Dark Staining Birch while keeping the grain visible ...

[Christopher Juncosa]

Hello gentlemen. First, Ive lurked here for a while and found very useful information. Ive had a tough problem I cant get resolved so I thought it get a myself a membership and say hello.

Anyhow, Im having a very hard time finishing my current project and was hoping to get some insight. I made a wine-glass shelf a-la this guy:

http://img4-2.realsimple.timeinc.net/images/1010/entertaining-shelves_300.jpg

Its going above a sideboard we already have and therein lies the rub. I made it out of birch as thats what the sideboard is made out of (or at least its veneer). Its a very dark color piece and my struggles right now are getting it dark enough while still preserving any wood grain. Thats the part thats really getting to me. This piece looks wonderful with all the birch grain but the darker/thicker stains are masking it. So I was hoping to get some insight into how I can get the color down while also keeping the wonderful character of the wood in tact.

Ive tried (thus far) minwax oil stains (they were awful but were on my shelf so I gave them a whirl), a custom blended oil wipe on from Sherwin Williams, General Finishes gel Stain and all in multiple combos, etc. Im getting close on color but Im struggling with the grain!!

So, more specifically, can someone give me some insights on the advantages of some other products/processes? Namely: dyes. Are dyes a good approach? Ive heard GREAT things about Sherwin Williams BAC (sherwood branded) stains ... I actually wanted this but they made the wrong one and I took it anyway ... Is that something I should pursue further? Im not using any conditioner at the moment and Im not having any difficulty with blotching. I have heard that a BLO pre-coat will help both with blotching and 'enhance' the grain. Is this an option for pulling the grain detail out?

OK, sorry if that was long winded. Also I dont have any real spray capabilities. If I had to I could figure something out but its not an appealing option for me at the moment.

Thanks for the help!

[Prashun Patel]

I have had good luck with transtint and transfast dyes followed by oil stains.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Former home from the '20's had birch throughout the interior. Dark. No doubt it was finished with the "back-in-the-day" equivalent of dye - no way to know what alchemist stuff was in use beck then before there were more modern materials, and before there was OSHA and EPA. Birch was widely used then because the grain was reasonably similar to mahogany.

I'm with Prashun. Transfast powdered dye, dissolved in water, is easy to apply with no lap marks. Homestead Finishing-dot-com, but also widely available at local WW stores - sometimes not the full range of colors, but they will surely have the basics.

Dark Brown Mahog, or red mahog might be what you are looking for. Very easy to use.

Strongly advise you learn first about a sealer or seal coat - you should be able to get a lot of info here with the search function. Also - strongly advise a shellac seal coat on top of the dye, before final finishing. The easiest way to do this is the Zinnser aerosol spray shellac.


EDIT: I forgot the actual point: stains have [relatively speaking] large chunks of colored material suspended in a carrier. These chunks of color sit on top of the wood. Since birch is not open-grained [a la red oak] you get a more even layer of stuff sitting on top of the entire surface, making it hard to get color down without obscuring hte grain also. Dye has much smaller particle size, and colors the wood cells themselves - they don't penetrate the grain as easily as the background.

[John TenEyck]

Dye is the best way to darken the wood w/o masking the grain. I like Transtint as it's very easy to custom mix any color you need because you can add them drop by drop. I would bet that your sideboard was sprayed with a lacquer toner, but since you don't have a spray outfit, dying is you best option to match the color. Given enough patience, you should be able to do so, but you may still not get exactly the right "look". Matching both the color and "look" is often a very challenging project, sometimes involving dye, glaze, and/or toner.

If you are successful matching the color, but the "look" just isn't right, take a close look at the sideboard and see if you think it was sprayed with a toner. Look inside or underneath for evidence of sprayed color. If that's how the piece was finished, you may have better luck matching the look by making a toner of Transtint in a good waterbased topcoat, like General Finishes EnduroVar or Clear Poly. Spraying them on is best, but they can be brushed on with a foam brush, too. If you try that option, make the toner color light, and build it up in two or three coats to get the hue you need.

John

[Christopher Juncosa]

This is helpful, thanks.

I figured Id be in the dye realm with this project.

Id rather not use any water-based dyes as Id like to avoid a grain raising step in the application. I read a 50/50 DNA/Lacquer thinner mix works well with the transtint products. Unfortunately they dont have any recommendations about wash coats. More specifically, they make recommendations on other solvents but not the alcohol based ones. Is this reflecting a problem with some wash coats and the alcohol based solvents? Or should I just give up and use a water based approach?

Im thinking dye/dewaxed/maybe stain/poly ... that sound reasonable?

Thanks in advance!

[Scott Holmes]

The grain raising is really not a issue... Water dye, let it dry overnight. Then a coat or 2 of de-waxed shellac. Now the raised grain fibers are locked in placed and stiff. After the 1st or second coat of finish the light sanding will remove whatever fibers are still there (note they are now locked in 2 coats of shellac and 2 coat of finish) This way there is much less chance of sanding through and removing the color.


Using TransTint dye then applying de-waxed shellac will be prone to the dye moving around wit the shellac. Even when spraying the shellac the dye can run.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Using TransTint dye then applying de-waxed shellac will be prone to the dye moving around wit the shellac. Even when spraying the shellac the dye can run.

True. However, using the transfast powdered dye is much less prone to lifting, especially if you let it sit overnight. This pretty much eliminated the problem for me, and I do what Ob-Wan Holmes described on virtually every piece - dye, then 2 coats of 3/4# - 1# very light blonde shellac.

In fact, I have a very nice collection of transtint dyes that haven't been touched in 5 years...........guess I could pitch them, eh?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Im thinking dye/dewaxed/maybe stain/poly ... that sound reasonable?

Very reasonable. The stain may or may not help, but that depends on what you find in your test runs.

With the caveat that I am in the "no poly unless there is an overriding reason". And that is rare.

[Christopher Juncosa]

Well I certainly have my work cut out for me, it seems. After doing innumerable searches on the site Ive narrowed down my approach to no wash coat, probably the lockwood water soluble dyes, shellac (super blonde, platina maybe?!) and then maybe poly.

Kent, Im glad you brought up the need for poly. This is a shelf after all, and while things will be put on/off it, they'll be largely decorative. Aside from the occasional heavy handedness from someone getting something off the shelf, I doubt I need much abrasion resistance. Probably zero moisture resistance. Not in direct sunlight (for the near future) ... is poly necessary? What might be a more appealing top coat (aesthetically and functionally)?

Thanks for all the help guys!

[John TenEyck]

If you go the WB only dye route you will likely have to make up master batches of at least two colors and then mix them together to get the final color you need. That is why I like Transtint; its a lot easier to custom mix colors. And there's another way around sealing it in afterwards; just just a solvent based sealer over it, something like GF's Seal-A-Cell. That won't lift the dye. But I've never had any problems with the dye running by spraying shellac over it. Anyway, after it's sealed you can whatever you want over that. One more thing, lots of folks love to tread on poly finishes. I'm not one of them. You will find some excellent WB products these days, made by General Finishes and others. They often say Poly on the can, but in fact are mostly acrylic resin based, with a small amount of polyurethane added to increase the abrasion resistance. GF's Clear Poly or EnduroVar, for example, give a very clear, hard, durable finish. The Clear Poly will not yellow like a traditional varnish, they EnduroVar will. They are easily applied with a foam brush, have almost no odor, and dry in an hour and can be recoated in 3 or 4. Nope, they are not classic varnishes. Thankfully.

John

[John TenEyck]

As long as I'm being contrary let me add that I think it is better to deal with grain raising before dying than after, especially if you want a low build finish. You can greatly reduce the amount of grain that raises by sanding to at least 320 grit before finishing. Then wipe the wood well with distilled water and let dry at least 4 hours, preferably longer. Then gently sand the wood with 320 grit sand paper on a rubber or felt block, one or two swipes should be all it takes to cut off the whiskers. Repeat the water and sanding if you are really paranoid. Now when you dye the wood there should be very little raised grain to deal with later.

Try the deal with it first or deal with it after approach on a couple of specimens. See which you prefer.


John

[Kent A Bathurst]

is poly necessary? What might be a more appealing top coat (aesthetically and functionally)?

Me likey Waterlox.

[Kent A Bathurst]

As long as I'm being contrary let me add that I think it is better to deal with grain raising before dying than after, especially if you want a low build finish. You can greatly reduce the amount of grain that raises by sanding to at least 320 grit before finishing. Then wipe the wood well with distilled water and let dry at least 4 hours, preferably longer. Then gently sand the wood with 320 grit sand paper on a rubber or felt block, one or two swipes should be all it takes to cut off the whiskers. Repeat the water and sanding if you are really paranoid. Now when you dye the wood there should be very little raised grain to deal with later.

Try the deal with it first or deal with it after approach on a couple of specimens. See which you prefer.


John

Yeah - I used to do all that. However..........waterborne dye, and then a couple light coats of shellac, and then scuff sanding with 400g - and there is no need to go through all the pre-raising, IMO.

Not arguing, just saying...................

[John TenEyck]

Yeah - I used to do all that. However..........waterborne dye, and then a couple light coats of shellac, and then scuff sanding with 400g - and there is no need to go through all the pre-raising, IMO.

Not arguing, just saying...................

Try that on rift sawn white oak that's been sanded to 180 or 220 grit. You may have a different opinion afterwards. I had a real come-upence on that one.

John

[Mel Fulks]

Not a finisher, but I've had to sponge and sand lots of furniture. We didn't use anything finer than 150 grit on some very good stuff. I notice few sponge now ,but everyone seems to sand with much finer grit. No advice here,just an observation.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Try that on rift sawn white oak that's been sanded to 180 or 220 grit. You may have a different opinion afterwards. I had a real come-upence on that one.

John

Well, John 10............

The majority of my work for 12 years has been using the highest-end QSWO you can find.......... I'm talking veneer-quality flitches. The big-bucks boards. No issues, once I figured out my scheme. Help from Jewitt and the Homestead site, help from trial and error, got it down.

I never go past 180g. Non-show surfaces, and I'll stop at 150g. Shellac, WB dye, shellac, often a gel stain rubbed in and off to put color in the deep pores, shellac, knock down whatever nibs and grain fragments exist with Norton Gold 400 or 600, and off to the races. A table top with 4-5 brush-on coats of W'lox or Behlens Rockhard, and raised grain from the dye step is never an issue.

Just my experience - absolutely no interest in picking a fight. You're approach works for you, and that is how you should continue.