacksmithing equipment. My primary target is a large hardened top anvil. Since moving into a new house, I have a very nice outdoor (covered) area for a forge an anvil and anything else! :)
Hopefully I will find some nice hammers, and other good stuff!

[John Coloccia]

Maybe i'll just make a forge this spring and start making decent files for us. It's frustrating, isn't it?

[Don Kingston]

Just the other day I was reading on a web site and got lost following the storyand ended up with great reading about files. It was the SIMONDS tool website as I was looking up the saws.
http://www.simondsint.com/handfiles/HAND%20FILES%20PUBLICATIONS/File%20Facts.pdf
Either in this story or one on sharpening, the author feels that filing should have an apprentice ship and be a trade.
Great story and it convinced me. Though that has nothing to do with Mr. Wilson's topic of poor tools made today reading his tool test reminded me of the link.

[Mel Fulks]

Usually when I use a file I'm just sharpening a lawn mower. Old files are sitting all around in my basement,picked up one a while ago and noticed it was real sharp. It's a PLASTICUT made for plastic laminate and the luxurious solid plastics. Maybe good US files are still made for plastic. Never seen the brand sold by any place other than the plastic dealers.

[peter leyden]

I have a total of at least 145 files and rasps. The brands include Nicholson, Simonds, Heller, Johnson, Disston, Grobet, Arion, etc. 58 of the files are new, purchased at a time when these files were still made in the USA. If you are still looking for files, they are available. If interested, let me know and I will type up a list and get it to you.
Peter Leyden
p_leyden@hotmail.com

[phil harold]

I just got mine but they only sent one file not a ten pack...
what a rip- off
I have filed a complaint,
we will see what they will do about it

With some research I found that Bahco files are considered good ones and order this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001P0Q7G/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3BUJ4ZPESQSK2
10 files for $16 shipped :D, the only problem: delivery take a month.
Hope this may be helpful to some one, and thanks again guys

[george wilson]

This incorrect listing of the number of files you are getting is a chronic problem that does not seem to be going away. The only thing you can do to protect yourself is ask realistically,how much one file should cost. I see your $16.00 did include shipping. That's about right for the cost of 1 file. But,I'd certainly buy more than 1 file if they could be shipped in the same box,reducing the shipping cost per file.

[phil harold]

I dont know George
There have been many things I buy on sale at outrageous prices
12.85 for a round trip ticket to LA I bought 4
And united honored their mistake
I buy batteries from china for a twentieth of the price in the US, including shipping
It takes a month or so to get to me them but what the hay.
I bought these a spares for later use, they are sold as a ten pack I should get a ten pack...

[David Weaver]

Bahco files aren't made in china, there is a significant cost to them (i also get chinese batteries), the seller is a small seller (unlike united) and amazon doesn't require sellers to honor listing mistakes. All they have to say is that it was a listing mistake.

George and I have already been on the wrong side of it, thus the earlier warning in this thread.

We only did it once. Bet you will, too!! :)

[phil harold]

George and I have already been on the wrong side of it, thus the earlier warning in this thread.

We only did it once. Bet you will, too!! :)
where is this warning?

I think that amazon should make the company correct the ad
3 weeks later it is still saying a ten pack

[george wilson]

Amazon is just careless about listing files for some reason. Last year they had listed 12 packs of Nicholson files from a few different venders the same way. The vender I tried to buy from(along with several members of this forum) tried wiggling out of it by stating "damaged in warehouse" as their excuse for not having them. "Tool Fetch" was the name of that dealer.

[allen long]

I think Lee Valley and Iridium deserve a shout-out for their auger bit file! I used it last night for some shaping of an aluminum dovetail tail. The filings that came off off the aluminum were very fine shavings. The did not clog either. I just thought it was worth giving credit when it is deserved.

[David Weaver]

where is this warning?

I think that amazon should make the company correct the ad
3 weeks later it is still saying a ten pack

You're right. It was in another recent thread, and I assumed that was this thread. Someone asked about the same bahco ad and we advised them that it's likely 1 chisel being listed as a box of ten. My apologies for being too lazy to see if this was the same thread.

You're right, too, that amazon should have the company correct the ad.

When we all bought the original spoof - which was nicholson files - $10 for what was supposed to be a pack of 12, the seller blamed amazon changing product numbers or something. no clue who was at fault, but it took them a little bit of time to fix it. If a saw file is less than about 4 bucks per with shipping, you can bet there is something wrong with the listing.

[David Weaver]

Amazon is just careless about listing files for some reason. Last year they had listed 12 packs of Nicholson files from a few different venders the same way. The vender I tried to buy from(along with several members of this forum) tried wiggling out of it by stating "damaged in warehouse" as their excuse for not having them. "Tool Fetch" was the name of that dealer.

Did they end up sending you a box? Because they sure didn't do anything for me. Not that I'm going to go back to that after finding a bahco drop shipper that sells bahco files for $5-7 per.

[george wilson]

The Tool Fetch sent me a box finally,but they were soft and worthless.

[phil harold]

When we all bought the original spoof - which was nicholson files - $10 for what was supposed to be a pack of 12, the seller blamed amazon changing product numbers or something. no clue who was at fault, but it took them a little bit of time to fix it. If a saw file is less than about 4 bucks per with shipping, you can bet there is something wrong with the listing.
got this email this morning:
__________________________________________________ ______________
We apologise but there was a listing error that advertised the wrong quantity.
Unfortunately we can't edit certain details on Amazon's page and it assumes the most similar item.
We weren't aware that the item was wrong until now so, I've requested the refund and it should be back to you in a couple of days.
Please keep the item as a way of compensation for the inconvenience caused.
Apologies for the inconvenience and if you have any further queries don't hesitate on contacting us.
__________________________________________________ ______________

and then from amazon
We've processed a refund for the above order in the amount of $28.71. The refund should appear on your account in 2-3 days if issued to a credit card.

looks like I got two free files...

[george wilson]

This nonsense has been going on for years. Why can't Amazon's knuckle heads get it right about files?