Blue Mold - How to mitigate it?

[Roger Chandler]

On my last thread with the flaming box elder, you see an area of blue mold that discolored the wood.

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This wood was very wet when we cut it and a couple of our club members said when they rough turned a bowl that water was slung all the way to the ceiling of their shops! It would not surprise me if the moisture content of this particular tree was in excess of 30%.

In these conditions, we have found that even with anchorseal and placing roughouts in dark areas and such that large cracks still happened to a number that have been roughed already.

Is there any way to mitigate these blue mold stains before they get bad or even after they occur. I would think that bleaching would also destroy the beautiful red.

Any techniques that have worked well for you in these kinds of situations?

[Fred Belknap]

Roger this is probably not much help but we had a lady demo using two part bleach on fame box elder. Her take on it was that the bleach actually enhanced the red coloring. Her demo seemed to support that.
No ideas on the blue mold.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger this is probably not much help but we had a lady demo using two part bleach on fame box elder. Her take on it was that the bleach actually enhanced the red coloring. Her demo seemed to support that.
No ideas on the blue mold.

Thanks Fred............that surprises me.........I would have thought bleach wood fade it away! Do you remember specifically what brand of bleach she used? Being two part, I would think it is a wood bleach? :confused:

[Doug Herzberg]

Roger, are you sure the wood was white when you stored it? I ask because of all the bug holes. It reminds me of the staining I see in pine when the beetles get it. I can see the beetle stain in the end grain, so I have an idea what I'm going to get when I turn it. Also, any idea why it is only affecting some of the wood and not all? Is any of the flame darkened or just the white? I don't have answers, just questions.

[Rob Price]

I did a little reading about the fading of the red when you posted this. I found an old 2008 AAW thread where they were using two part wood bleach on box elder. The thinking was it did affect the red a bit, but it made the surrounding wood much whiter thus increasing the contrast.

[Roger Chandler]

I did a little reading about the fading of the red when you posted this. I found an old 2008 AAW thread where they were using two part wood bleach on box elder. The thinking was it did affect the red a bit, but it made the surrounding wood much whiter thus increasing the contrast.

Another great bit of info to have, Rob! Thank you for posting it........sort of confirms what Fred was talking about earlier!

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, are you sure the wood was white when you stored it? I ask because of all the bug holes. It reminds me of the staining I see in pine when the beetles get it. I can see the beetle stain in the end grain, so I have an idea what I'm going to get when I turn it. Also, any idea why it is only affecting some of the wood and not all? Is any of the flame darkened or just the white? I don't have answers, just questions.

Hey Doug......I cannot give the answers to your questions as this is the first piece of this that I have turned [other than a really small scrap for a pen] I know that when we cut it with the chainsaws, the wood was mostly white and red.......I don't recall seeing blue staining, and I think because of the really high moisture levels in this tree, it molded after the anchorseal and such in storage.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

You do like the red mold but not the blue mold, and I'm afraid you can't change either one, also spalting is the same thing, and no bleach will not affect it, as it is not that kind of color you can affect with bleach,

In my experience these colors are enhanced if anything by bleaching, nice vase Roger, enjoy the coloration, any coloration, and not just red :)

[charlie knighton]

Roger.....you can buy 2 part wood bleach at Woodworkers Supply 336-578-0500
it is 2 part from Kleen Strip, mix in glass measuring cup, put on with brush, it will turn the wood white and pop the red. if you use a oil base finish over the bleech the wood will turn yellow like your piece, if you use a water based finish the wood will stay white with the red.....your choice

important: where facemask, where long sleeves with rubber chemical gloves (lowes), have water or vinegear standing buy to neaturize the bleech if anything happens, do it outside vapors

enjoy....i still have some, it does not go bad....and occasionnally i will use some

they let you show 3 pieces.....my other 2 are not shiney

[Roger Chandler]

Roger.....you can buy 2 part wood bleach at Woodworkers Supply 336-578-0500
it is 2 part from Kleen Strip, mix in glass measuring cup, put on with brush, it will turn the wood white and pop the red. if you use a oil base finish over the bleech the wood will turn yellow like your piece, if you use a water based finish the wood will stay white with the red.....your choice

important: where facemask, where long sleeves with rubber chemical gloves (lowes), have water or vinegear standing buy to neaturize the bleech if anything happens, do it outside vapors

enjoy....i still have some, it does not go bad....and occasionnally i will use some

they let you show 3 pieces.....my other 2 are not shiney

Thanks for the good info Charlie!:)

[Fred Belknap]

Roger what Charlie said, Kleen Strip. Couldn't remember the name till I saw his post. It's been a while and I couldn't find Kleen strip around here. Don't have any flame elder either.

[Dennis Ford]

A treatment with borax solution when first cut should help prevent the blue stain. A better prevention is to rough turn the wood ASAP and begin the drying process (I know this is easier said than done).

[robert baccus]

Roger, like Ford said, the big difference is time and moisture on the mildew. Turned 1/2 ton of the stuff last year and did find that BE has very little tendency to move or crack. I found I could turn to 95% final size green and so hurry the drying slowing the black mildew. I did reluctantly apply a fast thin coat of Watco oil which did pop the color nicely. I was afraid of yellowing? The borax idea is good. Check out "once a year" on 12/31/13 to see results. The vase with all the mildew sold first and well. The white and red one was roughed out about 2 weeks prior to the mildew piece. Google up the red and brown staining vs bug holes in BE--there are books written about this subject.

[Mike Cruz]

Roger, I just see that as spalting and take it for what it is worth...value! Now it is spalted FBE. :) I turned some recently, and my FIL saw it. He LOVED the blue/gray coloring.

Not sure how you could reverse the effects. But DNA rather than Anchorseal would be my best guess as to how to prevent it in the future.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, I just see that as spalting and take it for what it is worth...value! Now it is spalted FBE. :) I turned some recently, and my FIL saw it. He LOVED the blue/gray coloring.

Not sure how you could reverse the effects. But DNA rather than Anchorseal would be my best guess as to how to prevent it in the future.

Thanks Mike..........the DNA option had not occurred to me yet! Been real busy with many other things, but I appreciate the nudge in this direction! :)

[Jeff Nicol]

On most all white soft woods that are wet when stored or sealed will mold in some way or another and since box elder is very creamy white when it has no damage to the tree from either bugs or just a broken limb will let mold and other things enter into the tree. I think that when there are beetles involved that is when you get the more distinct flames or "Ambrosia" effect since it is a maple tree. Here in WI there will be red in the wood without any bug activity at all, but is either due to damage from wind, deer rubs, or woodpeckers/sapsuckers. I had a small piece of a tree where a bird had made holes all the way around it and when it was cut the holes created a very symetrical flame pattern on the limb. I have been going to take a small drill bit and make some holes just through the cambium layer to see if it can be replicated by human intervention.

The blue mold really likes fresh cut wood with sap still in the wood, so if the tree was still mostly alive, the white part was still untainted and alive. When I saw pine in the summer/spring I have to make sure to sticker the wood quickly and get all the surfaces dry pretty fast. I have sawn red pine and left it over night just flat stacked and the next day the mold is already growing inbetween the boards. This will happen with soft maples too, but it does not seem to penetrate like it does on pine. But like already said it is not possible in any way that I know to get rid of it once it is in the fibers of the wood. Just another natural beauty mark!

Good luck,

Jeff

[Roger Chandler]

Thanks Jeff for that info..........I appreciate your reply........your reply gives some additional perspective on the issue for me!

[Tim Rinehart]

Hey Roger, I came across some info that you may find interesting.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/blue-stain.pdf

[Mike Cruz]

Jeff (and Roger...and I suppose everyone else, too), YES, it is my understanding that you CAN create the flame in box elder quite easily. Earlier this year, I spoke with Dr. Sarah (the spalting pro out west). She quite flippantly mentioned that you can do it by simply drilling some holes in the tree. The flaming will start just like that...

BTW, I know I've mentioned this before, but just to add some info here: Again, from my understanding, any pigment in wood caused BY THE TREE is NOT colorfast. That is why the flames in box elder fade, cherry gets darker, walnut lightens, and ambrosia maple changes (more on that in a minute). The reason that these pigments change is that the tree does not expect UV light to ever reach it. So, the pigment is not protected from it. ON THE OTHER HAND, pigments caused by fungi ARE colorfast. Fungi (spalting) live in the sunlight. They are prepared for it. So, black line spalting will stay just as crisp, greys, blues, pinks, and greens will stay just as vibrant as when you first see them.

On ambrosia maple: There are two things going on here... The ambrosia beetle bores into the tree. This introduces fungi (call it mold if you want, but Sarah takes issue with that :) ) INTO the tree. As the fungi grows and spreads in the tree (the first discoloration in the wood), the tree reacts by "surrounding" the fungi to protect itself (the second color). If you've ever taken a good look at ambrosia maple from a very healthy tree, you'll see that there are two distinct colors/bands in each streak. So, ambrosia in maple is both a spalt (fungi) AND a tree reaction. The former is colorfast, the latter is not.

[Roger Chandler]

Hey Roger, I came across some info that you may find interesting.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/blue-stain.pdf

Thanks Mike..............I took a look and will go back and read the entire document when I have time to digest it. Thanks for the link!

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Jeff (and Roger...and I suppose everyone else, too), YES, it is my understanding that you CAN create the flame in box elder quite easily. Earlier this year, I spoke with Dr. Sarah (the spalting pro out west). She quite flippantly mentioned that you can do it by simply drilling some holes in the tree. The flaming will start just like that...

BTW, I know I've mentioned this before, but just to add some info here: Again, from my understanding, any pigment in wood caused BY THE TREE is NOT colorfast. That is why the flames in box elder fade, cherry gets darker, walnut lightens, and ambrosia maple changes (more on that in a minute). The reason that these pigments change is that the tree does not expect UV light to ever reach it. So, the pigment is not protected from it. ON THE OTHER HAND, pigments caused by fungi ARE colorfast. Fungi (spalting) live in the sunlight. They are prepared for it. So, black line spalting will stay just as crisp, greys, blues, pinks, and greens will stay just as vibrant as when you first see them.

On ambrosia maple: There are two things going on here... The ambrosia beetle bores into the tree. This introduces fungi (call it mold if you want, but Sarah takes issue with that :) ) INTO the tree. As the fungi grows and spreads in the tree (the first discoloration in the wood), the tree reacts by "surrounding" the fungi to protect itself (the second color). If you've ever taken a good look at ambrosia maple from a very healthy tree, you'll see that there are two distinct colors/bands in each streak. So, ambrosia in maple is both a spalt (fungi) AND a tree reaction. The former is colorfast, the latter is not.

You might be correct about that in certain areas Mike, like where the fungi is very prevalent, however around the London Ontario area this is not the case, even though I have cut and turned Manitoba Maple (Acer negundo) with lots of the red discoloration and without any, even though one tree had lost a couple of big limbs years earlier or others that did get damaged in ice storms.

Some pictures here for comparison and some info from a study done in the Kansas area, from before Sara Robinson (who's from our area of Ontario and a mother now I believe) did a lot of studies on the coloration (spaltings & rotting) of wood.

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[Dave Mueller]

I took the spalting course from Dr. Sara Robinson and really learned a lot. Incidentally, she is now at Oregon State and is still pregnant. Mike, you are correct about spalting being UV stable, whereas boxelder coloration is not. Roger, one thing you might want to try is spray the freshly cut log, especially the bark, with 95% DNA. In the spalting course, we learned to use it to kill any ambient spores on our worksurface so there was a sterile field to propagate spalting fungi without contaminating it from airborn spores. I also use it to clean all my plastic spalting tubs between runs. If the blue spalting fungus is on the surface of the freshly cut wood, the DNA should kill it and prevent blue stain spalting while it dries. Just a guess, but it may work.

[Roger Chandler]

I took the spalting course from Dr. Sara Robinson and really learned a lot. Incidentally, she is now at Oregon State and is still pregnant. Mike, you are correct about spalting being UV stable, whereas boxelder coloration is not. Roger, one thing you might want to try is spray the freshly cut log, especially the bark, with 95% DNA. In the spalting course, we learned to use it to kill any ambient spores on our worksurface so there was a sterile field to propagate spalting fungi without contaminating it from airborn spores. I also use it to clean all my plastic spalting tubs between runs. If the blue spalting fungus is on the surface of the freshly cut wood, the DNA should kill it and prevent blue stain spalting while it dries. Just a guess, but it may work.

Thanks Dave..........spraying DNA sounds like an easy thing to try........I appreciate your reply!

[charlie knighton]

you can bleach other woods, here is maple with some carving like JJ, the spalting is subdued, it is not erased, sort of faded, ok look i think

my pictures have not progressed since then

[Leo Van Der Loo]

you can bleach other woods, here is maple with some carving like JJ, the spalting is subdued, it is not erased, sort of faded, ok look i think

my pictures have not progressed since then

I have bleached wood, Maple that was spalted, did use the 2 part wood bleach, the spalting lines are as sharp and vivid as from the pieces I did not bleach.

Here are a couple of pictures to show the outcome of he bleached wood and you can compare that with the pieces that are not bleached, HTH :)

The coloration made by fungus is not affected by Bleach.

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[charlie knighton]

exactly Leo, if you have the black line it stands out , the rest of spalting is subdued. like your ornaments Leo

the blue mold since it is not black line will be subdued

[Roger Chandler]

Thanks everyone for your input on this question! Lots of interesting discussion on bleaching and other means..........I am most appreciative of all the responses! I have several ideas I can try now, including embracing the blue/gray stains! ;)

[robert baccus]

I'm pretty sure the blue stain or spalting is common old black mildew--forgot the genus. Great bleaching Leo-have you tried that on Wenge. Really weird results.