Initial questions about desktop laser options for engraving anodised aluminium.

[Dan Kozakewycz]

Hello SMC, UK based n00b here with some interest in purchasing my first laser.


A bit of background, I have a new product which is manufactured on a laser machine and I am currently paying a studio to create these for me on a Speedy 500 which has been fine. The costs are expensive but manageable if I get batches of products done in one go to fill up the work area. I took some of my products to a large exhibition show recently and it looks like I may landed myself an order in the region of £10k from a single reseller. The nature of the product means that each piece is individual and will be ordered individually, meaning that the batch orders are unsuitable for my business model and the costs for individual pieces does not provide an adequate margin. As such, I have been looking in to a desktop laser like the Trotec Rayjet or Epilog Zing, they appear to be perfect for me as start up business.


I'm looking for some advice from the members here as to what would be best for my requirements really. My products are raster engraved on anodised aluminium, and I will be looking to do glass too in future. The standard size is 300mm x 400mm (11.8" x 15.7mm) and the detail level needs to be excellent, I need a very fine minimum stroke width and the ability to clearly engrave text down to very small sizes. My current pieces are cut on a Speedy 500 and I can't really tell any difference between a 1pt and .5pt line on the finished article, also it seems 4pt is about the smallest I can go and still be readable.

A little research suggests I need a 1.5" lens for improved detail, but I am totally perplexed on what I need out of all the available options. Does anyone have any recommendations on what I should be asking for quotes on, based on my use? I do not want to spend more than I have to as the machines are already a considerable outlay.


My other question would be on exhausts. I am looking to run this machine at home, though what that home is, I don't yet know (buying my first house in the next coouple of months) Is it something that could practically be installed in a room in the house, or would it really need to be in a garage? What sort of noise levels can be expected when running? I have no intention of cutting particularly 'fumey' materials like wood, paper, leather etc, if that makes any difference. The exhausts do seem to be a significant cost so again, I don't want to buy more than I absolutely need.


Initially, I would only be looking to produce my own products on this machine. I have no problems with picking up new software/equipment, but how easy is it going to be for me to start creating my products? Am I likely to be spending months optimising settings and wasting material, or with the one primary material that I use being AA, is it something that can realistically be set up and running relatively quickly?

TIA for all advice!

[Tim Bateson]

For starters, you have picked one of the easiest materials to work with. Anodized Aluminum is nearly a no-brainer. To do it properly, it takes very little power. If your material is COMPLETELY flat & level, than the 1.5" lens is your best option.

[AL Ursich]

With that ease of product, you picked the right place to learn about Laser Engravers. This topic gets posted most often of all the topics and a search here will turn up hours of reading with all the answers you are looking for. As for the Exhaust System, prices for that are not really that high. Most Laser Engravers have the standards of what is required and it is easy to match a blower to a pipe system. Some even recommend having the exhaust in a outside area so you don't have pressure leaks in the People Space.

Good Luck,

AL

[Keith Upton]

Hi Dan,

I've just bought an Epilog Mini 24 in the past month to product my own products (that I used to outsources to the tune of $8k a year). I've found that I can dial in the settings for a given material with in about 30 mins (a dense foam with a pressure sensitive adhesive backing being the only exception so far) and with very little material waste.

I've not done AA yet, but I think it would be just as easy to dial in. If you have already been doing the artwork design and layout in the graphics program, your biggest hurdle has already been passed.

I have my laser setup on my desk in my home office and I can run it and the exhaust (a 440cfm inline 6" unit) when the kids are sleeping in the rooms next to me and below me. So noise is not a real big issue (it's all fans anyway, so it's just white noise that most people tune out if they are not right next to it).

I don't have much experience at all, but hopefully this helps some.

[Dee Gallo]

Welcome to the Creek, Dan!

AA is not only easy to work with, but it also produces the least fumes and soot of all the substrates we use. So you're in good shape there, as long as you have a decent "regular" exhaust system. I have my lasers inside my home, with a blower outside the house in an enclosed and vented box. There is very little noise inside and no fumes. Just keep the run as short and straight as you can, I used plastic pipes which are as smooth as possible... corrugated pipes are not good, even though they are bendable.

Once you learn how to focus well, you should be able to get great detail assuming your AA is of good quality. BTW - you SHOULD be able to see a difference between 1 pt and 1/2 pt lines.

Good luck, read all the related posts you can, there is a TON of info here for you. Ask questions, people here are helpful and knowledgable.

cheers, dee

[Henri Sallinen]

Just like Dee said, If you are only going to laser Anodized Aluminum, then it would be safe to assume that you can easily vent outside and not get any complaints about smell. Only thing to keep in mind is the noise that comes from the exhaust blower, but this can be easily managed with a diy soundproof box / noise reducing duct piece.

Also if your runs arent that many, then I suggest buying a smaller, low wattage machine since good quality AA doens't need a lot of power to mark well.

[Dan Kozakewycz]

Excellent stuff, so a 30W should be fine for me then, and keep it to A3 size. :)

I spoke to Trotec last night about their Rayjet, they confirmed that with AA I could actually get away with a hi... er... hi-something filter and not need to vent outside if only doing AA. The filter was £1k though, so maybe ducting outside might be cheaper...

Are there any other machines that would be suitable for me? The Trotec/Epilog machines are undoubtedly brilliant, however they are expensive for me as a startup. I'm not really sold on the Chinese stuff as I don't really trust it's accuracy, reliability or support. I am well aware of the old "Buy cheap, buy twice" rule so if the Rayjet/Zing really are the best then that is what I will get. My customers are going to be very discerning over quality of the products so accuracy is of the utmost importance.

The deal with the Rayjet allowing you do pay a smaller deposit and effectively rent the machine out as you use it, up to the point it is paid off, is highly appealing. I wonder if Epilog offer anything similar.

I forgot to mention about being a SMC member though for the discount. Is it significant?

[Keith Upton]

I'm not sure about in the UK, but Epilog did not have anything like that here in the US when I bought mine last month. They do have a good leasing company that work with (again, here in the US) and my Mini 24 only cost me $1300 up front. Leasing could also have some good tax benefits for you as well.

[Dan Hintz]

I can't really tell any difference between a 1pt and .5pt line on the finished article

This shouldn't come as a real surprise once you think about it in terms of dot size. A 2" lens will have a 5 mil spot size. A 0.5 point font has a height of 7 mils... your entire letter is nearly the same size as the engraver's dot. At 1 point, you'd have a max of 3 rows of dots to make up a single letter (and that's in ideal conditions). A 1.5" lens brings the dot size down to around 3 mils, which would be the minimum I would suggest for a 1 point font, but even then it's going to look sloppy... legible, but sloppy. something in the 3-4 point font size is much more manageable.

[Dan Kozakewycz]

Ah, is there a difference between stroke and font?

I have strokes of 1pt and 0.5pt, and I cannot tell much difference between them. My smallest font height is 4pt and engraves clearly.

[David Somers]

Dan K,

A font just refers to the typeface, like Courier or Helvetica.
A font can be presented in 3 ways.
By raster (basically made up of dots like the old dot matrix printers?)
By Vector or Outline. In this type the font is made up of an outline that is created by the curves and lines of a vector graphic. It is outlined though rather than solid. It can be filled to appear solid, but is still outlined.
By Stroke. Think of stroke as a vector font where the font is NOT outlined, but is defined by drawing curves and lines to represent the center line of the font. You affect the appearance of the font by thickening the center line rather than filling it like you would with an outline font.

Does that make sense? Another way to put it might be to say a vector font is outlined like you might outline the shape of a person. Then you might fill that outline with colors from your box of crayolas.
A Stroke Font would be a person represented by stick figure rather than an outline. To get a bolder font you would thicken the lines that make up the stick figure rather than filling an outline.

Am I stating this correctly everyone?

The concepts are the same on any computer generated font. But the actual application can vary depending on how you output it. In our case there is a difference between cutting a font with a laser and engraving a font. And some approaches work better than others on the engraving side depending on what you want for an end result.

Dave

[Dan Hintz]

Ah, is there a difference between stroke and font?

Rereading the quote I grabbed from your initial post, I guess I should have asked for clarification on what you were specifying. If you were specifically talking about 0.5-1 point fonts, then what I said was applicable.

If you were truly talking about 0.5-1 point lines, then you should be able to tell the difference between the two. A 0.5 point line should be realizable using a 2" lens at 1000dpi (and come pretty close at 500dpi)... things get even better for a 1 point line.

[Dan Kozakewycz]

OK well maybe the studio is running the machine at <500dpi, I can certainly see small lines on the raster filled areas, which I would like to improve on.

It was a HEPA filtration system that was quoted at £1k. I've looked this up and I'm not convinced this is really necessary for AA, given that it doesn't produce any dust, smoke or fumes?

[Tim Bateson]

...I'm not convinced this is really necessary for AA, given that it doesn't produce any dust, smoke or fumes?

Actually it does. Might be minimal, but without my blower on, I can smell smoke/fumes when lasering Anodized Aluminum.

[Andrew Campling]

Hi, Have you considered the Ray as you Go, rent to buy option from Trotec? This gets you started with a Rayjet for £4 to £5k depost (dependant upon exhaust system), and you but laser hours much like time for a mobile phone. In a nutshell if you purchase 800 hours within five years we unlock the laser and transfer title to you. There's another plus point too, if you laser business takes off as i'm sure you'd like it too you can part exchange the Rayjet for a larger/faster Speedy model, do this within the first twelve months and we'll give you all of your deposit back in part exchange against the new laser (we will take the Rayjet back of course). Trade in is ultimatly determined by the condition and age of the Rayjet, so you could even p/x it two or three years doen the line. Give me a call at Trotec Lser South East and i can take you through the options. Andrew.

[Dan Kozakewycz]

Hi Andrew, I've already been in touch with Micaela regarding Ray as you go, I am very interested!

[Dan Hintz]

Andrew,

It would be helpful if you identified yourself as being associated with Trotec in your signature... we wouldn't want any questions to come up later.