Lie-Nielsen Plow Plane

[Maurice Ungaro]

So, I’ve been corresponding with a woodworking author/teacher, and inquiring about metal plow planes. In particular, I asked about LV’s small plow. Their response was that it’s a fine tool, it’s best for smaller work (read: boxes, small furniture, etc.), and that the depth stop was not too reliable. The advice I got was to either look for a Stanley 45, or wait a month for the LN plow to be released. This person had been using it extensively and prefers it. Just called LN, to throw my name in the hat of those wanting to buy one. They informed me that they are not yet taking pre-orders, but will be doing so “before winter ends”.
So, anybody else on the list of those wishing to buy? Anyone heard preliminary reports?

[Hilton Ralphs]

I don't have a Veritas but I've only ever come across one person who didn't like the plough plane. That was Alf over at Cornish Workshop. How deep or how wide do you need to make grooves that the Veritas won't suffice?

I suppose it's one of those petrol vs diesel arguments, some will love wooden ploughs whilst others love the metal cousins.

What I do know is that the Lie-Nielsen will be significantly more expensive.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Hilton, the word I got was that the LN version will run $250-ish.
There was also talk a few years ago the LV was developing a large plow (plough) plane. That was back in 2011, and I wonder if that got canned, or whether the LN version will spur Rob & Co. on to bring it to market.

[David Weaver]

I haven't had any issues with the lee valley plane, it's actually a spectacular little plane. If one was concerned about the depth stop, coarse sandpaper around the post of the depth stop in a circular fashion would improve grip.

It's fine for anything that you cut grooves on , except maybe very heavy 1/2" grooves in hardwood, and it's fantastically precise.

I'd have a wooden plow as an addition for larger grooves, or even a stanley 45, before I'd pay more than the LV plow costs. I didn't even know LN was making a plow plane, but googled it and the pictures of what may be a prototype online are pretty gross looking compared to the very nice castings of the millers patent planes, but looks aren't everything.

Buying a wooden plow plane can be a bit of a trick, though, at least getting one with good matching irons. It's still the route I'd go (or did go).

[Mike Brady]

Post deleted.

[David Weaver]

Hilton, the word I got was that the LN version will run $250-ish.
There was also talk a few years ago the LV was developing a large plow (plough) plane. That was back in 2011, and I wonder if that got canned, or whether the LN version will spur Rob & Co. on to bring it to market.

that's not too bad then. strike my negative opinion about prices.

[Maurice Ungaro]

that's not too bad then. strike my negative opinion about prices.

David, that's a pre-production price. Who knows what will happen when reality hits.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, until then people can get the LV plow and get work done without issue at a known price.

And a wooden plow.

if you get a wooden plow that can cut all the way to the fence, then you can just get the wooden plow. I doubt anyone with a good wooden plow would ever have a desire for a metal one.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Yeah, until then people can get the LV plow and get work done without issue at a known price.

And a wooden plow.

if you get a wooden plow that can cut all the way to the fence, then you can just get the wooden plow. I doubt anyone with a good wooden plow would ever have a desire for a metal one.

Good points, David.

[David Weaver]

Just to belabor it (don't people usually say "not to belabor it"?)...

.. it's not always easy to get a great wooden plow plane on the first try, sometimes you have to get a couple. I don't know where someone would go to get one now, but the two I got, one came from ebay a while ago ($100 including irons) and another one from Chris Vandiver (I can't remember what that one was).

Something in the $150 range with matched irons is probably a good target. IF you have to get two to get a good one, then that's fine. You can resell the first. I just prefer to use them when I can, the wooden fence is nicer and they feel more like a running shoe and less like a cement boot, if you know what i mean.

[Maurice Ungaro]

I like the running shoe comparison. I might investigate a few wood plows tomorrow. At least attempt to. Going down to Pittsboro to visit the vintage tool store above Roy Underhill's school. We'll see what I find. Good thing there, is that you can try out anything you want to. He always has a good supply of the Stanley versions in metal, and occassionally a few woodies.

[Derrell W Sloan]

Just a FYI, Garrett Wade sells old English wooden plow planes - just an alternative to ebay

http://www.garrettwade.com/antique-english-plough-plane/p/02D12.06/

I haven't bought one from them but they have the planes and the irons and I would expect something purchased from GW would be a good worker. If not I'd bet they would take care of you - something you can't always count on from ebay.

[Chris Griggs]

There was also talk a few years ago the LV was developing a large plow (plough) plane. That was back in 2011, and I wonder if that got canned, or whether the LN version will spur Rob & Co. on to bring it to market.

I believe (and I'm not certain) that the expansion kit was developed instead...again, not sure if that's the case.

Love the small plow though! I think its one of the most point on shoot tools out there. I've never had any issue with the size or the depth stop on mine...though I think I did rough up the post right away, as I do that with any locking post like that.

If you don't have an immediate need for a plow though there is nothing wrong with waiting and seeing which one suits you best(assuming that it is on the very near horizon) Sounds like the prices will be pretty comparable. Given that you'll have it for the rest of your woodworking life its not a bad idea to get the one that calls to you most strongly.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I have to hone it up and really put it to use, but Lee Richmond at The Best Things hooked me up with a plough and some matched irons after contacting him at Zach's suggestion. I don't remember the exact price, it was a little bit higher than I might have gotten on the open market, but it was worth it for Lee to get me a set of irons that he believes will fit the plane and match well enough to use the same wedge. The eventual plan was/is to make my own plane like Derek did - now I don't know if I'll ever get there.

Depth stops are nice, but for the longest time, I used my Mujingfang without one. When I really needed one, I double-stick-taped a piece of thin stock next to the skate, but most of the time, my grooves just need to be "deep enough" without going through - not overly difficult.

I have an old "Alumo" weatherstripping plane with an 1/8th iron that I pretty much leave set up to cut box and drawer grooves - It's handy enough, I've been thinking about making a couple fixed-fence planes, maybe an 1/8th" and a 1/4", for drawer bottom grooves.

For wider grooves, I have a couple wider-ish irons for my mujingfang, which isn't the most ergonomic plane, so maybe that colors my experience, but I always found it easier to do a couple of thin grooves to define the edges, and snap out any waste in the middle and then clean up quickly with a bevel down chisel. I can rip a pretty deep groove pretty darn quickly with a very narrow cutter and not much effort.

[lowell holmes]

I purchased a wooden plow plane from the Sawmill Creek classified section. It came with one iron, 1/2" IIRC. I since bought some irons on line and they don't fit. I can grind the width to fit, but the escarpment (? is that the proper term) is close, but the skate does not fit the irons in the plane. I'm thinking the skate can be modified to fit the irons.

Am I barking up the wrong tree? The plane is useless without irons to fit.

[Tony Wilkins]

I purchased a wooden plow plane from the Sawmill Creek classified section. It came with one iron, 1/2" IIRC. I since bought some irons on line and they don't fit. I can grind the width to fit, but the escarpment (? is that the proper term) is close, but the skate does not fit the irons in the plane. I'm thinking the skate can be modified to fit the irons.

Am I barking up the wrong tree? The plane is useless without irons to fit.

That's the problem. The planes were built around the set of irons and the irons range over a wide number of styles. Phil Edwards was going to make some plough planes around some vintage sets of irons - was emailing him about it before I went into the hospital and had to change email addresses so I don't know what become of the project.

[Jim Koepke]

I doubt anyone with a good wooden plow would ever have a desire for a metal one.

I have a wooden plough that I used for a few years. Now I much prefer my Stanley 45s and a Stanley 50. For me they are much easier to set up, but as always,280292

Maybe if my only purpose was to plow slots or rabbets the woodie would be great. Though it really isn't very good at rabbets of 1/2" or larger.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

Maurice. Have you seen the video of it in use? Start at about 3 minute in on this video (a little sooner to see the new honing guide). It does indeed seem very well designed. The shaving ejection on looks particularly impressive.


http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/woodworking-in-america-2013/

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Looks a lot better in that video than some of the images I feel like I had seen previously floated around on line. Hard to tell from the picks, but darn, he's using a much shallower cut than I do when I'm plowing a tiny groove like that, though! I'm used to a groove like that taking half as long, and sounding like a zipper-from-hell during the cut. And the curls coming off getting wrapped around my wrist in the process, and the cat dragging off one of them to chase around the room.


Maurice. Have you seen the video of it in use? Start at about 3 minute in on this video (a little sooner to see the new honing guide). It does indeed seem very well designed. The shaving ejection on looks particularly impressive.


http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/woodworking-in-america-2013/

[David Weaver]

Looks a lot better in that video than some of the images I feel like I had seen previously floated around on line. Hard to tell from the picks, but darn, he's using a much shallower cut than I do when I'm plowing a tiny groove like that, though! I'm used to a groove like that taking half as long, and sounding like a zipper-from-hell during the cut. And the curls coming off getting wrapped around my wrist in the process, and the cat dragging off one of them to chase around the room.

I think we could get more people to take the tools seriously if they saw them in authentic use like that. Most of the shavings that come out of my rabbet and plow plane are broken all over because of the thickness you describe.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Well, I saw the video, and quite frankly, don't see why I wouldn't go for a 43, or 45 if I were to pick up a metal body plow. I would like T&G capability, but there are options out there.

[Chris Griggs]

Looks a lot better in that video than some of the images I feel like I had seen previously floated around on line. Hard to tell from the picks, but darn, he's using a much shallower cut than I do when I'm plowing a tiny groove like that, though! I'm used to a groove like that taking half as long, and sounding like a zipper-from-hell during the cut. And the curls coming off getting wrapped around my wrist in the process, and the cat dragging off one of them to chase around the room.

Yeah. I would legitimately be interested in seeing a video of that thing taking some serious hogging cuts. That would give a much better picture of the its chip ejection as well as any possible advantage of the larger size. I don't have any intention of parting with my LV plow but I'm still intrigued by the idea of seeing the LN getting some real use. I'm sure CS or someone will post a video of more typical use when it gets released. I'm also curious to see what blade sizes it will have, what it will come with (I assume base price will just be with a 1/4") and how additional blades cost.

[Maurice Ungaro]

I've heard that T&G cutters are not going to be offered.

[Chris Griggs]

I've heard that T&G cutters are not going to be offered.

That doesn't really surprise me. It requires and additional skate and they already make two T&G planes. I'd have hard time parting with my T&G cutters on my small plow. Not that I wouldn't like a dedicated T&G plane...I'd actually really love to have a dedicated Stanley or LN49 since most my T&G is in 1/2" stock and it would be nice not to have to change the plow over, but I'd still want my tongue cutters for my plow for those rare occasions time when I'm cutting T&Gs in 3/4 or for where I am cutting an 1/8" t&g in thin 3/8 or less stock...its nice to be able to cover all my needed sizes without buying multiple planes.

[Maurice Ungaro]

So Chris, did you go with the full LV Small Plow kit, or did you just select the cutters you wanted?

[Chris Griggs]

So Chris, did you go with the full LV Small Plow kit, or did you just select the cutters you wanted?

I have the full kit. But, full disclosure, I didn't buy it. I DID buy the small plow with the original full set of blades, but the wide blade attachment, all the wide blades, and all 3 tongue blade were given to me for evaluation of the tool and the instruction manual. I just recently bought the blade role too which is definitely great to have.

I really like having all 3 t&g size and have used all 3 on projects, but I can only think of one time I've used the wide blades though (if I didn't have rabbet plane they'd likely see more use) However, at the point you are buying the attachment and more then a couple additional blades a la carte its only about $40 more to just buy the whole thing, so its probably worthwhile to do so if you have any inclination that you might use the wide blades too. On the flip side if you don't think you'll ever use the wide blades and don't think you'll ever need to cut anything other 1/4 and/or 3/16 t&G a la carte might be the way to go.

[Anthony Moumar]

I have a LV small plow and I did have to rough up the depth stop post but have never had any further problems with it. I consider waiting for the LN version but decided that I wanted the T&G blades which I now use all the time. I ended up getting the complete set because by the time I added up the cost of just buying the blades I wanted it was nearly the same. Living in Australia I can always sell the LV for more that I paid for it and get the LN if it turns out I want it.

[Peter Milano]

Just saw your post. I was at a LN tool event in Brooklyn on January 3rd. Deneb said the plane would be coming out very soon. (early Feb.) Well it is now almost April and no plow plane. I sent an email to LN earlier this week, March 25th or so, and they basically said it will be ready when it is ready.

Pete

[David Dalzell]

I have had the LV Small Plow Plane for about six months now and I love it. I never had a problem with the depth stop, but I roughed it up with sandpaper, just in case. I have used it for drawer bottom grooving (smaller work) up to panel grooving on a Side Board (larger work). I never had a problem with size. In fact I never even knew that some considered it too small. I love it and would buy it again in a flash.

[Simon MacGowen]

I have had no problem with my Plow plane and the depth stop works without any roughing up. Do some of you hold the tool too tight and too hard down? If the cutter is sharp, there is no need too press the tool too hard down and the force should be on the pushing.

So far, none of my projects couldn't be handled by the so called small plow and I don't see any need for a large one as in those odd cases, I would turn to my tailed router.

Finally, had I waited for the LN plow to come out, I would not have had any plow plane experience for the past three years. LN has kept us in the dark on this and like other new product releases in the past, their record of timing hasn't been good, to say the least. Still waiting to hear more about the new honing jig. It may not be a fair comparison, but when one sees a prototype tool at a LV booth in shows, one can tell the date you can order it is not years away. I can't justify waiting for a LN tool when the company is not telling me enough for me to decide if I should wait.

In fact, I think any vendor, save the one owner or very small starting entity, shouldn't put out a prototype tool if it doesn't plan to or can't bring it to the market within a reasonable amount of time. To me it's 6 months or, in the case of unforeseen circumstances affecting tool development and production, a year.

Simon

[Anthony Moumar]

I have had no problem with my Plow plane and the depth stop works without any roughing up. Do some of you hold the tool too tight and too hard down? If the cutter is sharp, there is no need too press the tool too hard down and the force should be on the pushing.

So far, none of my projects couldn't be handled by the so called small plow and I don't see any need for a large one as in those odd cases, I would turn to my tailed router.

Finally, had I waited for the LN plow to come out, I would not have had any plow plane experience for the past three years. LN has kept us in the dark on this and like other new product releases in the past, their record of timing hasn't been good, to say the least. Still waiting to hear more about the new honing jig. It may not be a fair comparison, but when one sees a prototype tool at a LV booth in shows, one can tell the date you can order it is not years away. I can't justify waiting for a LN tool when the company is not telling me enough for me to decide if I should wait.

Simon

I had problems with the depth stop slipping when ploughing groves on small box sides and draws. Sometimes I feel the need to put extra pressure on top of the plane to stop it from tipping on pieces that are smaller than the plan. I just gave it a quick rub with some 80 grit sandpaper and haven't had it slip since.

The name "Small" plow plane does it a disservice. I've also never found it to be too small for for anything. I do put an auxiliary fence on it for larger tasks but I think that would a good idea on any plough plane. I've done tongue and groove joints on 1.8m long boards with no problems so I don't see any cases where it would be too small. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges but in my opinion the Small Plow is one of the best planes Veritas makes.

I'm glad I didn't decide to wait as well. In my opinion a company shouldn't announce something unless that can also give a solid date that it will be available. I love LN and hold their tools and customer service in high regard but I think they are letting themselves down a bit with the cat and mouse game that's occurred with both the honing jig and plough plane. I definitely think it's better to release a product later that meets their outstanding standards rather than release something that is half baked but some solid information from them would be nice.

[Jim Koepke]

I definitely think it's better to release a product later that meets their outstanding standards rather than release something that is half baked but some solid information from them would be nice.

The idea of taking a prototype to a show so they can get feedback from people who will possibly buy and use a plane is a lot better than putting something on the market and hearing, "if only it had... "

There could be a problem in production of design. A company would not be wise to release this kind of information as when it did come to market their announcement could come back to haunt them even though it had been corrected.

We see this kind of thing all the time when people are waiting for a new tool to come to market. We have LV and LN both not wanting to put a tool to market until it is ready. In one case LV released the Preston reproduction spokeshave on what may have been a hurried schedule. Rob Lee said this was a kind of promotional to introduce people to the PMv11 blades. It was also probably good for the Christmas shoppers. There were a few less than stellar reviews. Mine wasn't a great out of the box experience. So I spent a small amount of time fettling and now it is one of my favorite spokeshaves to use.

In contrast we have two other large tool makers Wood River and Stanley. People suggest the version 3 of Wood River planes are okay but there have been a few problems with chip breakers. Stanley had a delay on their release and then the items were problematic from the start.

I would rather have the patience to let a manufacturer get it right than to have to accept something that is flawed.

A little bit of fettling as with the LV spokeshave is fine with me.

Having a major flaw in the design foisted off on me is not something I can accept.

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

I fully agree that a vendor shouldn't release a product that it thinks it is not ready and that applies to any product, including cars and parts (look at the predicament GM is now in). It is, however, not a good thing to do for a vendor to keep "testing" a new product in the public domain (tradeshows, e.g.); that should be done behind-the-scenes with "testers" -- in-house or external ones. Only when something that has gone through all the internal/external testing and reviews and changes needed and is in its final development stage (and that means within 6 months or 3 months of its release, depending on what it is) should it be on display for public comments or feedback.

I hope it is not really the case. But if the official reply to an inquiry about a launch/ready date from LN is that it is ready when it is ready, whoever wrote that reply needs to be taught how to produce customer-friendly letters.

I am lucky to have passed the reproduction spokeshave made by LV. Whether it was a QC issue or a production screw-up, I do not want to fix a tool when bought new. For the same reasons, I avoid WR planes.
Simon

[lowell holmes]

I bought the reproduction spoke shave when it was introduced. It came out of the box working with no issues. The only fettling required was honing the blade a bit.

[Jim Koepke]

I bought the reproduction spoke shave when it was introduced. It came out of the box working with no issues. The only fettling required was honing the blade a bit.

Surely I forgot:

286077

jtk

[Peter Milano]

Sorry, it's ready when it's ready was my paraphrasing of the reply from LN. I didn't mean to say they were flip about it. The reply was very diplomatic and professional about not wanting to release an item before they had fully tested it etc. The same sentiment that has been expressed by several posts as being a positive. I translated ( summed up) their reply as it's ready when it's ready. Sorry if I gave a negative impression of the LN response it wasn't meant that way
Pete

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Reviving this from the dead rather than starting a new thread. Any word on the LN plough? It was supposed to be released right about now according to the interview with Thomas Lie-Nielsen on Shop Talk Live. I really need one and have been saving a gift certificate for months hoping to be buyer #1.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm giving it another month or so then buying the veritas.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I would be perfectly happy with the Veritas but the LN prototype looked hefty. I like hefty. I would like to see what they offer as far as irons for it.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Malcolm, when I was researching it last year, I was told that it was a sparse complement of blades. No TONGUE CREATING ability. Then again, a match plane takes care of that.

[Jim Koepke]

No grooving ability.

My brain must have fried. My understanding is that is exactly what a plow plane is supposed to do, make grooves of a predetermined size.

jtk

[paul cottingham]

My brain must have fried. My understanding is that is exactly what a plow plane is supposed to do, make grooves of a predetermined size.

jtk

i was thinking the same thing.

[Marc Seguin]

Perhaps he meant 'tonguing' ability ? :p

[Derek Cohen]

Just a reminder for those that did not see the thread that inclded this tip several months ago, if you are experiencing a slipping depth stop on a Veritas plane, such as the Small Plow, there is a simple and permanent fix ...

The problem is due to the high level of polish on the shaft. This prevents the clamp locking down tightly.

1. Sand the rod with 240 grit to remove the shine.

2. Add a slot to the knob so as to tighten/loosen with a screwdriver. This alone can make all the difference (I used a Dremel. You can use a hack saw).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/LV%20planes/Slots1_zpsaa8fa799.jpg

Beyond this, the Veritas/LV is a wonderful, balanced and versatlie plough plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Hughto]

Hey, Weaver-mon, I'd PM you but somehow can't - maybe due to "guest"? Wher you been and how you been?

[J. Greg Jones]

2. Add a slot to the knob so as to tighten/loosen with a screwdriver. This alone can make all the difference (I used a Dremel. You can use a hack saw).

Derek, did you document somewhere how you went about doing this with a Dremel? I cannot imagine that you freehanded the cut?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Greg

I know that I have written about this before, even posted pics. But I do not recall putting it up on my website.

In any event, I just freehand the Dremel grinding the slot.

If you are concerned about accuracy, use a thin magic marker (in Oz we refer to them as a Texta) to mark a thin line, and lightly run the blade along this. I have not bothered, but just eyed it. Clamp the screw in a vise.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Ritter]

As Derek said it is quite easy, use a cut off wheel. If the screw is held in a vise you can eyeball the vise jaws to center the wheel and visually keep the cut aligned.
jim

[J. Greg Jones]

Ah, a cutoff wheel-that makes sense-thanks. I was thinking small end mill cutter, and I couldn't imagine free handing with that.

[Maurice Ungaro]

My brain must have fried. My understanding is that is exactly what a plow plane is supposed to do, make grooves of a predetermined size.

jtk

Ha! Jim, it's MY brain that's been fried! Moving has done me in. I meant to say no tongue creating ability. Sorry, mea culpa maxima.

[Kees Heiden]

When I make a slotted screw I start with a hacksaw to make a slot. Just freehanding it in the vise. That is always too thin, so I get after it with the thinnest flat needle file I have. In theory you can even work the slot a bit more to the right or left with the file, but in practice I find it follows the hacksaw slot accurately.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Not being able to do tongues is certainly a downer. I could use a rabbet plane to do it in two steps I guess. I was really hoping for a tongue and groove option but since the already sell a t&g plane, I suspected they might not make it an option on this one.

[paul cottingham]

Slotting the screws with a hacksaw was easy. i stuck the screw in the jaws of my vice and sawed away. Use a parallel sided flatblade to turn it. Works great.

[Jim Koepke]

Not being able to do tongues is certainly a downer. I could use a rabbet plane to do it in two steps I guess. I was really hoping for a tongue and groove option but since the already sell a t&g plane, I suspected they might not make it an option on this one.

Getting a Stanley 45 to work can be an intimidating hassle. Once all the problems get worked out, it is a very versatile tool.

To me it is kind of surprising Lie-Nielsen isn't interested in reviving this or something like it. The last one made to the same specs as the Stanley 45 to my knowledge was made by Clifton. It was on sale for a price north of $600. Not a great price for the budget minded.

My education on a few of the issues relevant to the #45 seems to expand every time one is used.

jtk

[Kent A Bathurst]

Ha! Jim, it's MY brain that's been fried! Moving has done me in. I meant to say no tongue creating ability. Sorry, mea culpa maxima.

You've been chasing that unicorn so long, you forgot what it actually is supposed to look like. :D

YOu in P'Tree City now?

[Maurice Ungaro]

Kent, I looking for that paisley unicorn with butterfly wings, smoking a hookah. It's out there, somewhere!
Yup, in PTC. Have to head to Lenox today to hit up the Apple Store. Thought I'd swing over to Highland Hardware to get reacquainted. Want to meet up?

[Brian Holcombe]

Has anyone been in contact with DL Barrett and sons, their site is down. If thy still exist I may look into having them build a plane and just go that route.

[Cody Kemble]

I gave in last spring. The veritas is great. I originally had trouble keeping it square to my work, but a small wooden fence fixed that.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Cody, I went the same route. No complaints.

[paul cottingham]

I can't push the right handed plow due to neuropathic pain. So, I pull it. That makes it much easier to keep the fence against the work.
i finally sold it and bought a left handed one. I pull it sometimes as well.