Dowels, Biscuits or Dominos?

[Jeff Erbele]

In preparing my shopping list to equip and set up shop I am considering joining methods and systems.

My concerns are buying multiple systems that basically do the same thing; later learning I gravitate to one and never use the others, or could get by without them.

My budget profile - I don’t mind spending money on quality tools and equipment. Nothing bothers me more than buying cheap junk that disappoints, tossing it and replacing it with a quality item I wish I had bought in the first place.

For exposed joinery on the bottom or back side of projects, a pocket screw system is on my list. Krieg is the only one I am aware.

For hidden joinery I am considering doweling, splines, biscuits (basically a spline system), and dominos. Did I overlook anything?

Which do you use and why?
Considering the attributes of each, strength, adaptability to a variety of projects & applications, speed, ease of use, accuracy (location and fit), capital costs (the initial system) and cost of the consumables.

Have you purchased one system and abandoned it for another?

Dominos are enticing, perhaps the strongest but cost the most up front and per each one. Further they perhaps are not the solution for lighter, thinner projects like a picture frame where an inexpensive spline would be a better choice. My project list includes a wide variety, cabinets, counter tops, furniture, tables, book cases, and smaller things like picture frames and jewelry boxes.

I struggle the most with biscuits vs dominos. Do I need both systems?
If I need splines I can saw those and the slot they go in. If I need to dowels, I can drill vertical, horizontal or angled holes easily on my Shopsmith.

[Mikail Khan]

I have a Kreg kit, biscuit joiner and a domino. After getting the domino I no longer use the biscuit joiner. I rarely use the Kreg because I don't want screws exposed even on the back or underside of most projects.

MK

[Loren Woirhaye]

Many discussions of modern joinery methods fixate on which one is "strongest". I'll suggest they are all strong enough for most work if used intelligently.

I have doweling equipment and use it for right angle joinery. While it's not an issue for a hobby user, a tool that has you using your muscle to push the cutter into the work gets fatiguing. Drilling holes with a drill jig is not very tiresome but I've found handling a biscuit joiner to be and I assume the domino requires some repetitive motion as well. The things I like the most about dowels is the dead-on alignment, cheapness of dowels and that the drill is not that tiresome to use. I acquired a Ritter single spindle dowel drill which has a pneumatic double action which clamps the work to the table, then plunges the running bit into the work. The speed and precision is very nice. Lots of cabinet shops used to use them and have now gone over to pocket screws. The Domino is the tool of the moment and it is without doubt a neat machine and fun to use. An interesting aspect of doweling is that clamping is straightforward and often not needed. I expect with Dominos there is more fussing with clamps, as with biscuits, due to minor fluctuations in part alignment.

I use biscuits occasionally for angled joinery because the tilting fence allows me to index the cut on the narrow face of a part that may not be otherwise square. I've been making chairs and using biscuits because of this feature of the tool. I have a dowel joiner too which has a similar fence and can do the same sort of thing but the biscuits are a little more forgiving. The dowel joiner is not something most people would go after because they are not cheap and the domino is around now, but it is precise and I use it mostly for drilling shelf pin holes on 32mm centers.

[Max Neu]

I use pocket screws,domino's and very rarely biscuits,no dowels.I build custom cabinets,so I mostly use pocket screws,from a Ritter machine.I could live without the Domino's,but it is nice having it.If you don't do a ton of pocket screws,I would just get a hand held Kreg jig,and then get a Domino cutter.Domino's are alot more versatile than biscuits,you can go from a tiny little 4mm up to a large 10mm (with the DF500).If you are worried about the price of Domino's,they are easy to make,but I don't find it worth the time though.

[Prashun Patel]

IMHO, your biggest bang for the buck will be the Jessem dowel jig.
Domino and Biscuit joiners are nice because their fence can be angled. However, in practice, 95% of the joinery I do is 90 degrees.

The Domino has other subtle versatility too, but for many, that benefit is marginal.

I agree with the assertion that for most practical applications, dowels are a reasonable choice. I think they are preferable to pocket screws in all visible applications.

If you are planning to make a lot of cabinets with faceframes, it's quite hard to beat the speed that pocket screws afford, so if that's what you'll be doing, get one of those. If you go the Kreg route, I prefer the mini version that can be taken to the piece; I have one of the bigger sets that gets bolted to a bench, but it's a pain to use on bigger sheets, so I end up taking it off and to the piece anyway.

[Bill Huber]

I am a hobby woodworker and don't make a lot of furniture or cabinets. The furniture I do make I have used dowels on and it has worked very well for me. I have made some cabinets and again I used dowels. I have the Jessem doweling jig and it is very accurate and easy to use.

There have been many test about dowels and M/T, which one is stronger, I can't answer that but for everything that I have made with dowels it is still holding and still looks good.

I have a biscuit jointer but I just never use it, I guess I should just sell it. I just found that it was not that good for my needs. When making panels the dowels are great, and will line the boards up spot on, the biscuits just don't do that for me.

I think the Domino is a really nice tool but for hobby use I just can't see the money in it. I looked at it and then got a new band saw for the same money. If I was doing production work I think the Domino would pay for itself very fast.

Cutting M/T is just something I have not done, they are hidden so for all the work I just use dowels and no one knows the difference. I have made some loose tenons and made the mortise with a router and that worked but again it took a lot longer and I really did not see the difference in them and dowels.

So I guess the bottom line for me is dowels are strong, accurate and very fast to install with a good jig.

Good Luck.

[Keith Hankins]

Well, I've used owned all you mention. And I'll ad one you could consider slot mortising. I've owned doweling jigs, biscuit jointers, slot mortising, and the domino. I started with dowels and a jig. Bought a PC biscuit jointer, did a good bit of slot mortising with both the router and a horizontal boring machine with a router bit. I only in the last couple of year purchased an actual powermatic 719T big M&T machine(sold the domino to help pay for that). Of all of them, I would say the domino would have the best strength, but if the joint is designed right that's splittin hairs IMO. Domino is good used it for a good bit but its really expensive. On the positive side, I sold it for just about what I paid for it. For M&T now that I have it the Mortising machine is the best, but starting out, that could be really expensive. I did use the other methods mentioned for joining panels as well. Now though I've found thats just not necessary. With modern glues, and some practice, IMO it just adds unnecessary time and steps. I get them close on glue up and finish with a planer (depending on width) or hand plane and scraper now in a jiffy. I don't use the kreg because I don't do cabinet face frames but the could be a time saver I guess. If it were me, and starting up and needing a lot of tools, I'd skip all of what you listed. Get a good router and do slot mortising. Then you have a good router and dual capability. Of course that's just my opinion. That and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee. Take care.

[Matt Meiser]

I bought a biscuit joiner because Norm said I should and I did use it a fair bit but over the years I owned it it evolved into more of an alignment aid than a joiner. I also had a mortiser and a tenon jig for my table saw.

When the Dowelmax came out I ordered one. It was nicely made but a pretty messy and its not infinitely adjustable. I returned it after a couple weeks and bought a Domino.

The Domino, I love and it truly has changed the way I work. Not too long after getting the Domino I built a dresser for my daughter and used nothing but Domino joinery. Even the drawers joined with Dominoes. Sometimes I use Dominoes for actual loose tenon joints, other times I use them for alignment aids, for example, instead of cutting rabbets and dado's in cabinet boxes I've gone to using Dominoes at each corner. I don't bother gluing them, but they make it easy to hold the box in shape while I screw it together. To the original Domino I added Tool Improvements' aluminum spacers, Seneca's Dominplate and recently the RTS Engineering self-centering jig. Since buying the Domino I sold the mortiser and tenon jig. A couple rare times I have done larger M&T joints and just used forstner bits and chisels to make mortises and cut the shoulders for the tenons on my TS and the cheeks on my BS then fit them using a plane. Dominos have even replaced a few places I used to use pocket screws, including faceframes which I can make quicker and more accurately with Dominoes. And Dominoes make a better 45 degree joint than Kreg's recommended method for pocket hole screws.

Should anyone question the strength of Dominoes, I'll submit this....Shortly after I got it 6 years ago my daughter wanted to make something out of some scraps she gathered in my shop. She wanted me to attach 4 12" or so long 1x2's between 2 pieces of 3/4" ply that are maybe 10x20". I put one 5mm domino in each end of the 1x2's and into the ply top and bottom so it looks kind of like a table with a at each end of the legs. 6 years later she still has this thing and has used it as a chair, a stepstool and who knows what else. Its still just as it was the day I made it.

[Mike Henderson]

I like Mortise and Tenon because it's a good strong joint. So the Domino or slot mortiser is my choice. Biscuits and dowels may be good for alignment but are definitely not as strong as M&T.

Mike

[John TenEyck]

You might consider my shop built horizontal router mortiser. https://sites.google.com/site/jteneyckwoodworker/current-projects/horizontal-router-mortiser You will not find a machine that is as accurate, fast, versatile, or easy to use for about $50 and 8 hours of your time.

John

[Matt Meiser]

One thing to note though...not as strong and not strong enough are second cousins. I also made a set of end tables and a very large coffee/play table (top is 3x4) for our family room. My daughter drags or shoves the coffee table out of the way all the time. ALL the joinery on those things is pocket hole screws. That might be one of the first projects I did when we moved here 10 years ago since we had no furniture for that room. Also still as good as the day I made it other than quite a few dents and a few marker and/or crayon marks here and there.

[Phil Thien]

I vote for all three.

I have the Jessem doweling jig and it works great, fantastic registration and grate for (for example) attaching table aprons to legs.

I also have a biscuit jointer and it is terrific for cabinet boxes (think plywood kitchen cabinets). Fast, strong, and biscuits are inexpensive.

I would like a Domino, but will have to wait for a while yet. I think the Domino would be handy for a lot of finer furniture work, but is expensive and for the time being I use my shop-made mortising jig or another method. When does that Domino patent expire? LOL.

Oh, and I also use pocket screws and after I finally got the hang of assembling stuff (you just have to clamp the snot out of pieces so nothing can shift when driving the screws in), I upgraded my pocket hole jig to the newest K5 (the one that returns front-clamping).

[Mike Henderson]

I have the Jessem doweling jig and it works great, fantastic registration and great for (for example) attaching table aprons to legs.

Two joints that take great stress are the joint between the side rail of a chair and the back, and between the apron and leg of a table. The chair joint gets a lot of stress when people tip back on the chair, and the leg to apron joint gets a lot of stress when people move a table my sliding it along the floor.

It would be wise to choose the strongest joinery for each of those joints to achieve the longest life for the project. And the strongest joinery for both of those is mortise and tenon.

Mike

[Prashun Patel]

Wait a second, Phil!!!! Wasn't it you who hot-rodded the Rockler dowel jig? Now I hear that you're cheating on the side with the Jessem? I'm shocked!

[Mike Goetzke]

I bought a Domino joiner just about when they first came out (anyone remember Bing cash back). They may have corrected it by now but mine got sent back because the fence didn't lock down initially. I'm a serious woodworking hobbyist and found I use pocket screws way more often than a small tenon. I ended up selling the Domino for what I paid for it and haven't missed it a bit. I did pick up a new Type 3 P-C joiner (just in case) for less than $100 and it sits most of the time too.


Mike

[Phil Thien]

Wait a second, Phil!!!! Wasn't it you who hot-rodded the Rockler dowel jig? Now I hear that you're cheating on the side with the Jessem? I'm shocked!

Yeah but, I really like the Jessem!!!

[Mark Carlson]

Jeff, I have all 3 and use the domino. The other two are gathering dust somewhere in my shop. I build mostly furniture, and dont use biscuits or dowels. Others seem to though.

~mark

[Mark Blatter]

I have used pocket screws, dowels and biscuits. I don't do pocket screws any more as I had to sell my pocket drill whatcamacallit. If I still had it, I would still be using it. My biscuit joiner walked out the door with a moving company a few years ago and I haven't missed it. I did use it a great deal for certain types of joints, namely joining sheet goods such as slat wall (basically mdf) and particle board when I needed the piece to be taller than 48" (slat wall).

Most what I use today is the Jessem doweling jig. I read Bill's review of it a couple of years back and bought one. It is easy to use and does a nice job. I don't think you can beat the quality or the price for it.

[Kelby Van Patten]

I have a Multi-Router, which handles 95% of my joinery. I've owned and used just about every system on the market, and none are as versatile, precise, and simple as the Multi-Router.

In terms of versatility, it makes mortise/tenons or loose tenon joints of any size with ease. You can also purchase templates that allow dovetails, box joints, and a variety of other joinery, but I don't use any of them. For dovetails, I prefer to cut them by hand or use a Leigh because I don't like the look of equally spaced dovetails.

In terms of precision, no other system comes close. You set it up once, and then every cut will be exactly the same. You can use a feeler gauge to adjust the stops and make adjustments that are precise within .002" - .003".

In terms of simplicity, it is extremely simple to learn to use, to set up, and to adjust. And once you have set it up to make a particular joint, you can run hundreds of boards through it and every one will be perfect.

Again, I've used just just about every system on the market (and owned most of them), and the Multi-Router is what every other system wishes it could be.

Feel free to take a look at my blog, which details my construction of a Gamble-House style bed I am currently building. It's a dumbed-down blog that is written for my non-woodworking friends, so some of it may make your eyes gloss over. But there are several parts that show using the Multi-Router to make some joints that otherwise would have been challenging. http://kelbyswoodworking.blogspot.com/

The cost of the Multi-Router is the only reason to hesitate. It is expensive. But you definitely get what you pay for. As for cost of consumables, they are zero. I make my own loose tenons, or I use the Multi-Router to cut real tenons. But the initial investment is high enough that, if cost is an issue, go for a different system.

If I couldn't use the Multi-Router, I think the Domino is the next most versatile system on the market. It is nice. But it's not in the same league as the Multi-Router.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[John TenEyck]

I have a Multi-Router, which handles 95% of my joinery. I've owned and used just about every system on the market, and none are as versatile, precise, and simple as the Multi-Router.

In terms of versatility, it makes mortise/tenons or loose tenon joints of any size with ease. You can also purchase templates that allow dovetails, box joints, and a variety of other joinery, but I don't use any of them. For dovetails, I prefer to cut them by hand or use a Leigh because I don't like the look of equally spaced dovetails.

In terms of precision, no other system comes close. You set it up once, and then every cut will be exactly the same. You can use a feeler gauge to adjust the stops and make adjustments that are precise within .002" - .003".

In terms of simplicity, it is extremely simple to learn to use, to set up, and to adjust. And once you have set it up to make a particular joint, you can run hundreds of boards through it and every one will be perfect.

Again, I've used just just about every system on the market (and owned most of them), and the Multi-Router is what every other system wishes it could be.

Feel free to take a look at my blog, which details my construction of a Gamble-House style bed I am currently building. It's a dumbed-down blog that is written for my non-woodworking friends, so some of it may make your eyes gloss over. But there are several parts that show using the Multi-Router to make some joints that otherwise would have been challenging. http://kelbyswoodworking.blogspot.com/

The cost of the Multi-Router is the only reason to hesitate. It is expensive. But you definitely get what you pay for. As for cost of consumables, they are zero. I make my own loose tenons, or I use the Multi-Router to cut real tenons. But the initial investment is high enough that, if cost is an issue, go for a different system.

If I couldn't use the Multi-Router, I think the Domino is the next most versatile system on the market. It is nice. But it's not in the same league as the Multi-Router.

Good luck whatever you decide.

You are correct that the JDS Multi Router is a fantastic machine. But you are wrong that nothing else comes close in terms of precision. The price of the Multi Router is what drove me to design and build my shop built router mortiser to do what the Multi Router can do in 2 axes. It is not fancy, but its simplicity is what makes it so accurate, and repeatable part after part. If I were a pro, I'd buy a Multi Router in a heartbeat, probably a Domino, too. But I'm not. Happily, my router mortiser meets my needs with no compromises.

John

[Kelby Van Patten]

John, I would agree that you can build a home-brew version of the multi-router that would be just as precise as the JDS multi-router. The JDS is exceptionally well made -- cast iron throughout -- but they don't have a patent on "well-made." I do believe that all of the other options mentioned (Domino, biscuits, dowels, etc.) have limitations that render them incapable of achieving the tolerances that you can achieve on a Multi-Router or a home-brew equivalent. The Domino gets as close as I think you can get with a hand-held tool, but a hand-held tool can't achieve the tolerances that you can achieve with an x/y/z router.

Do you have some photos of your home-made mortiser? It sounds like a nice machine.

[Kelby Van Patten]

Whoops, John, I just saw your previous link to your gallery. Nice work!

Adding a z-axis opens a whole world of possibilities, but that's another project for another day.

[John TenEyck]

Whoops, John, I just saw your previous link to your gallery. Nice work!

Adding a z-axis opens a whole world of possibilities, but that's another project for another day.

Kelby, I have thought about a 3 axis, but it's not something that would benefit me greatly, or at least I don't think it would. I mostly cut single width mortises - 1/4", 1/2", etc., for use with loose tenons. It also will cut integral tenons (granted, not as fast as the Multi Router), but I rarely use them. What is it that the 3rd axis allows? Thanks.

John

[Kelby Van Patten]

John, I don't know whether it would benefit you greatly, but it has helped me a lot. The z axis makes integral tenons a breeze. That's particularly valuable because with larger loose tenons, a 1-1/2" mortise going into end grain will always be 10 -15 thousandths narrower than the mortise going perpendicular to the grain because the bit grabs the grain differently, so it's a hassle to get loose tenons to fit perfectly in both slots. The integral tenon solves that problem because the z-axis on the multi-router can easily cut the tenon perfectly fit the mortise. Also, with the z-axis, centering the mortise becomes a snap. Also, there are times when a mortise needs to be wider than the standard bits. Take a look at my blog (link posted above), under the part where I'm cutting mortises into the top rail of the bed. Those mortises are 1.25" wide and 1.375" long, and the z-axis made cutting those mortises a walk in the park.

One other thing I love about the JDS is the pneumatic clamps (which are an add-on accessory). They make the entire process go extremely smooth.

The setup is expensive. It's worth it to me, but it wouldn't be worth it to everyone. I'm not a pro. But I do spend 15-20 hours per week in my shop, 52 weeks per year, for nearly 20 years now. When I spend that much time doing something, whether I"m a pro or not, it's easy for me to justify investments that change the way I work, and the Multi-Router is definitely in that category. From a functionality standpoint, it's in the same class as my jointer, planer, bandsaw, and tablesaw, although it was cheaper than any of those tools.

I'm not here to sell anyone a multi-router. I have no stake in the company. But it's one of those tools that I wish I had bought much sooner. If someone is ambitious, an home-made version like John's can certainly do the job as well.

[Thomas S Stockton]

I actually just sold my multirouter something I thought I would never do. The domino is just really convenient and I believe I had only used it once or twice since getting a Domino when they first came out. I still use a biscuit jointer for certain things, the ability to cut a groove with it and slide a part in is really nice.
Never really use dowels, but if you want one tool that will do the most you really can't go wrong with a domino.
Tom

[Jeff Erbele]

I use pocket screws,domino's and very rarely biscuits,no dowels.I build custom cabinets,so I mostly use pocket screws,from a Ritter machine.I could live without the Domino's,but it is nice having it.If you don't do a ton of pocket screws,I would just get a hand held Kreg jig,and then get a Domino cutter.Domino's are alot more versatile than biscuits,you can go from a tiny little 4mm up to a large 10mm (with the DF500).If you are worried about the price of Domino's,they are easy to make,but I don't find it worth the time though.

I just starting reading the responses and yours in near the top in sequence. I never gave any thought to making my own Domino's. I always assumed I must buy them, but this is a "dooh moment" for me.

Somebody makes them, why can't I...
Well I can saw strips and round corners, and cross cut those strips fairly rapidly in mass production.

As I stated in my OP, I do not mind investing in quality equipment upfront. My concern with domino's was the consumables, per each use. Like the early razors with propitiatory razor blades thing, or free electricity but you must buy our light bulbs (Freelan Oscar Stanley, Estes Park CO).

[Thomas S Stockton]

I did a cost analysis once when making my own tenons and found that the pre made ones where more cost effective.
Tom

[Loren Woirhaye]

For M&T look into:

- Robland slot mortising table
- Wirth Machine
- Matchmaker
- Multirouter
- Woodrat/Router Boss
- Leigh FMT
- Pantorouter (shop built tool)

I have a Wirth machine and a Woodrat. Both do tenons and end mortises well while awkward to set up for edge mortises. Dowels are still faster but they don't work as through tenons (usually and aesthetic thing considering how good modern glues are) and are not suitable for fine chair seat frames. For fine chair seat frames loose tenons of any sort won't do either, imo. Admittedly this is beyond the scope of what most hobby woodworkers attempt.

[Don Huffer]

Hello guys.
I'm new here but going to jump right in.

Domino and biscuit jointers are not really in the same class. The domino cost is up there with some full sized machines like the table saw and band saw. Biscuit jointers are not as strong but cut and install very fast. I prefer M and T or loose tenons like these.

280313

There are about a hundred different ways to cut the slot and the tenon is made with a router.

280314

Some are through some are wedged. they cut quite quickly and have a great amount of strength.



280315

If you look close you can see the wedges.

Don

[Jeff Erbele]

I arrived at the bottom of Page 1 of the responses thus far. Thank you for sharing all of your experiences and observations. Each is helpful and insightful.

I have never owned or used any of the specialty machines, jigs or joinery aids under discussion all of which I am considering.

I have doweled and splined with basic wood shop machinery and hand tools, table saw, drill press / boring mill (esp. Shopsmith - its' best feature), combination square and pencil.

I know I want and will use a pocket screw jig for certain applications; if nothing else just because it is fast, easy, cool and I have one to use or demonstrate in case anybody asks, "how do they do that?", .

Ultimately, I can understand every reason to own each one and probably will end up having all of them except maybe a doweling jig, because I have doweled without one without problems. The main feature I see in one is time savings, but uncertain as I never had one.

Keep the your responses coming. They are invaluable to me and I suspect many others.

[Terry Therneau]

I'm another who built my own slot mortiser, with ideas borrowed from a dozen other's photos. It is without a doubt the fastest and most repeatable system I've used: set the stops and do a dozen joints. I need to put a photo shoot of it up one day.
I also have a DowelMax (the Jessem appears to be as good and cheaper besides, but it wasn't available yet.) The dowel max is great for alignment of wide glue ups but I had some unhappy experiences with cabinet work when using longer dowels. When clamped to a board there is just a bit of rotational variation, so the dowels coming out two faces of a leg were not at exactly 90 degrees. Really close, maybe 89.9, but enough that the last inch of pulliing the carcass together was a real challenge. Moral: no 2" dowels.

Terry T.

[Jeff Erbele]

IMHO, your biggest bang for the buck will be the Jessem dowel jig.
Domino and Biscuit joiners are nice because their fence can be angled. However, in practice, 95% of the joinery I do is 90 degrees.

The Domino has other subtle versatility too, but for many, that benefit is marginal.

I agree with the assertion that for most practical applications, dowels are a reasonable choice. I think they are preferable to pocket screws in all visible applications.

If you are planning to make a lot of cabinets with faceframes, it's quite hard to beat the speed that pocket screws afford, so if that's what you'll be doing, get one of those. If you go the Kreg route, I prefer the mini version that can be taken to the piece; I have one of the bigger sets that gets bolted to a bench, but it's a pain to use on bigger sheets, so I end up taking it off and to the piece anyway.

In reads to your third paragraph; about visibility:
I agree with the assertion that for most practical applications, dowels are a reasonable choice. I think they are preferable to pocket screws in all visible applications. < end quote; underline added for reference >

My response is regard to visibility.

My first criteria in selecting a joinery method is visible vs invisible. Going a step further, the objective of hiding or acentuating the method.

In our craft, joining wood is a given. How one does it, is the variable.

Two things nearly all people do not see in our craft is the planning and care we put into it and the hidden but really neat & cool joints that hold it together.

Most non-craftspersons never think about it. Those that do perhaps assume, "boards glued together"
Certainly glue has holds things together with some bonding strength, but joinery provides the structural strength.

I think of dowels as hidden, although they could be exposed.
I think of pocket screws as visible, although they could be hidden.

[Mikhail Lermontov]

In case somebody on the hunt for a Jessem Master kit I found a site where they sell it for $180 plus $11 shipping.
http://www.danzwood.com//42-joinery-systems?sid=13b99e585dee66c572ecd9642068dbe5

[Jeff Erbele]

I'm another who built my own slot mortiser, with ideas borrowed from a dozen other's photos. It is without a doubt the fastest and most repeatable system I've used: set the stops and do a dozen joints. I need to put a photo shoot of it up one day.
I also have a DowelMax (the Jessem appears to be as good and cheaper besides, but it wasn't available yet.) The dowel max is great for alignment of wide glue ups but I had some unhappy experiences with cabinet work when using longer dowels. When clamped to a board there is just a bit of rotational variation, so the dowels coming out two faces of a leg were not at exactly 90 degrees. Really close, maybe 89.9, but enough that the last inch of pulliing the carcass together was a real challenge. Moral: no 2" dowels.

Terry T.

I am not familiar with a slot mortiser, but Googled it. I have not studied, know & understand what it is or does or does well.

The name slot mortiser implies mortise and tenon. Until I learn more; would a slot mortiser suffice and replace dowels, biscuits or dominos? Or is a solution for table legs, while I am building a laminated table top?

Truly I am ignorant of the term, device, concept and best application of a slot mortiser. Educate me please.

[Rick Potter]

Jeff,

I just noticed you had no experience with slot mortisers, and that you have a ShopSmith. Recently I read a post where someone made a home made slot mortise that works with his SS. It may have been here, but I don't think so. It was very simple, and pointed out that you already have a machine that can feed the bit forward and back, the table can be adjusted for height, and all you need is a setup with slots to go sideways without slop.

Certainly not a professional setup, but I bet you could try it out for next to nothing.

Rick Potter

EDIT: I found it. bing ......horizontal mortising sled..........it's on Lumberjocks site. Looks pretty easy to try out.

EDIT 2: Did you know SS makes (made?) a biscuit joiner attachment for your machine? I used to have one and it worked nicely. Like having a floor model biscuit joiner.

[glenn bradley]

Wow, this one got much more conversation that I would have expected. Dominos or floating tenons for strength, dowels are OK too but I rarely use them, biscuits for alignment; minimal strength added.

[Loren Woirhaye]

A slot mortiser with some attentive modification can be used for doweling. At router speeds the end mills tend to make the holes a bit uneven size. A slot mortiser running slower, like the Shopsmith, can take drills instead of end mills. I would never chuck a drill into a router, but in a slot mortiser running at 5000 rpm or less I think it's ok. I have never tried it, but James Krenov described freehand mortising using a simple chucked drill and a table. He implied in the book it wasn't especially safe in theory but in practice at the low RPMs he'd never had an accident. The X-Y tables we're using these days work very well and you can make one from drawer slides that clamp to the Shopsmith table. An added virtue of the SS is the table tilts.

One annoyance of loose tenon joinery is the end mills make a slightly wider slot in end grain. It's enough variance that the tolerances can be pretty tight for the tenon stock to fit snugly in both your end grain and long grain mortised parts. A lot of planers won't give you the kind of consistency to get the tenon stock right where you want it off the planer. A drum thicknesser can work, but what I do is get the stock perhaps 5/1000s over the final thickness, cut off tenons as I need them, and fit them with hand planes and/or a sanding board. Humidity as well can make the mortises and tenon stock change size a little, but enough to throw things off. Best practice seems to be cut all the mortises the same day so the mortises change width in synch. The Domino tenons have embossed sides and I think this helps them swell like biscuits and also squeeze into slightly-tight mortises. I did read somewhere that some artisans found hardwood loose tenons outperformed Dominos due to superior glue adhesion.

... but again, if dowels are strong enough for most work if done right, so are biscuits and Dominos. In chair joints be aware that dowels can change size a bit over time and they wiggle out. Of course we've all encountered bad cheap furniture where the dowels don't hold, but that's often because the doweling was done badly or the racking forces on the part made dowels a poor choice.

[Phil Thien]

Whenever the discussion of biscuits arises, people are pretty quick to mention that they don't offer much in strength.

Two weekends ago I replaced a cabinet in the bath with one that wasn't quite so deep. The initial unit I built was nearly a full 24" deep, my wife thought it would be nice for storage of towels, etc. But the truth is, everything just kinda got shoved to the back and it was hard to find things, it was like a cave. So I built a new one that is only a about 14" deep.

I decided to reclaim the plywood from the old cabinet, which was assembled in the corners with biscuits. I used a 2.5 pound hammer and those biscuit joints did not want to come apart without a fight. The plywood surrounding the biscuits completely delaminated.

Of course, I wouldn't build dining room chairs with biscuits. But for their intended purpose (cabinet boxes), biscuits are pretty hard to beat.

[Prashun Patel]

More food for thought:

Dowel jigs (Jessem/Dowelmax) are more versatile than you might think. The DM at least comes with long indexing pins that allow you to put evenly spaced holes along a panel edge. The glue ups I did with my Dowelmax had flatter seams out of the clamps than the ones I now do with my Domino. The reason is that the Domino relies on your palm to hold it flat and in place. This makes it fast and convenient, but prone to a tad bit of slop. The DM and Jessem, however, rely on a mechanical clamp to hold it in place. That makes it dead-accurate but slows you down a tad.

For panel glue ups, the Domino has another feature that makes it faster than the dowel jigs: Domino allows you to control side-side slop with a switch. So, you can just eyeball the mating mortise centers, and make the mortises oversized in width. This does not compromise strength, but allows you to put multiple mortises along a long edge without worrying that they line up. The dowel jigs require an indexing pin. This slows down things. The dowel jigs rely on 100% accuracy, and the good ones deliver on that. It's this Domino slop that also allows you to do things like making breadboard ends for tables.

The genius (IMHO) of the Domino system is that they've figured out how to make it ultra-fast and convenient at the inconsequential (in ALMOST all cases) loss of complete accuracy.

[Don Huffer]

Whenever the discussion of biscuits arises, people are pretty quick to mention that they don't offer much in strength.

Two weekends ago I replaced a cabinet in the bath with one that wasn't quite so deep. The initial unit I built was nearly a full 24" deep, my wife thought it would be nice for storage of towels, etc. But the truth is, everything just kinda got shoved to the back and it was hard to find things, it was like a cave. So I built a new one that is only a about 14" deep.

I decided to reclaim the plywood from the old cabinet, which was assembled in the corners with biscuits. I used a 2.5 pound hammer and those biscuit joints did not want to come apart without a fight. The plywood surrounding the biscuits completely delaminated.

Of course, I wouldn't build dining room chairs with biscuits. But for their intended purpose (cabinet boxes), biscuits are pretty hard to beat.

Fine woodworking built a dining chair with biscuits. They add a good deal of strength.

Don

[Don Huffer]

Wow, this one got much more conversation that I would have expected. Dominos or floating tenons for strength, dowels are OK too but I rarely use them, biscuits for alignment; minimal strength added.

I never could understand how a biscuit adds in alignment. The slot cut is quite a bit wider than the biscuit. Which is their claim to fame. Which aids in glue up and allows movement if needed. Cuts don't have to be perfect to work well.
???

Don

[Mike Henderson]

Of course we've all encountered bad cheap furniture where the dowels don't hold, but that's often because the doweling was done badly or the racking forces on the part made dowels a poor choice.
The problem with dowels in high stress joinery is that they have much less long-grain-to-long grain surface area as mortise and tenon. Commercial chairs often only put two dowels to attach the side rail to the chair back so the joint often fails. And the failure mode is not fracture, or glue failure. The wood actually fails. When you take a chair apart with a failed dowel joint, you find wood still attached to the dowel - so you see the dowel, a layer of glue, and a thin layer of wood on the dowel. The dowel has actually pulled out of the hole, pulling some of the wood with it.

Mike



[ATTACH]280367

[HANK METZ]

I never could understand how a biscuit adds in alignment. The slot cut is quite a bit wider than the biscuit. Which is their claim to fame. Which aids in glue up and allows movement if needed. Cuts don't have to be perfect to work well.
???

Don

That's by design Don, it allows lateral adjustment up to 1/8" during assembly, the precision comes when two adjacent faces meet, usually less than 1/64" difference, most times none.

[Alan Bienlein]

For me I use my home built pantorouter.
280372

I can make anywhere from a 1-1/2" wide mortise and tenon up to a 4" mortise and tenon with the interchangeable templates I made for it.
280373280374280375

I also have a horizontal slot mortiser I built that does loose tenon joinery and variable width box joints.
280376280378280377

I also built a domino from plans off the internet just to see if I could do it. It just sits up in the cabinet and hasn't been used since the test joints I made with it.
280371

I personally would look at what you are wanting to build and let that decide what you need to make the joinery for the project. I grew up using dowels done with a piece of face frame stock that had two 3/8" holes drilled in it attached to a piece of 1/4" ply that was used to clamp it to what ever we were joining with dowels. The coffee table my father made 40 some years ago was joined together with dowels and is now in my home holding up just fine.

I also use biscuits depending on what the project needs. As for panel glue ups all you need is a good tight joint and clamp it. anything else added is just a waste of time and materials.

[Michael Dunn]

I'm an avid meth... I mean Festool addict. I vote for the domino. I have the DF-500 and it has saved me TONS of time. That time saved easily offset the hefty $900 price tag. I've used it to make coffee tables, dining tables, benches, media cabinets, mantles, shop storage, and floating shelves.

My tools are my main source of income so time is a huge priority. I've yet to use a doweling jig so I can't knock it. However, I have used a biscuit joiner. The Domino really shouldn't even be compared to the biscuit joiner. Similar purposes, but the Domino is leaps and bounds stronger and offers much better alignment.

[Keith Hankins]

I'm an avid meth... I mean Festool addict. I vote for the domino. I have the DF-500 and it has saved me TONS of time. That time saved easily offset the hefty $900 price tag. I've used it to make coffee tables, dining tables, benches, media cabinets, mantles, shop storage, and floating shelves.

My tools are my main source of income so time is a huge priority. I've yet to use a doweling jig so I can't knock it. However, I have used a biscuit joiner. The Domino really shouldn't even be compared to the biscuit joiner. Similar purposes, but the Domino is leaps and bounds stronger and offers much better alignment.

I had the domino and I agree there is no comparison between the biscuit and domino. I think a better comparison is the domino and floating tenon. I also think that if you need to take your tools with you to where you work its great. However, since I've moved to a true M&T with a large mortiser from the domino, the time and complexity of glue up is easier IMO. And to be clear, I had the domino from the get go and loved it. When comparing apples to apples a large M&T machine is more convenient in time from my experiences. Just to be clear I have a tone of green and love the festool.

[Phil Thien]

I had the domino and I agree there is no comparison between the biscuit and domino. I think a better comparison is the domino and floating tenon. I also think that if you need to take your tools with you to where you work its great. However, since I've moved to a true M&T with a large mortiser from the domino, the time and complexity of glue up is easier IMO. And to be clear, I had the domino from the get go and loved it. When comparing apples to apples a large M&T machine is more convenient in time from my experiences. Just to be clear I have a tone of green and love the festool.

But mortising machines aren't typically used with floating tenons, right? So you typically have to using your mortising machine to cut your mortises, and then use another method to cut tenons?

I suppose you could use a mortising machine to cut a mortise in the end grain. But this might be a challenge in (for example) a bed rail (or anything long).

[Alan Lightstone]

I have most of these.

I use the Domino the most. Especially for lining up panel glue-ups.

For shop furniture, I'll often just grab the Kreg, because it's so fast.

Rarely use dowels. Never trusted their strengths.

For fine furniture where strength is key, I use the Leigh FMT Pro Frame Mortise and Tenon Jig (FMT Pro). VERY pricey(makes the Domino look cheap by comparison), but makes very accurate, amazingly strong mortise and tenon joints.

[Sam Murdoch]

… and you can bring the Domino to your work. That's a very useful feature.

[Alan Bienlein]

But mortising machines aren't typically used with floating tenons, right? So you typically have to using your mortising machine to cut your mortises, and then use another method to cut tenons?

I suppose you could use a mortising machine to cut a mortise in the end grain. But this might be a challenge in (for example) a bed rail (or anything long).

Thats why I mainly use my pantorouter. With one setup it will do the mortise in the stile/leg and the tenon on the rails.

[Peter Quinn]

I have used them all and own many of them presently. What I use and when depends on the application, my mood, moon cycle, what type of beer is in my fridge. Not always tied to pure logic. What fun would that be?

Dowels are often enough reenforcement for most furniture and cabinetry joints, they hold frame and panel doors together well, you can drill accurate dowels cheaply with any number of jigs, or a shop made fixture, or spend a small fortune on machinery should you so choose. I use a self centering jig (the original one) and a dowel bar on a slot mortiser. Biscuits for me end up mostly in plywood, and mostly where I don't want to invest much time or though into layout, set up, dados, etc. I can't exactly finance a Tahitian vacation with the revenue that could be garnered from its sale, so the biscuit joiner stays, and because it stays, it gets used...occasionally. Would I build chairs with it? Not for my house, and not for a friend.

The domino is great, very versatile, portable, limited by its depth, now there is that super jumbo version which goes deeper. The only problem I have with it is cost. Ouch. Is Festool run by a drug company? They seem to operate on the same basis, we figured this thing out, our actual production cost may not be this high, but you want what we got....you're going to pay and its going to hurt. Sure sure...R&D....blah blah blah, gotta make back our money X100....etc. Ouch.:rolleyes: Still, its a tough set of features not to like. Not life saving, but given its popularity you might think so. So I use this at work where time is money and some other guy is paying for the tools.

I bought a slot mortiser a while back, because I have occasions to make big stout "MAN" mortises, not those silly little discrete "domino" tea cookie mortises. :rolleyes: For instance, eaves brackets that are holding up a roof. Your demi lune hall table fails, you loose a vase from you MIL. Your entry roof brackets fail under snow load, you are standing there, you're dead. Ouch. The slot mortiser goes wider, deeper, faster than anything except a Maka. Mine dowels too. Put a sharp drill on a 3HP direct drive motor, drills holes very easily, the doweling bar makes it accurate/repeatable. Not quite as quick as a domino to set up, almost, but not quite. Good on multiples.

And there's always the chisel mortiser........there's always that.


Joinery methods are like opinions. Every body's got one, at least one, what it comes down to for me is there is no best, strongest is irrelevant in most cases, its what you like. And that takes time to determine, and its matched to the work. And it may change over time, so be flexible and open minded.

[Don Huffer]

That's by design Don, it allows lateral adjustment up to 1/8" during assembly, the precision comes when two adjacent faces meet, usually less than 1/64" difference, most times none.

Well Hank I've had my jointer for over 25 years. Porter Cable. There is far more movement than a 64th when the two pieces together. Which brand do you use?

Don

[Don Huffer]

For me I use my home built pantorouter.
<img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=280372"/>

I can make anywhere from a 1-1/2" wide mortise and tenon up to a 4" mortise and tenon with the interchangeable templates I made for it.
<img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=280373"/><img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=280374"/><img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=280375"/>

I also have a horizontal slot mortiser I built that does loose tenon joinery and variable width box joints.
<img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=280376"/><img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=280378"/><img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=280377"/>

I also built a domino from plans off the internet just to see if I could do it. It just sits up in the cabinet and hasn't been used since the test joints I made with it.
<img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=280371"/>

I personally would look at what you are wanting to build and let that decide what you need to make the joinery for the project. I grew up using dowels done with a piece of face frame stock that had two 3/8" holes drilled in it attached to a piece of 1/4" ply that was used to clamp it to what ever we were joining with dowels. The coffee table my father made 40 some years ago was joined together with dowels and is now in my home holding up just fine.

I also use biscuits depending on what the project needs. As for panel glue ups all you need is a good tight joint and clamp it. anything else added is just a waste of time and materials.

Nice pano mano. I agree let the project dictate which method to use. Early on that's how I chose to purchase tools too.

Don

[Don Huffer]

But mortising machines aren't typically used with floating tenons, right? So you typically have to using your mortising machine to cut your mortises, and then use another method to cut tenons?

I suppose you could use a mortising machine to cut a mortise in the end grain. But this might be a challenge in (for example) a bed rail (or anything long).

My mortising machine will cut both but I prefer cutting tenons on other tools like the table saw.

Don

[Jeff Erbele]

I did a cost analysis once when making my own tenons and found that the pre made ones where more cost effective.
Tom

Thomas, did you mean premade dominos are more cost effective?

[Mikhail Lermontov]

… and you can bring the Domino to your work. That's a very useful feature.

Why would you bring any tool to work except for your own project at work?

[Kent A Bathurst]

I'm just stuck on M&T. Hollow chisel mortiser for the mortises. Cut the tenons however seems right at the time and for the particular task:

One-offs - hand saws

Fine furniture - table saw for shoulders and tenon jig for faces on short to medium length rails. Sub dado stack for tenon jig on long parts.

Rougher stuff - outdoor fences, gates, entrances; shop-quality stuff - TS shoulder and BS faces. Cut the faces a bit fat, and a float to strip the saw blade marks in a swipe or two. Definitely the fastest, and very nice when running wide, heavy, rails.

The slot mortisers and the Domino have always intrigued me. If I ever found myself in a production situation, I'm pretty sure I would go something along those lines [but I am allergic to Green Kool-Aid, so unlikely that would happen]. The JDS Multi-Router would have to get some serious consideration.

[Sam Murdoch]

Why would you bring any tool to work except for your own project at work?

:) The point I was attempting to convey is that the Domino is portable and can be brought to the bench or to the job site - to the project - rather than needing to bring the project (and all the parts) to a fixed bench machine.

[Robert Silvers]

Part of the problem with biscuits is that people use junk ones in their testing.

I used calipers and measured the thickness of 30 each of DeWalt and Swiss-made Lamello plate joiner Biscuits. Lamello was 1000 for $46.37 from Amazon, which is 4.6 cents each. DeWalt was $7.98 for 100 from Lowes, which is 8 cents each. I calculated the mean and standard deviation of the thicknesses and the Lamello were more than 3x as uniform. 97.7% of Lamello are predicted to be between 3.69 and 4.00mm. DeWalt are 3.34 to 4.31mm. The goal is to be as close to 4mm without going over. Visually, the Lamello have a glue-gripping pattern on each side. The DeWalt had a more shallow grid on one side.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

If money isn´t a restriction I would go to Kreg pocket jointing system and domino.

Kreg has a great differential as it doesn´t need clamping. It makes difference in some cases, at last for my own construction process, so Kreg is mandatory in my "menu".

Between biscuit and dominos, they are very close in functionality. Usually dominos will offer stronger joints: you will be safe even using it even for chairs and other applications high stress joints, something very difficult to use biscuits. On the other hand, biscuits offers a few special applications besides the obvious, as temporary joints or "auto clamping" using special biscuits, but these applications are not popular.

Anyway I am a hobbyist I couldn´t justify the cost for domino, so I went to biscuits years ago.

Summary: in your shoes I would go for both, Kreg pocket screw system and domino - they complement themselves.

All the best,

[Prashun Patel]

I believe this thread is about 8 years old... I suspect the OP made his decision long back?