Titebond III

[Mike Hutchison]

First off, wasn't sure if this is correct forum for this question. What the heck, gotta light somewhere.
I am making a door to replace one that goes to a carport shed. I am using 1" x 6" PT w/ 45 Deg corners.
There is some exposure to the elements involved. I bought a jug of Titebond III and glued up the top rail to 2 stiles. The temperature during the glue-up was well within the spec'd range on bottle. Next morning took my clamps off and one corner held, but one did not. I noticed that while the glue on top was or appeared to be dry, a lot of the glue on the underside was still almost like it came out of the bottle. My question: does this product need air space all the way around to set? Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this irregardless of what Titebond has to say about it.

[Rick Moyer]

I'm wondering if the PT was too wet. Maybe try Poly glue like Gorilla. Just a guess.

[Jim Foster]

I never had a problem with Titebond III. Are you gluing mitered corners, like a picture frame?

[Bradley Gray]

Pressure treated lumber is not kiln dried. Poly glue will work better as it uses moisture to cure, but the PT is gonna shrink as it dries - I would add some mechanical means to hold your miters together. M&T or half lap might hold up better.

[RICHARD DYKE]

I think that the titebond reacted with the treated wood. I use it all the time and even use it on treated wood but sometime the treated wood has a concentration of the coppertox in one spot and I think that would keep the glue from soaking in and drying. When I used it in the past I screwed it so no problem there. Could you screw it from the back side? Or may be screw from the end and top into the 45? That would make the joint stronger.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I use Titebond III quite often in strip kayak/surfboard construction. I have never had this issue and I live in the humid tropics. Typically I can unclamp small glue-ups in as little as 30 minutes. Larger ones I leave longer. I do agree with the others that pressure treated is not good for gluing as the glue does not penetrate the wood through capillary action like it does with kiln dried, untreated wood. The wood absorbs some of the moisture out of the glue with normal applications. Use epoxy or as already mentioned "Gorilla Glue" but beware that it will set up quickly on PT as it sets with moisture.

[HANK METZ]

I have noticed TB III will go into separation if not shaken after sitting on a shelf for a while. Perhaps the jug you bought was older and had done this; maybe the first joint was the one with the "cream" on top. Just a theory, no better, no worse than the others.

[Mark Bolton]

Pressure treated lumber is not kiln dried. Poly glue will work better as it uses moisture to cure, but the PT is gonna shrink as it dries - I would add some mechanical means to hold your miters together. M&T or half lap might hold up better.

This isnt always the case. Some treated material now is in fact dried after the treating process to try to regain some stability. It really depends on what he had, where it came from, and what treatment was used. There are several different types of "pressure treated" out there now so its hard to pin anything down.

I agree with you completely though, a different joint (even better a different material, throw the PT in the trash) would be best.

Trying to make anything even half way nice out of pressure treated lumber is a difficult proposition at best. The treatment process and SYP combine to land all the great pains taken in the toilet in just a few months.

In my experience when your dealing with even the most stable treated, a caulking gun and some construction adhesive is about as advanced as you can get. ;)

[Kent A Bathurst]

Some treated material now is in fact dried after the treating process to try to regain some stability.

It is called KDAT - Kiln Dried After Treating.

The treating process uses waterborne chemicals, and some big-league serious pressure. Hydraulic pressure, not compressed air.

At the end of the treating cycle, a hard vacuum is pulled to extract as much of the chemical solution as possible - save in the work tanks for recycling on the next charge, and reduce the waiting time for the lumber to get dry enough to ship: Cant' have the chemical soup dripping out on the highways.

Then, for KDAT - it goes in a kiln to bring it back down to standard moisture content for framing lumber - 19% max.

You will find it at some of the independent lumber yards - not sold at the Big Box Boys as far as I know. Stores that tend to service higher-end contractors. It is definitely more $$ than standard PT lumber. And - IMO - it is definitely worth the extra $$$. Won't shrink like std PT. Much less prone to checks and splits in 2x and deck boards - not so much on 4x4 and other timbers, because it is not possible to get the same results in the kiln.

Now then: the grain structure of the SYP that is used for PT lumber - including KDAT - would pretty much put paid to success on adhesion to the end grain exposed at the miters. The wood comes from modern, efficient, forestry techniques. The trees don't exactly grow like weeds, but close enough. It is pretty amazing to drive through SE Georgia and see the trees at different stages from seedling to harvest.

I have used PT in assembled work. Couldn't get the KDAT - so let the wood sit for a couple months, rough cut it, let it sit a while longer. THen - standard WW techniques like splines or mortise and tenon. And epoxy. The PVA products, like T-III, ain't gonna cut it.

And - I am a fan of T-III. Just not for this application.

EDIT: If you live in the SE region, let me know where, and I can give you some help locating a store that carries KDAT. From say, Ark and LA through to Georgia and north to Pitt and Baltimore.

[Mark Bolton]

[QUOTE=Kent A Bathurst;2213584 You will find it at some of the independent lumber yards - not sold at the Big Box Boys as far as I know. Stores that tend to service higher-end contractors.[/QUOTE]

In our business(GC) and area its been a bit of the opposite. The home centers seem to be the ones carrying some form of dried/alternate treated material. I always assumed it was a bit more to do with loss and DIY types picking endlessly through lift after lift of material. The less that goes whacky before it passes the register the more profit but I suppose thats true for any yard.

The independent yards (at least around here - mid atlantic) are all buying from one or two sources on the east coast. Culpeper out of VA being the most predominant. But its all straight CA,(b), (c), ACQ, and so on, depending on supplier and type of member.

[Andy Pratt]

If I read correctly this is for a carport-sized door and you are using 1x6 with mitered corners for joinery, and it sounds like you had your failure when two stiles were connected to one rail without the other rail in place yet. If this is all accurate I think you may be expecting too much out of the glue (or any glue). I think your joinery needs to be much more substantial for the size of piece you are doing, and you have to be especially careful with it until you have a whole frame assembled (better to glue it up all at once). A 7' 1x6 stile dropping just an inch or two when you unclamped it is a lot of leverage on a small glue surface. I would not rely on only a mitered joint for this application even if it was just a man-door, and if it is for half of the car entrance, I think that might be your problem right there.

To address your actual question: I use wax paper directly under my glue ups and frequently find that the glue that sits between the wax paper and the wood is still very gummy the following morning, but this has never resulted in a glue joint failure. The only glue joint failure I have experienced with TBIII was when I used it 10-15 degrees below the minimum temperature with two year old glue, and moved it 4 hours later. Even then two of the three joints held. It cleans up with water so it stands to reason that if your PT is still wet on the glue joint surface it would take much longer than the recommended time to cure. My guess is that this problem is a combination of not-fully-cured glue (due to wet PT) and insufficient joinery, and I would try to address both areas when re-doing it.

[Mike Hutchison]

Lots of good info, guys
Thought about half-lap at some point but wanted chance to do 45 Miters on something with longer sides to see
if I could overcome the challenges that come with Home Depot lumber. This after the usual time spent pawing through
stack to find anything relatively decent. Neglected to mention that I am using biscuits at the corners. One challenge I didn't forsee due to rushed nature of these projects: the 1 x stock was too wide to go on my compund miter saw. Thus I ended up sawing the 45s with skil saw (and guide) and sweetening (Norm term) up joints with Shur-Form Plane to correct my sawing and the warp/bow of stock. There are rabbets on the inside of the door to accept some panels of siding. There is a rail @ half way vertical. Have re-glued the failed corner after letting it dry out and it now seems to be holding. Will install panel in-top with a couple fasteners to get idea of weight. I may go to OSB "Smart Siding" instead of re-purposing the 5/8" T111 scavenged from another project. Had thought that I would go with some corner brackets once I got the thing assembled for structural value but had to get it to that point before this could be done. The bracket or gusset thing was one thing driving the width (giving room for brackets and still let the 3/4" edges of door go into "jamb").

[Kent A Bathurst]

The independent yards (at least around here - mid atlantic) are all buying from one or two sources on the east coast. Culpeper out of VA being the most predominant. But its all straight CA,(b), (c), ACQ, and so on, depending on supplier and type of member.

Mark, brudda..............

There are other options in your area. I can tell you whom and where - but I have a dog in this fight, so gimme a PM. Not my place to lay claim to the high ground here on the Creek, but, IMO, I have a suggestion that is better quality, and better service........ but that is my dog, eh? Culpepper - meh............. :D :D