Half Blind Dovetails with a Mitered End?

[David Wadstrup]

I've been doing a row of half blind dovetails every day for about 2 weeks now. I've gotten pretty good, and want to take things to the next level -- a mitered end. I haven't been able to turn up much in the way of instruction for this online, but figure they have to be possible. The tricky part, the part I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around, is trying to figure out at what angles each board(of the same thickness) will need to be cut. I imagine this changes depending on the thickness left above the tails on the pin board. Is there a formula to determine this? Does anyone have any words of wisdom, or even basic instruction they'd be able to offer on how to work this kind of joint? I'll take any and all advice!

[Chris Griggs]

Buy this book. Good instruction for mitered corner dovetails, full blind dovetails, and blind miter dovetails.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Dovetail-Furnitures-Signature/dp/0941936678/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390315227&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=ian+kirby+ciompkelte+dovetail

[Zach Dillinger]

So you are trying to make a full-blind dovetail? Maybe I'm not following you.

[David Wadstrup]

No, not full blind. Half blind with the ends of the boards mitered. Instead of half pins on the ends, half tails are left. These are then mitered on edge.

I thought about doing full blinds, but I don't think I could get the seam to look as clean as I would want it to.

[Derek Cohen]

Chris Schwarz has a nice video here:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/video-mitered-shoulder-dovetail

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Wadstrup]

Thanks, Chris. I work in a bookstore and just ordered a copy.

Thank, Derek. I saw this, but I think he's putting the miter on a regular dovetail joint, not a half blind. I didn't watch all the way through, though, so may have missed something?

[Zach Dillinger]

David, I guess I'm trying to figure an application where such a joint (half-blind with mitered edge) would be called for. Or this just a "see if you can do it" kind of thing.

[Daniel Rode]

This is a cosmetic treatment more than anything but it does look very nice when done well. Think of a dovetail box or a drawer with half blinds. The joint, from the top, normally looks like a butt joint. With a mitered half blind, the top looks like a miter but the sides still look like a normal dovetail.


David, I guess I'm trying to figure an application where such a joint (half-blind with mitered edge) would be called for. Or this just a "see if you can do it" kind of thing.

[Zach Dillinger]

This is a cosmetic treatment more than anything but it does look very nice when done well. Think of a dovetail box or a drawer with half blinds. The joint, from the top, normally looks like a butt joint. With a mitered half blind, the top looks like a miter but the sides still look like a normal dovetail.

Having cut mitered dovetails many times, I definitely understand how it would look. I just don't understand why one would do it with a half-blind. A mitered dovetail is usually used in a situation where you need to continue a struck-in molding around a case, in which case either a full-blind or a through dovetail would be used, depending on the level of "fancy" required. I have never seen or heard of a mitered half-blind, which is why I wondered why.

[Chris Griggs]

I feel like it's not a joint you typically see on half blind dovetails, but I don't think doing to half blinds would be any different than on through. Either way you are striking a 45 degree line off the inside edge of the baseline, and then cutting to the line and trimming to until the joint closes. On the blind sorta have a little lip at the end of the 45 where the lap hangs over. I don't recall if the Ian Kirby book I referenced demonstrate it on a half blind or just a through. I does demonstrate a mitered corner on full blind double lap dovetails as well as full blind miter dovetails.

[David Wadstrup]

Exactly. It's just cosmetic preference. I'm going for a cleaner mitered look on the edges of the carcase vs the usual, in my opinion less pretty, butt joint look.

Daniel, have you tried this before?

[Chris Griggs]

Zach. Didn't the PWW Editors blog publish a tutorial you did on miter dovetails? A year or two ago I was asking about full blind dovetails (which is when I got the Kirby book recommended to me), and like a week later you did a write-up didn't you?

[Daniel Rode]

I have seen it done but I've never tried it myself. I'm just learning to cut dovetails, so it's well beyond my skillset.
Exactly. It's just cosmetic preference. I'm going for a cleaner mitered look on the edges of the carcase vs the usual, in my opinion less pretty, butt joint look.

Daniel, have you tried this before?

[Zach Dillinger]

Zach. Didn't the PWW Editors blog publish a tutorial you did on miter dovetails? A year or two ago I was asking about full blind dovetails (which is when I got the Kirby book recommended to me), and like a week later you did a write-up didn't you?

Yes, I wrote that up for PWM and I believe you were the reason why I did it at that time.

The joint that the OP describes shouldn't be any different, except that the top mitered tail will have to be left longer than the other tails to achieve the half-blind joint. So, you will have to cut those tails to an even, square length without being able to shoot them (the top tail will be in the way. It is possible but just doesn't seem to be worth the effort to me. If you want a clean look, go with a full-blind. They are ridiculously easy and thoroughly impressive when done. They might even be easier than a good through-dovetail because, unlike a through dt, you have lots of room to hide errors.

If you try it, post pics. I would like to see how it turns out.

[Daniel Rode]

I can think of many places where I'd like to use a mitered half blind dovetail joint. I first saw it done on a book case. In addition to a cleaner look of the miter, it allowed a bead to be cut all the way around the face. It's the difficulty of cutting the joint that put it out of reach for now. Gotta walk before you run...

[Zach Dillinger]

Daniel, to be clear, I agree with you that the mitered dovetail is a good option. Again, I have used it myself many times. I just don't see why it would be a half-blind. That's all. No big deal.

[Chris Griggs]

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This is what the corner would look like in an HB dovetail. The red circle in highlighting the little "lip" I was talking about. The thin gray lines are the baseline marks The top board running horizontally is the pin board. The miter goes from the baseline to the tips of the tail sockets. The tail board in mitered all the way. When you do this with doulbe lap dovetails there is a another lip that overhangs the endgrain of the pin board..a lip covering the lip. When you do this with full-blind miter dovetails or through the dovetail it just looks like a miter.

Hope this helps.

[David Wadstrup]

You're tempting me to give the full blinds a try, Zach. I've read your tutorial on them(which I loved,) but am VERY nervous about getting the miter to close without even the hint of a gap. I just don't think I have the skill to do it with a chisel. The miter on the half blind really only shows when looking at the joint on its edge. The end tail isn't left any longer than the rest -- the outer surfaces don't show the miter. Or, in other words, the miter doesn't meet at the corner of the outside of the case. It meets at the inside and at the baseline of the tail board. All of this is difficult to put this in words. Sorry if I'm not saying it right.

Chris, I think you mentioning that the 45 will be cut "from the baseline" clicked something for me. And thanks for the drawing!

[Daniel Rode]

Sorry Zach, I wasn't clear enough in my initial reply. For me, it's a purely aesthetic preference where I want to see the pins but not the butted portion. A drawer is a good example. I really like seeing dark pins against lighter sides when the drawer opens but I'd like to see the more elegant miters top and bottom. The book case I mentioned is another. However, I might have used mitered through dovetails on the book case. I've seen that as well and like the look.


Daniel, to be clear, I agree with you that the mitered dovetail is a good option. Again, I have used it myself many times. I just don't see why it would be a half-blind. That's all. No big deal.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Chris envisions it well there. And the only way to avoid it being "short" in some fashion or another would be to leave the portion to be mitered longer than the rest of the board forming the tails. Since the dovetails are showing on one side, you're going to want to be accurate on the end grain, which probably involves shooting it, which is hard to do and leave that piece there. The obvious solution is to glue it on afterwards, but at that point, you might as well just add a mitered strip over the whole casework's face.

[Zach Dillinger]

Sorry Zach, I wasn't clear enough in my initial reply. For me, it's a purely aesthetic preference where I want to see the pins but not the butted portion. A drawer is a good example. I really like seeing dark pins against lighter sides when the drawer opens but I'd like to see the more elegant miters top and bottom. The book case I mentioned is another. However, I might have used mitered through dovetails on the book case. I've seen that as well and like the look.

Gotcha. No big deal. I just see the world from my "no end grain" perspective and take great pains to hide it wherever I can... :) And I've never seen a mitered half-blind in the wild, so to speak, so I was having a hard time seeing its utility.

That's why they make chocolate and vanilla, after all.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, I think you mentioning that the 45 will be cut "from the baseline" clicked something for me. And thanks for the drawing!

Glad it helped. You'll like the Kirby book. Its got all sorts of little sketches like that.

[Pat Barry]

Any chance that someone can post an actual picture or two of the mitered half blind joint we are talking about here? It would be much appreciated sine I don't understand the sketch and the Schwartz video doesn't seem to work for me and it may not even be the right thing anyway.

[Chris Griggs]

Yes, I wrote that up for PWM and I believe you were the reason why I did it at that time.


Yes, its coming back to me now. You did right that because of my inquiry. That was mighty swell of you...I knew there must be some reason I like you.:)

Just looked it up and found. It's a darn good tutorial. Really nice photo work.

[Zach Dillinger]

Yes, its coming back to me now. You did right that because of my inquiry. That was mighty swell of you...I knew there must be some reason I like you.:)

Just looked it up and found. It's a darn good tutorial. Really nice photo work.

Thanks! I shouldn't have used soft white pine for it, that stuff tore out terribly and made everything look like crap, but I needed a wood that would show the pencil lines clearly.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks! I shouldn't have used soft white pine for it, that stuff tore out terribly and made everything look like crap, but I needed a wood that would show the pencil lines clearly.

Well, speaking of soft white BORG pine that splits out, here my contribution of the stuff.


Any chance that someone can post an actual picture or two of the mitered half blind joint we are talking about here? It would be much appreciated sine I don't understand the sketch and the Schwartz video doesn't seem to work for me and it may not even be the right thing anyway.

Work closed due to the crazy snow storm...so I just got home and banged out a joint.

Sorry no pics of cutting it, just wanted to show what it looks like so here's a shot of the join apart, going together and together. If you did this for real you would probably want the pin board and tail board to be a little closer in thickness so that front lip would be narrower. Unlike with regular HBDT's you can't have the tails be longer than the thickness of the board (errr...I don't think) because you need to form a square at the edge for the 45 degree angle to intersect.

280369 280368 280370

[Sam Stephens]

Yes, its coming back to me now. You did right that because of my inquiry. That was mighty swell of you...I knew there must be some reason I like you.:)

Just looked it up and found. It's a darn good tutorial. Really nice photo work.

+1 Very helpful. I remember reading this the first time and realizing it's not that difficult to cut. Setup is everything.

still not sure i follow the logic of the OPs question, but we all have our reasons. in Chris's diagram, doesn't the tail board have to be thinner than the pin board, or the miter can't be 45 degrees?

[Chris Griggs]

In Chris's diagram, doesn't the tail board have to be thinner than the pin board, or the miter can't be 45 degrees?

Yes, it either wouldn't be 45 or it wouldn't be half blind if they were the same thickness.

[David Wadstrup]

Thanks, Chris!!! That's it. A picture really is worth a thousand words. This is exactly what I want to do. I really like the look if the miter on the edge of the boards AND the look of the tails running to the edges rather than the usual half pins.

I'm hoping to get out of work soon, too, so I can go home and try this. Thanks so much for bringing the concept to life

[Zach Dillinger]

Yes, it either wouldn't be 45 or it wouldn't be half blind if they were the same thickness.

This is exactly why I object to the whole idea of the mitered half-blind. I just don't see it as an improvement.

EDIT: Very nicely done Chris. My above sentence is not a knock on your displayed mitered half-blind.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks, Chris!!! That's it. A picture really is worth a thousand words. This is exactly what I want to do. I really like the look if the miter on the edge of the boards AND the look of the tails running to the edges rather than the usual half pins.

I'm hoping to get out of work soon, too, so I can go home and try this. Thanks so much for bringing the concept to life

No problem dude. Been about 6 months since I cut any dovetails, so it was fun to knock some out.


This is exactly why I object to the whole idea of the mitered half-blind. I just don't see it as an improvement.

EDIT: Very nicely done Chris. My above sentence is not a knock on your displayed mitered half-blind.

Thanks! That's funny, I was about to give you grief about bagging on my dovetails (though I new that wasn't your intent :))

Honestly, I can't think of anywhere I'd use them either, but I get the appeal. Different strokes for different folks and such. I have seen something similar done with the double lap version of full blind dovetails.

Like this:

280379

This is the way Ian Kirby's book teaches double laps with what I'm calling a lipped miter. In furniture the only place I've ever seen it used is on the top piece of a slant top desk, where no molding would be applied (actually in the example I'm think of they might not have even miter the ends of the double lap, but its not hard to add the miter if one wants it)

[Winton Applegate]

;)
Woh !
There is real woodworking going on around here !

:p Not just a bunch of plane blade polishing.

[David Wadstrup]

I've never seen the double lap dovetail before. This might actually be a better joint for my purposes. The full blind, of course, would be ideal, but I just don't think I can make that full width miter look nice and SUPER clean and tight. Can't wait for Kirby's book to arrive so I can try this one out.

[Chris Griggs]

The double lap is pretty easy since there are so few show faces and there is no miter all the way down the width to get perfect. It'll probably take a couple practice runs, but I definitely had an easier time learning it than the full blind miter. The double lap is nice to use on a case where you want the tails on top for structural reasons, but don't want them them to show. It gives you a top that is a continuous surface and then if one so chooses the end grain of the exposed lap can get covered with moldings. In such a case, it would technically be easier to just cut a half blind with the pins on top and then cover the tails with moldings, but it generally considered to be structurally better to have the tails on the top/bottom on a freestanding case. Anyway, the Kirby book lays out the steps well. Sometimes it takes a second to orient yourself to the sketches, but everything it pretty well broken down.

[Pat Barry]

...just wanted to show what it looks like so here's a shot of the join apart, going together and together.

280369 280368 280370
Thanks Chris!

[Patrick McCarthy]

Well, speaking of soft white BORG pine that splits out, here my contribution of the stuff.



Work closed due to the crazy snow storm...so I just got home and banged out a joint.

Sorry no pics of cutting it, just wanted to show what it looks like so here's a shot of the join apart, going together and together. If you did this for real you would probably want the pin board and tail board to be a little closer in thickness so that front lip would be narrower. Unlike with regular HBDT's you can't have the tails be longer than the thickness of the board (errr...I don't think) because you need to form a square at the edge for the 45 degree angle to intersect.

280369 280368 280370

Chris, that was very kind of you; a class act.

[Derek Cohen]

;)
Woh !
There is real woodworking going on around here !

:p Not just a bunch of plane blade polishing.

.. or twiddling knurled wotsits. :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hilton Ralphs]

.. or twiddling knurled wotsits. :D


So that's what happens to your wotsits when you get old. No wonder pensioner peeing is a problem.

[Jim Matthews]

Didn't Michael Fortune just publish and article on this in FWW?

I remember he had some slick jig that used a trim router to waste most
of the material between the pins, which were then cut by hand.

The trim router worked to a fixed depth, and that left a very even miter.

A similar clamping mechanism would make paring to the miter, simpler.

[Chris Griggs]

Didn't Michael Fortune just publish and article on this in FWW?


I just looked this up online. Interesting. His are fully mitered across the entire joint, but not blind...the tails and the tail sockets are actually mitered, so the joint is blind on the pin side, but the tails extend all the way to edge on the tails side. I also ran across an article that did what Zach originally suggested they'd be like. That is the tails are cut back and the there is a piece for a miter left long at the end of each board,so the that tails look like standard HBDTs but the mitered part extends fully to the edge. guess there are a number of ways to do this.

[Chris Griggs]

Ok, I just went down and tried what I'll call the Jeff Metcalf method which I believe is how Zach was envision mitering a half-blind. I'm calling it that because I ran across it in Fine Woodworking #213 , pp. 90 June 3, 2010 in an article by Jeff Metcalf. The Fortune method that Jim was referring to is from Fine Woodworking #236 , pp. 78-82 October 3, 2013 is really a power tool approach the way its described. I'm sure it could be done with handtools, but I don't feel like going to figure it out right now.

For the Metcalf method you NEED to make sure your boards are the same thickeness. The half blind effect is created by cutting back the center of the end of the board where the tails will be cut and leaving the edges long for the miters. Mark the baseline BEFORE you remove that center area as you want the basline's distance from the end to be the same as the thickness as the boards.

To remove the waste I marked a line in about and 1/8 of an inch on both side and about the same distance in from the sides, sawed down the edges ( saw past the line that is 1/8" down and all the way to the baseline on the tail board), then chopped to the line that is 1/8 in from both sides to remove the waste. I then laid out, sawed, and cut the tails per usual.

280538 280539

From here I waited to cut the miters on the tail board so I could accurately transfer the marks from the tails and what I'll call the "ears" that the miter are cut from. Once you make those ears and cut the tails it is pretty much business as usual. Lay the tail board on the pin board, mark your lines and saw. The only thing different is that for the lines you marked from the ears you only want to saw the line down on the inside face and across the top (so you are sawing at a 45). You then mark and cut the miters on the ears and on the pin board and put it together.

Here are pic of the finished joint apart, going together, together, and then side by side with the previous joint I posted with a bit of BLO rubbed in to show the joint better.

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[Brian Holcombe]

Those are gorgeous.

So, there are scenarios for the pieces that I build where I could see something like this being useful.

[Zach Dillinger]

Ok, I just went down and tried what I'll call the Jeff Metcalf method which I believe is how Zach was envision mitering a half-blind. I'm calling it that because I ran across it in Fine Woodworking #213 , pp. 90 June 3, 2010 in an article by Jeff Metcalf. The Fortune method that Jim was referring to is from Fine Woodworking #236 , pp. 78-82 October 3, 2013 is really a power tool approach the way its described. I'm sure it could be done with handtools, but I don't feel like going to figure it out right now.

For the Metcalf method you NEED to make sure your boards are the same thickeness. The half blind effect is created by cutting back the center of the end of the board where the tails will be cut and leaving the edges long for the miters. Mark the baseline BEFORE you remove that center area as you want the basline's distance from the end to be the same as the thickness as the boards.

To remove the waste I marked a line in about and 1/8 of an inch on both side and about the same distance in from the sides, sawed down the edges ( saw past the line that is 1/8" down and all the way to the baseline on the tail board), then chopped to the line that is 1/8 in from both sides to remove the waste. I then laid out, sawed, and cut the tails per usual.

280538 280539

From here I waited to cut the miters on the tail board so I could accurately transfer the marks from the tails and what I'll call the "ears" that the miter are cut from. Once you make those ears and cut the tails it is pretty much business as usual. Lay the tail board on the pin board, mark your lines and saw. The only thing different is that for the lines you marked from the ears you only want to saw the line down on the inside face and across the top (so you are sawing at a 45). You then mark and cut the miters on the ears and on the pin board and put it together.

Here are pic of the finished joint apart, going together, together, and then side by side with the previous joint I posted with a bit of BLO rubbed in to show the joint better.

280540 280541 280542 280543 280544

Nicely done. That is indeed exactly what I sketched when trying to figure out why this method would be used and what it would be used for.

[Chris Griggs]

Nicely done. That is indeed exactly what I sketched when trying to figure out why this method would be used and what it would be used for.

Thanks. Kinda a fun cool little joint to cut. Pretty easy for anyone who can cut HBDTs. Honestly, I'm can't think of a piece of furniture I'd use it on either (I think you've rubbed off on me). I think it might be cool on a little decorative box or something though.