Hello

[Geoff Gaudet]

Just posting this to say "Hello," so you'll have some idea who I am.

it's been a while...I got hooked on turning in the 90s, and made/sold a fair bit of work, mostly vessels and pens (I consider pens to be "production" work, even though I turned each one by hand and never a straight barrel). However, we moved about a decade ago, and although the new place has a large detached garage, I just never got around to getting the lathe out of storage. "Life got in the way," as they say.

But recently, through a series of events, I ended up acquiring another lathe. I finally decided enough is enough, and I finished the garage and sectioned off an area for a devoted turning studio. Still working on it--and I gotta get some new stuff, first and foremost some kind of sharpening setup. In the past, I've used a bench grinder, a wet wheel sharpener, and a sanding belt. I was using the belt for the last few years I was turning, and it worked probably best of all for me. Currently considering a unit with both a wheel and a belt; there are some very good belts out there these days, and I'm considering a CBN wheel, and possibly a Wolverine jig. I know how important sharp tools are, and how important it is to be able to sharpen them quickly and easily.

So, any suggestions? For those of you with the Wolverine setup, how important do you feel it is to have an 8" wheel over a 6"? Anyone have any experience with 3M Trizact belts for sharpening tools? Or know which Klingspor product might be the Trizact equivalent? And, how about sources for those belts, or CBN wheels, particularly here in Canada?

Thanks for any info.

[Doug Herzberg]

Welcome to the Creek, Geoff. Someone with a lot more experience will chime in. I have only used an 8" grinder with a Wolverine setup and it's been working for me. I get repeatable results on gouges and don't have to think about it too much. Oneway has some demonstration videos on their website which are worth looking at. Most people think a CBN wheel is worth the money and I agree.

[Dale Gillaspy]

I don't know about belts. Never used one. You will find that a lot of people have the 8" wheel, but there are a lot of people that use the 6" wheel and love it. It comes down to personal preference. The biggest difference in the wheel sizes will be the geometry of the hollow grind it leaves on the bevel of the tool. I have a Wolverine jig and a CBN wheel. Pricey, but after using it, I wouldn't go back. Love it, and it leaves a razor edge on my tools.

[charlie knighton]

welcome, and please keep yalls weather, we got another spurt of it coming down tomorrow i think, i use the wolverine and 8 inch wheels, i have heard good reports about the cbn, but as a hobbisist i get by with what works for me now.....my enlighten city makes me have a business liecene and pay machinery tax, good grief, anyway welcome to the creek.....show us some pictures of your shop and work.....we love pictures

[Roger Chandler]

Geoff........first off, welcome back to the game.......staying on the sidelines never allows you to make a play!!! ;) The wolverine jig and and an 8" wheel is the gold standard in turning. You will find that probably 80% of turners use this system and that most of the tool vendors recommend this setup .........and there is a huge reason for it. That setup allows you to do repeatable, consistent grinds, which gives you predictable results!

A few $$$$ up front, but not a loss at all..........rather an investment that will pay off over and over again in the results you get. If you can swing a CBN wheel...........you will never regret it..........there is simply no better way to do it! I have a Tormek style wet grinder and belt sanders..............none can match the ease and the consistency of the Wolverine and the CBN .........well, once the initial grind is on the tool the Tormek can match it, but it takes a lot more time!

Sounds like your garage setup is going to be a great place to have a turning studio.........post some work when you get it all set up.........this forum is where if there are no pics......it didn't happen! :D Good luck!!!

[George Morris]

Welcome Geoff! What they said!

[Thom Sturgill]

I'll try to address the issue of 6" vs 8" wheels. I'm sure some will take me to task.

When you grind a gouge at say 60 degrees that is measured point to heel. The actual angle of the point is less. the difference is more pronounced with a 6" wheel, less with an 8" and less still with a 10", which is pretty much an industrial standard. The heel of the edge can cause burnish lines which are hard to sand out. For that reason a lot of us grind the heel off. With a 6" wheel there is more heel to grind and thus you remove more tool length each time you sharpen and remove the heel.

For my money CBN wheels are the ONLY way to go if you are buying the newer cryo or powder metal tools. As I understand they form small carbides which matrix wheels can not cut, just knock out. CBN can cut them to properly sharpen the edge. From practical personal experience, when I had a mixture of tools that I sharpened with a matrix wheel I found that the powder metal tools did not get as sharp but held what edge they got longer. So I used the PM tools for roughing and picked up a normal freshly sharpened HSS tool for finish cuts. Now, using a CBN wheel I find that the PM tools actually get sharper as well as holding an edge longer and I do not reach for the Sorbys near as often.

[Geoff Gaudet]

Thanks everyone for the comments so far.


I'll try to address the issue of 6" vs 8" wheels. I'm sure some will take me to task.

When you grind a gouge at say 60 degrees that is measured point to heel. The actual angle of the point is less. the difference is more pronounced with a 6" wheel, less with an 8" and less still with a 10", which is pretty much an industrial standard. The heel of the edge can cause burnish lines which are hard to sand out. For that reason a lot of us grind the heel off. With a 6" wheel there is more heel to grind and thus you remove more tool length each time you sharpen and remove the heel.
Yeah, this is the thing. I never ground off the heel, but the reason for my various experiments in the past was a search for a method that would give flatter grind (indeed, with belts it should be a true flat grind).

About belt grinding...interestingly, when I read the knife-making forums, it seems a lot of those guys are using belts, not wheels. And a belt, even a very good one, is a lot cheaper than a CBN wheel. However, one unit I'm considering has an 8" wheel on one end and a belt on the other...

But back to the wheel. Yeah, I've seen the videos and read the reviews; the Oneway Wolverine setup seems like the way to go (and hey, I'm Canadian, so I like Oneway). How truly flat is the grind on the skew, and how is the grind from the Vari-Grind attachment? Also, strictly for sharpening--how much power am I gonna need in a grinder? I have my 6" for general use, and a good friend is a blacksmith with heavy-duty grinders if I need to hog metal, but for sharpening I figure I don't need much power, as it should only take a light touch.

[Jim Leslie]

Geoff - I like the 8" & use a slow speed grinder. The CBN wheel is the way to go and are much safer. My son just got one that is 1.5" wide and it is a beauty. You can get them from Black Forest Wood in Calgary.

[Geoff Gaudet]

Oh, and pics... well, I have nothing current (I'll post up when I do), but here are some pics from my first go-round (when my studio was a tiny--I mean, like 8' x 12'--bedroom in the basement of an old house...):

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/b/d/2/54398/meatwork-0.jpg?rev=0
Me, about 1998.

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/b/d/2/54398/darkestdreams-0.jpg?rev=0
Willow bowl, about 12" x 4", turned and burned. Late 90s


http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/b/d/2/54398/koabowl98-0.jpg?rev=0
Koa bowl, about 8" x 5". I managed a very consistent 1/8" thickness throughout. Late 90s.


http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/b/d/2/54398/littlebrownbowljpeg-0.jpg?rev=0
Locust wood, natural edge, turned green then microwaved. Ebonized with vinegar & steel wool. About 6" across, 1999.

[Geoff Gaudet]

Oh, and those pics in the last post--that was before "the digital age," so they were all taken on slide film, then later scanned. Hence the graininess and dust...

Here's one that was taken just before I moved. A friend had just gotten a digital camera, and I had to get this piece to a gallery for a show opening, so we set up a bedsheet in the living room and took some quick pics using natural light--buddy was into playing around with lighting effects. I fully intended to take more pics when I got the piece back, but...well, it sold and I never got the chance.

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/b/d/2/54398/scuttlebutt1jpg-0.jpg?rev=0

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/b/d/2/54398/scuttlebutt5jpg-0.jpg?rev=0

Maple burl & black walnut, main body about 10" across, 2004.

[Geoff Gaudet]

Geoff - I like the 8" & use a slow speed grinder. The CBN wheel is the way to go and are much safer. My son just got one that is 1.5" wide and it is a beauty. You can get them from Black Forest Wood in Calgary.
Thanks--not familiar with BFW, but I'll check them out.

I'm located in the mountains of the southern BC interior, so it's hard for me to actually visit the shops--not much local selection. Can't even find a bench grinder to look at locally...

[Geoff Gaudet]

welcome, and please keep yalls weather...show us some pictures of your shop and work.....we love pictures
Garage and shop in the background, typical weather in the foreground...

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/b/d/2/54398/img_0001_1-4.jpg?rev=0

[charlie knighton]

you need to check with Alan Lacer to turn ice

like your two turnings, like your stands also, have not seen any like those, cool

[John Thorson]

I thought Tizact was more of a polishing belt but looked it up on Craft Supplies and found out different.

I used a friend's ProEdge with ceramic belts and it worked great on M2 and harder tool steels. If you use a hand hone on your tools life is easier with a hollow grind off a wheel but if you don't hone that hollow grind is of little to no value. I always grind away the heel. I had invested in the CBN wheels before this little experiment with belts so I have to fight the urge to leave the bench grinder behind. I am a big fan of the Wolverine system and would try to use OneWay's gouge jig on the belt... just day dreaming.

[Geoff Gaudet]

you need to check with Alan Lacer to turn ice

like your two turnings, like your stands also, have not seen any like those, cool
If by "stands" you mean the legs on the burl cap bowl, well, that's exactly what they are--legs! Kinda like the legs on the Martian tripods in "War of the Worlds," although I was kinda thinking "spider" when I made the piece.

Turning ice...hmmm...I actually did that, sorta, with that burl bowl. I wanted to attach it to the lathe without leaving any marks, so the natural burl cap would be continuous. I took a rough-turned bowl and filled it with water, then set the burl cap into the water and used duct tape to hold it in place, then froze the whole thing; I then used the rough bowl stub to chuck the whole thing and turned the face and bowl interior (all in one go, before the ice melted). The legs were spindle turned then cut at an angle and glued back together at 180 degrees, to form the knees and ankles, then glued into holes I'd drilled into the bowl sides (I did this on a workbench...now that I've seen the Oneway "Drill Wizard," I want one!).

As I said, this piece was shown in a regional exhibit. The curator initially placed the piece upside down, resting on it's "knees" which rise above the turned surface. But another gallery worker was looking at it, and wondered why I'd make the bottom of the piece so smooth...she turned it over, set it on it's feet, and suddenly realized that was the way it should be...:) This was the last bowl I turned before I moved, and remains one of my favourites...I wish I had better photos of it!

[Geoff Gaudet]

I am a big fan of the Wolverine system and would try to use OneWay's gouge jig on the belt... just day dreaming.
This is exactly what I'm thinking of trying ;)

[charlie knighton]

i had wondered about that, sort of hard to use the tailstock or hold natural edge bottom without marks, froze it in place, i guess work fast and no catches

thanks, not sure i will try that but it nice to have that idea back there somewhere

[Rob Boesem]

Welcome to the forum, Geoff!

Nice to see another member from BC. :)

[Reed Gray]

Welcome as others have said. For Canadian made wheels, these are a very high quality wheel. They are only available in 1 inch width.

http://www.cuttermasters.com/

Their grinder is great, but very expensive. Not sure about the other wheel listed above. I prefer the 1 1/2 inch wide wheels, just much easier to sharpen anything on. Never tried belts. If you are thinking about heading to Washington, look up D Way tools in the Seattle area. They are what I use. Come in 1 1/2 inch width, and custom bushings are available.

robo hippy

[Geoff Gaudet]

Welcome as others have said. For Canadian made wheels, these are a very high quality wheel. They are only available in 1 inch width.

http://www.cuttermasters.com/

robo hippy
Thanks for the info, Reed. I've already traded e-mails with Jeff at Cuttermasters. I'm thinking of a setup somewhat similar to this (http://www.cuttermasters.com/tradesman-dc-grinder-with-the-multitool-belt-attachment/) (I've found a cheap offshore version--I'll pick up some good belts and maybe a CBN wheel...).

Oh, and about D Way in Seattle...hmmm, a bit out of the way for me. I'm pretty much straight north of Spokane--and I only get there maybe once every coupla years. A city guy I am not.

[Reed Gray]

You have to be careful with 'cheap off shore versions'. The Cuttermaster is a great piece of equipment, but a bit much for my taste, though I may have to 'experiment' some day. For sure his stuff is top of the line. Some times, you Northerners have friends on the other side of the border who can hold a shipment for you till you get down to pick it up. I have never experimented with a belt type sharpening system. If they made a belt that would last like a CBN wheel, I would be really interested. The main thing I can see using one for is to round over the sides of my scrapers, so they look like most skews.

robo hippy

[Geoff Gaudet]

You have to be careful with 'cheap off shore versions'...Some times, you Northerners have friends on the other side of the border who can hold a shipment for you till you get down to pick it up. I have never experimented with a belt type sharpening system. If they made a belt that would last like a CBN wheel, I would be really interested.

Yeah, cheap offshore stuff...for some things, it's OK, but not for others. But of course almost everything is made "offshore" these days, and not all of it is junk. You just gotta figure out which is or isn't. I did a bit more research today, and found what I think will be a better machine, nearly twice the price but a better name and better motor--and it takes a more common belt size.

If you've never tried a belt grinder, check out this page from Robert Sorby (http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/proedge.htm) (video too). And that's not even using the "best" belts available...I've looked on a few knifemaker forums, and 3M's "Trizact" belts get rave reviews (and note, most knifemakers are using belt grinders, not wheels...). In any case, I think I'm gonna try one out. I still have the "Sabre Sharpening System" I bought from Woodturner's World back in the 90s, which is very similar to the Robert Sorby jig--except it doesn't have a bowl gouge jig, so I'll most likely pick up one of Oneway's.

Oh, and yeah, there's a place just over the line here which acts as a depot for lots of local Canadians--like I said, not much selection locally for a lot of things, so many locals do a lot of online shopping. However, I still prefer to get things in Canada if I can.