Help matching this Pottedy Barn finish...

[Michael Dunn]

Hey guys!

As detailed in another thread I'm building a large 'built-in' solid hickory shelving unit. My client wants to match the finish of his desk. I believe the desk is oak with some sort of walnut or brown mahogany type stain. I had my client come out to the shop and see some samples over the hickory. I showed him what I had in stock at the time. All GF products. New Pine, too light, Antique Walnut, still too light, and Brown Mahogany... Remarkably, still too light for his tastes. For this example I sanded the hickory scrap to 220 grit. I'm doing some other samples sanding only to 120, maybe 180 in hopes that the pores will absorb more of the stain to take on a darker color.

Does anyone have any suggestions for matching or at least coming relatively close to the finish shown in this pic of the desk drawer?

Thanx!

[John TenEyck]

Michael, remember when I showed a project that used SW's BAC Wiping stains. Well, now might be the time to go to SW and get a color brochure from them. If one of the stock stains isn't a perfect match they can custom mix one for you, so take the drawer and a piece of scrap hickory with you. The BAC wiping stains are amazingly easy to work with and have excellent one coat coverage. It's solvent based, but dries very fast. The only downside is that whatever first goes over it has to be sprayed. But I think that's not a problem for you. I used Sealcoat to seal it and then topcoated that with GF Clear Poly.

John

[Michael Dunn]

Michael, remember when I showed a project that used SW's BAC Wiping stains. Well, now might be the time to go to SW and get a color brochure from them. If one of the stock stains isn't a perfect match they can custom mix one for you, so take the drawer and a piece of scrap hickory with you. The BAC wiping stains are amazingly easy to work with and have excellent one coat coverage. It's solvent based, but dries very fast. The only downside is that whatever first goes over it has to be sprayed. But I think that's not a problem for you. I used Sealcoat to seal it and then topcoated that with GF Clear Poly. John

I do remember than. That was in October I believe. Are you saying the order is SW BAC stain, sealcoat, then GF Clear poly?

Is seal coat the same as GF sealacell? Are you saying that you sprayed the sealcoat and the GF poly?

Is the sealcoat WB or solvent? GF clear poly, is that the WB polyacrylic? High Performance (green label) or the regular blue label?

Thanx!

[John TenEyck]

I do remember than. That was in October I believe. Are you saying the order is SW BAC stain, sealcoat, then GF Clear poly?

Is seal coat the same as GF sealacell? Are you saying that you sprayed the sealcoat and the GF poly?

Is the sealcoat WB or solvent? GF clear poly, is that the WB polyacrylic? High Performance (green label) or the regular blue label?

Thanx!

Sorry not to have been more clear. The order is BAC Wiping Stain, Bullseye SealCoat Shellac sprayed on, GF Clear Poly or High Perf. Poly put on any way you like. The Clear Poly is more chemically durable than HP Poly. GF's Seal-A-Cell is a completely different animal and has no place in this recipe.

Further note: You can alter the intensity of the BAC Wiping Stain by how long you leave it on before wiping it off and by how vigorously you wipe it off. If it's too dark no matter what you do, you can get a lighter tone by spraying on a coat of SealCoat shellac first, cut with 50% DNA. But that shouldn't be necessary if you buy the right stain.

John

[Michael Dunn]

Which one should I buy? Sanding sealer or wood sealer?

[John TenEyck]

Michael, I suspect they are the same thing, just two different labels. Per Rustoleum's website, picture #1 is the only one they show and is what I last bought. Anyway, both say 100% wax free shellac, which is what you want, so it won't matter which you buy.

John

[Michael Dunn]

Cool. I just dropped in my local SW. Hoping to start staining tomorrow. Sanding is all done.

[Lee Schierer]

Before your try anything on your completed project be sure to try it on some sanded scrap. My experience with hickory is that it will accept a slight amount of stain, but certainly not as dark as the oak desk.

[Scott Holmes]

The Finish you are trying to copy was not produced using a single wiping stain. It was most likely a multi-step process including dye, toners and possibly a stain used as a glaze.

[Phil Thien]

If it still isn't dark enough after the stain, try a dye first, then stain, then the shellac, then the poly and see how that looks.

I find it is much easier to get a real dark finish by using a dye AND a stain.

[Prashun Patel]

The black in the pores leads me to believe this can be achieved using a glaze. When I'm after this kind of finish, I dye brown (yours appears on the greener side of brown, rather than the redder side) and then I'd seal with a coat of top coat, then I apply a dark oil stain - usually a black/ebony. After sealing, applying the oil stain has the effect of darkening the existing color and lodging in the pores. Finally, you topcoat. If you have not glazed before, you do need to practice both with the technique of applying the stain and the amount of sealer used between the dye and oil stain. Applying the stain is more of a dab and blend thing - not a soak and wipe off. You'll figure it out easily if you experiment a little.

Personally, I would stick with a spray lacquer as both the sealer over the dye and as the top coat. Using shellac or an oil based topcoat will add an amber cast that may complicate your ability to hit the target color.

[John TenEyck]

To those who have not tried SW's BAC Wiping Stain you will just have to take my word for it of how dark a single coat of that stuff can make a piece of wood. It truly is amazing stuff. I can't argue with dying first; in fact, that's exactly what I did to adjust the color of a piece I made with it, but I did that because the BAC stain I used was a stock color and didn't give me quite the right color alone. Had I had SW mix a custom color I doubt the dye would have been needed.

I'm not saying a single application of stain will give Micheal the exact match he needs. Only he can determine that and, yes, on scrap, definitely. But I have done the multi step process of dye, stain, sealer, glaze, toner, etc. etc. When that's needed it's what you have to do. But it's not always needed, and simple is good when it works. How anyone can tell from those photos that a multi step process was used is, IMHO, pure speculation. It looks more like a simple stain + topcoat to me. In the end, Michael is trying to reproduce the color on a different wood and no matter what he does it's never going to be a perfect match, hickory just doesn't look like oak.

John

[Phil Thien]

To those who have not tried SW's BAC Wiping Stain you will just have to take my word for it of how dark a single coat of that stuff can make a piece of wood.
John

I'm not questioning you at all. I just said if it still wasn't dark enough. By all means, use the fewest steps necessary.

[John TenEyck]

I'm not questioning you at all. I just said if it still wasn't dark enough. By all means, use the fewest steps necessary.

I agree. Sorry, if I came across otherwise.

John

[Phil Thien]

I agree. Sorry, if I came across otherwise.

John

Nope, you didn't come across like that at all. My point is, try John's suggestion first. If you still want it darker, try dye before the stain. But try just the stain by itself first.

You aren't coming across as anything but perfectly reasonable. I plan on trying the stain you are suggesting on a project in the future.

[Michael Dunn]

To those who have not tried SW's BAC Wiping Stain you will just have to take my word for it of how dark a single coat of that stuff can make a piece of wood. It truly is amazing stuff. I can't argue with dying first; in fact, that's exactly what I did to adjust the color of a piece I made with it, but I did that because the BAC stain I used was a stock color and didn't give me quite the right color alone. Had I had SW mix a custom color I doubt the dye would have been needed. I'm not saying a single application of stain will give Micheal the exact match he needs. Only he can determine that and, yes, on scrap, definitely. But I have done the multi step process of dye, stain, sealer, glaze, toner, etc. etc. When that's needed it's what you have to do. But it's not always needed, and simple is good when it works. How anyone can tell from those photos that a multi step process was used is, IMHO, pure speculation. It looks more like a simple stain + topcoat to me. In the end, Michael is trying to reproduce the color on a different wood and no matter what he does it's never going to be a perfect match, hickory just doesn't look like oak. John

So how long should I wait between the BAC stain and the Sealcoat? How long between the Sealcoat and the GF poly?

[John TenEyck]

So how long should I wait between the BAC stain and the Sealcoat? How long between the Sealcoat and the GF poly?

I think SW says you can topcoat in just a couple of hours, but I waited overnight for the BAC stain to dry before spraying the SealCoat. Handle the stained parts carefully. There is almost no binder in that stain so it's easy to damage it until it's topcoated. Also, let me point out again, you MUST spray the SealCoat; any hand applied finish will make a muddy mess of the stain. I sprayed the SealCoat straight from the can, no dilution. You can spray the GF Poly an hour or two after the SealCoat, and then follow the directions for additional coats. Generally, I wait about 4 hours and scuff sand with a 320 mesh sponge between coats. Three or coats and it should look great.

John

[Michael Dunn]

I think SW says you can topcoat in just a couple of hours, but I waited overnight for the BAC stain to dry before spraying the SealCoat. Handle the stained parts carefully. There is almost no binder in that stain so it's easy to damage it until it's topcoated. Also, let me point out again, you MUST spray the SealCoat; any hand applied finish will make a muddy mess of the stain. I sprayed the SealCoat straight from the can, no dilution. You can spray the GF Poly an hour or two after the SealCoat, and then follow the directions for additional coats. Generally, I wait about 4 hours and scuff sand with a 320 mesh sponge between coats. Three or coats and it should look great. John

So is the sealcoat WB or solvent based? This is quite a large piece so I bought a gallon and plan to use my HVLP system.

[John TenEyck]

So is the sealcoat WB or solvent based? This is quite a large piece so I bought a gallon and plan to use my HVLP system.

All shellac is alcohol based. (OK, there is at least one WB one, but that's a rare, and poor, exception.) Use denatured alcohol to thin it and clean your gun. FYI, SealCoat also makes a perfect medium to which to add Transtint dyes for use as a toner. SealCoat, and all dewaxed shellacs, stick to almost anything, and almost anything sticks to it.

John

[phil harold]

I am a little late to the party
but the oak looks like a classic asphaltum stain, a little roofing tar and napath

Or just buy the Gilsonite bySherwin Williams

[Greg Berry313]

I recently used GF Java Gel stain and it looks real close to the finish you are wanting. Alot of DIY'ers call it the "pottery barn finish". Very easy to use and very little or no blotching on the pine I was used. I did seal it first with GF sealer. I did some samples on scrap with Seal Coat and GF sealer. It was a bit lighter on the first coat with the Seal Coat but I didn't have a whole lot of the seal coat left so I just used the GF Sealer. If the first coat isn't dark enough, just put a second coat on but it can get pretty dark. Finished with GF Arm-r-Seal.

[Michael Dunn]

Here is the SW matched stain.

[Phil Thien]

Here is the SW matched stain.

Well it doesn't get much better than that, does it?

[Michael Dunn]

Well it doesn't get much better than that, does it?

Thankfully my client agrees. I begin staining tomorrow.

[John TenEyck]

Nice. Good to see it worked, Michael. Look forward to your review of how you like the BAC Wiping Stain.
John

[Michael Dunn]

Nice. Good to see it worked, Michael. Look forward to your review of how you like the BAC Wiping Stain. John

I REALLY enjoyed working with this product. I wish I would've asked how good the coverage saw. I bought a gallon. $46. Not bad considering GF is $19.99/qt. I used a wool type staining pad with a wooden handle. Application was incredibly quick and easy. Coverage was great and pretty uniform. Wiping and 'buffing' was easy as well. All in all it took me about an hour to do all 9 pieces.

3 - 120"x12-1/2"x1-1/2" shelves
4 - 34-1/2"x12-1/2"x1/2" supports
2 - 34-1/2"x1-1/2"x3/4" face frame type pieces. One is to be scribed against an adjacent wall.

Both sides of all pieces in about an hour. Not bad. Dang good in fact.

[Phil Thien]

I wish I would've asked how good the coverage saw. I bought a gallon. $46. Wiping and 'buffing' was easy as well. All in all it took me about an hour to do all 9 pieces.


How much of the gallon did you use?

[Michael Dunn]

How much of the gallon did you use?

Maybe 1/2 pint, LOL!

[Phil Thien]

Maybe 1/2 pint, LOL!

LOL, well, you can push the Pottery Barn look until you run out of that gallon.

[Michael Dunn]

LOL, well, you can push the Pottery Barn look until you run out of that gallon.

Absolutely! As a matter of fact, I'm designing a bar right now to match the clients vanity which seems to be this type of color.

[Michael Dunn]

I'm now wondering if I may need to tint the sealcoat with a dye. Here's a pic...

I have GF's light, medium, and dark brown dyes. All are WB. Can this be added to the sealcoat?

[John TenEyck]

Micheal, your latest photo looks a lot lighter than the test piece you showed. You said you wiped it off and buffed it, or something like that. I've found the BAC Wiping Stain works well if you brush it on, let it sit for 3 or 4 minutes, then gently wipe it off. If you keep going back over it it will get lighter and lighter. The good news is you've got a gallon of the stuff (Holy cow, I bought a quart and still have 2/3 or more of it left after doing that table.), so you have plenty enough to apply another coat. That would be my first option - of course I'd test it on scrap first.

I'm not familiar with GF's dyes. I use Transtint, and it is soluble in both water based and alcohol based products. I often add it to Sealcoat shellac to make toners that I use to adjust the color of a piece, at any point in the process. Sometimes I add them to GF's WB topcoats to adjust the final color, too.

John

[Michael Dunn]

Here is the finished product installed. My client was thoroughly pleased. I love when that happens.

[John TenEyck]

Nice, very nice. So now I gotta know, what was the final finishing process?

John

[Michael Dunn]

Nice, very nice. So now I gotta know, what was the final finishing process? John

Exactly what you prescribed. Except that I needed it to be darker. Learning curve I guess. This stain gets lighter as you keep rubbing. I'm used to the GF gel stains. That being said, I really enjoyed working with this and will surely use this finishing schedule again and again.

At one point after one coat I actually sanded everything down due to dreaded swirly marks.

1. After sanding to 120 grit and wiping with MS I used my large wool(?) staining pad to apply the stain.

2. I let it sit for 10-12 minutes to darken as much as possible, rubbed with a clean cloth (HD premium rags, what a joke... I HATED these. I prefer Lowes' shop rags that have the cheese cloth on one side.) in a circular motion,

3. Then wiped parallel to the grain, then allowed to dry over night,

4. Sprayed Zinsser Bulls Eye Sealcoat 100% wax free shellac using my Earlex HV-6900,

5, Sprayed 3 coats of GF semi-gloss polyacrylic sanding with 320 (or 400) between but not after the final coat.

6. Lightly ran some super fine steel wool over.

Though this process is technically more steps than my usual it actually can be done it less time. I like the oil based stain that can be top coated in an hour. The alcohol medium that can accept a WB too coat is a great time saver.

Very glad you shared this. I'll be using this as often as possible where applicable.

Thanx!!!

[John TenEyck]

Thanks for the info. Michael. Can't argue with the results. Next time, however, you might want to just wipe parallel with the grain. I think circular wiping leads to wiping off a lot of the stain. As you noted, the BAC Wiping Stain is a whole different animal compared to the GF Gel Stains, and what works best for one doesn't for the other. Just a learning process. Glad you found it worked well for you on this project.

Also, if you like the GF Polycrylic you might want to look at their Enduro Clear Poly. It looks pretty much the same, but is far more chemically durable and has a great UV stabilizer system. Of course, it costs more, but it's still cheap compared to one call from an unhappy customer who left their spilled drink on one of your cabinets.

John

[Phil Thien]

That really came out terrific, I'd be a happy customer, too.

John is right about the Enduro-var being much more durable than polycrylic. In a bathroom I still like varnish, as I find it is more chemically resistance to the stuff that women use in a bathroom. Quite frankly if it were just me the Enduro-var would be sufficient.

[Michael Dunn]

Thanks for the info. Michael. Can't argue with the results. Next time, however, you might want to just wipe parallel with the grain. I think circular wiping leads to wiping off a lot of the stain. As you noted, the BAC Wiping Stain is a whole different animal compared to the GF Gel Stains, and what works best for one doesn't for the other. Just a learning process. Glad you found it worked well for you on this project. Also, if you like the GF Polycrylic you might want to look at their Enduro Clear Poly. It looks pretty much the same, but is far more chemically durable and has a great UV stabilizer system. Of course, it costs more, but it's still cheap compared to one call from an unhappy customer who left their spilled drink on one of your cabinets. John

I'm familiar with that. I built 9 restaurant tops last May. I use the GF Enduro Pre-Car Conversion Varnish. I loved it. No complaints in a new restaurant/bar installation.

$100/gal. Not bad for the value.

[Michael Dunn]

That really came out terrific, I'd be a happy customer, too. John is right about the Enduro-var being much more durable than polycrylic. In a bathroom I still like varnish, as I find it is more chemically resistance to the stuff that women use in a bathroom. Quite frankly if it were just me the Enduro-var would be sufficient.

Thanx Phil! He has a couple more potential projects for me. I'll start another thread for that one. He wants a custom piece like a curio cabinet built to fit a recessed 'nook'. It seems to be made of pine or some similar softwood with a rustic pickled stain.

[Prashun Patel]

Nice results. Thanks for posting. I'll look into this finish for m'self.

[John TenEyck]

I'm familiar with that. I built 9 restaurant tops last May. I use the GF Enduro Pre-Car Conversion Varnish. I loved it. No complaints in a new restaurant/bar installation.

$100/gal. Not bad for the value.

Where did you get GF's Conversion Varnish for $100/gal? It's more like $120 at Homestead Finishing. Maybe we're not talking the same thing. GF's Conversion Varnish is a Post Cat product. Their Pre-Cat product is called PreCat 181, and sells for $70/gal at Homestead.

John

[Michael Dunn]

Wow, just saw this while brushing up on this process as I am using it again. I order from a place called Reliable Finisheds in Arlington Heights, IL.