Ideas for attaching granite for jointer infeed/outfeed?

[Phil Thien]

Maybe you guys remember my thread a few months ago looking for a jointer cutterhead.

I've purchased a 12" wide jointer cutterhead on eBay, it is on the way.

My plan is to make the base from 8020. The head will be attached with pillow blocks.

I was thinking of various materials for in/outfeed tables. Aluminum or steel plate, laminated BB, etc.

But what about pieces of granite? The trouble is, I have no idea how I'd attach the granite. How is granite typically attached when used on table saws and jointers? Are there threaded holes? Epoxied inserts?

[Andrew Joiner]

Phil, Are you making a jointer?

[Jamie Buxton]

Do you have facilities for beveling the granite? On most jointers, the table edges near the jointer head are beveled back underneath the table. This allows the tables to support the workpiece close to the cutter head, but not hit the cutter head. Granite is usually 3/4" thick, so it will want to be beveled quite substantially.

[david brum]

What about torsion boxes for the in feed and out feed with a relatively thin ( 1"?) layer of granite epoxied or screwed to the top? Then all of the mechanical business could be screwed to the underside of the torsion box. I know that manmade material like mdf is pretty stable, but not sure if it's stable enough for a jointer. Also, how long do you plan the beds to be?

[Phil Thien]

Phil, Are you making a jointer?

That is the plan. I have some ideas on how I'd like to accomplish this, I don't know if it will work out. The jointer head was $90 and the 8020 and pillow blocks aren't terribly expensive.

So I'm going to try to make a jointer, but I may fail.

My goal is a 12" wide unit that I can move easily myself. I want a light-weight 12" wide jointer with about 4' of length.

[Phil Thien]

Do you have facilities for beveling the granite? On most jointers, the table edges near the jointer head are beveled back underneath the table. This allows the tables to support the workpiece close to the cutter head, but not hit the cutter head. Granite is usually 3/4" thick, so it will want to be beveled quite substantially.

Not really.

I had a few different ideas. One was to use a 24x24 tile cut in half. The tiles are pretty thin so I could maybe attach the tile to some sort of substrate and allow the tile to overhang and get sort of closer to the head. Not sure how well that would work. Plus I'd be worried about attaching the tile to the substrate. It would suck if I'm pushing the stock and having the tile break loose and shove into the head.

I had thought of having a shop that works w/ granite do it for me, using thicker material. But then I need to figure out how to attach the tables.

Not even positive I want to use the granite.

[Phil Thien]

What about torsion boxes for the in feed and out feed with a relatively thin ( 1"?) layer of granite epoxied or screwed to the top? Then all of the mechanical business could be screwed to the underside of the torsion box. I know that manmade material like mdf is pretty stable, but not sure if it's stable enough for a jointer. Also, how long do you plan the beds to be?

I was thinking of even thinner (1/4"-1/2") thick granite floor tile. The epoxy thing kinda scares me, if that breaks loose I'd have a real problem.

Another thought that occurs to me is UHMW plastic screwed down to a substrate (like small torsion boxes). My current jointer has countersunk screw holes on the outfeed table and they don't seem to get in the way. I'm not sure how UHMW plastic would work for a jointer table, even if I can keep it flat, though.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Phil, I'd be a bit worried that granite may chip into the cutter if a board whacks it, or vibrations, or something you have no control of. It's pretty brittle, and the thinner the worse. Why not just use aluminum if you want light?

[Sam Murdoch]

First of all Phil I want to say that I am impressed with your initiative. I would never think to build my own jointer. But then - why not? It's just another cool thing to build. Anyway, having some experience with both granite and aluminum I add my +1 to Steve's comment above. Granite can have hidden flaws that could manifest in a bad way when used in conjunction with moving cutter heads, pieces of wood and human hands. I surely would consider aluminum over granite unless you are absolutely certain of the structural integrity of your 12" wide a 2' +/- granite.

[Phil Thien]

First of all Phil I want to say that I am impressed with your initiative. I would never think to build my own jointer. But then - why not? It's just another cool thing to build. Anyway, having some experience with both granite and aluminum I add my +1 to Steve's comment above. Granite can have hidden flaws that could manifest in a bad way when used in conjunction with moving cutter heads, pieces of wood and human hands. I surely would consider aluminum over granite unless you are absolutely certain of the structural integrity of your 12" wide a 2' +/- granite.


Alright Steve and Sam, I think that is good advice. I haven't worked w/ granite and I sure don't want pieces chipping off near the spinning parts!

I guess I will probably make some laminated in/out tables to start with, so I can see if it works or if it is a total bust. If that works I'll invesitate something like steel or aluminum plate as a more permanent solution. I have a few different ideas for table height adjustment so the laminated plywood will give me a chance to test my ideas out, as well.

[Phil Thien]

BTW, as I mentioned in a reply above, I have a 2-3 ideas for table height adjustment...

BUT...

On all the jointers I've ever used, I've never adjusted the infeed height beyond the initial setup (I take about 1/32" per swipe). And the outfeed tables on all my jointers have been fixed. Seeing as I basically want to use this to flatten wide lumber, and get a straight edge, I wonder how much I should invest (dollars and time) in tables that go up/down.

Do you guys adjust your tables much?

[Doug Herzberg]

Phil, the guys who did out counter attached it to the cabinet boxes with ordinary automotive Bondo. Of course, they're out of business now. Different granites have different densities and levels of structural integrity. I think veining can imply a weak line. Around here, the granite companies are donating their cutoffs to the Habitat Restore. Our company said they filled a Dumpster every two weeks or so and just had it hauled away. I was looking for a paving material for a mosaic pattern. Didn't follow through because of the slick finish on most slabs.

The slabs can be cut with a diamond wheel on an angle grinder. A wet saw for tile work might suffice, but the 3cm material for countertops would overload those motors pretty quickly. Good luck with your project.

[Myk Rian]

Granite is heavy, aluminum is light. If you want portability in a 12" jointer, aluminum is the choice.
There are a couple examples of home made jointers on the VM site.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I guess I never adjust my jointer either. I know you can use it to make sprung cauls and such by changing the outfeed table, but I just don't need that feature. Fixed is simple, and lighter, but I think you'd want some adjustibility to both in and out for initial setup. Could just be loosen a bolt type of thing I'd think.

[Jeff Duncan]

I've only seen a couple jointers with granite tables and they "seemed" like they were drilled and counterbored for through bolts. I say "seemed" since I was not at liberty to take them apart;)

One other suggestion……keep an eye out on your local CL as sometimes larger basket case jointers go for very little money. Maybe even post a couple wanted to buy ads? Something like an old rusted jointer with broken parts may go for a couple hundred bucks. May be a longshot, but it doesn't cost anything but a little time to look.

good luck,
JeffD

[Phil Thien]

One other suggestion……keep an eye out on your local CL as sometimes larger basket case jointers go for very little money. Maybe even post a couple wanted to buy ads? Something like an old rusted jointer with broken parts may go for a couple hundred bucks. May be a longshot, but it doesn't cost anything but a little time to look.

good luck,
JeffD

Too heavy, and I'm itching to build one for some reason.

[Dick Mahany]

The epoxy thing kinda scares me, if that breaks loose I'd have a real problem.

For many years I used 3M 2216 B/A adhesive to bond heavy lens optics onto metal mounts. They were actually bonded on the polished glass surface and mounted upside down and the bond was stronger than the glass itself. I can only remember of one catastrophic failure (from a significant impact) and in that case the bond never failed because there was glass on both sides of the adhesive and a big chunk of glass missing from the lens. That epoxy is somewhat slow to cure, has near zero shrinkage and is quite permanent.

[Jamie Buxton]

BTW, as I mentioned in a reply above, I have a 2-3 ideas for table height adjustment...

BUT...

On all the jointers I've ever used, I've never adjusted the infeed height beyond the initial setup (I take about 1/32" per swipe). And the outfeed tables on all my jointers have been fixed. Seeing as I basically want to use this to flatten wide lumber, and get a straight edge, I wonder how much I should invest (dollars and time) in tables that go up/down.

Do you guys adjust your tables much?

Oh, yes, the infeed on my jointer goes up and down quite a bit. Maybe I'm face-jointing a rough board -- saw marks, cupping, warp. The infeed goes down for a deep cut. Maybe I'm straightlining the edge of that roughsawn board. Again, deep cut. But maybe I'm doing a fine finish cut on a board. The infeed comes up for a shallow cut.

The outfeed, in contrast, only moves in initial alignment, or if the initial alignment gets loused up.

[david brum]

Phil, I assume you've looked at the Woodgears plan? It looks like at least one guy built his with just a laminate face, intending to attach sheet steel if the laminate doesn't hold up. Seems like a relatively simple design and not too tough to build, although seasonal stability might be a concern?

R.e. the adjustable in feed height, I adjust mine all the time. Heavy cuts for rough lumber, light cuts for already milled lumber. I guess if you're only buying pre-milled boards, you might only want light cuts. Otherwise, it takes (me) forever to establish an initial flat face on rough sawn lumber with just light cuts.

[Jim Foster]

One suggestion: You might consider fixing both beds front and back. Or at least semi-fixing. This will get rid of a lot of potential slop and design issues associated with being able to easily adjust the front bed, and once you get everything parallel, if the beds are fixed, they will only need occasional checking and adjustment.

I like the idea of granite beds with aluminum angle iron pieces mounted by the cutterhead. if you have not seen pictures or one in the shop, the Delta DJ-20 has aluminum pieces bolted onto the cast iron beds near the cutterhead.

[Judson Green]

What's the head from/for? A lunch box planner? Got link? Pictour?

As for the beds I'd go BB for Apple ply and lam both sides. Maybe use aluminum angle iron for the ends next the cutter, not sure how easy maintaining flat (No bump at the seem) would be though.

Making it with parallelogram adjusters are you going to try to do a wedge bed?

[Phil Thien]

What's the head from/for? A lunch box planner? Got link? Pictour?

As for the beds I'd go BB for Apple ply and lam both sides. Maybe use aluminum angle iron for the ends next the cutter, not sure how easy maintaining flat (No bump at the seem) would be though.

Making it with parallelogram adjusters are you going to try to do a wedge bed?

Yes, one idea is a wedge bed. I have a couple of ideas for possible wedges, but still working on a locking mechanism.

Another idea is using "boat" hinges. These are continuous hinges with three pieces. If I used two of them per table, then the tables should move up/down and stay in parallel planes. And locking becomes a bit easier.

I think I'm going to probably start with fixed tables and try it, and then move on from there. I'm somewhat concerned about table locking, I don't want things shifting when I'm pushing a 12" wide board through the thing.

BTW, it is a 12" jointer head, not a planer head, from a Grizzly GO609.

[Judson Green]

Yes, one idea is a wedge bed. I have a couple of ideas for possible wedges, but still working on a locking mechanism.

Another idea is using "boat" hinges. These are continuous hinges with three pieces. If I used two of them per table, then the tables should move up/down and stay in parallel planes. And locking becomes a bit easier.

I think I'm going to probably start with fixed tables and try it, and then move on from there. I'm somewhat concerned about table locking, I don't want things shifting when I'm pushing a 12" wide board through the thing.

BTW, it is a 12" jointer head, not a planer head, from a Grizzly GO609.

Both tables fixed? Or just the out?

Just had a thought. What about four wedges per bed like Oliver did? May not need to use a lock then and you could use something off the shelf (those little matching wedge things that machinist use).

[Art Mann]

BTW, as I mentioned in a reply above, I have a 2-3 ideas for table height adjustment...

BUT...

On all the jointers I've ever used, I've never adjusted the infeed height beyond the initial setup (I take about 1/32" per swipe). And the outfeed tables on all my jointers have been fixed. Seeing as I basically want to use this to flatten wide lumber, and get a straight edge, I wonder how much I should invest (dollars and time) in tables that go up/down.

Do you guys adjust your tables much?

Like you, I don't usually adjust the infeed and outfeed tables on my jointer. It sure would make things easier if you could just design for a single cutting depth of 1/32" or so. It is going to be quite a challenge to design and build an adjustment mechanism that will keep the two tables on parallel planes.

Please post updates as you go along. This sounds like a very interesting project and one I would like to follow.

By the way, I watched a Youtube video the other day where someone bought an old Delta lunchbox planer and built a wide jointer with it. I may try to find it and post a link so you can see how they did it.

Good luck.

Edit: Here is a link to the video I watched the other day - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chjBZGbJy9c There are many other videos on the same subject. I found it interesting that he made a parallelogram type infeed height adjustment.

[Phil Thien]

By the way, I watched a Youtube video the other day where someone bought an old Delta lunchbox planer and built a wide jointer with it. I may try to find it and post a link so you can see how they did it.

Good luck.

Thanks Art. I've seen many of those videos.

It is interesting because I had been thinking about this for some time and then the Woodgears.ca article showed up on how he did his. And if nothing else, that kind of confirmed (to me) that the method I had envisioned should work, too. It gave me some confidence to proceed.

But it took a while to decide on what head size to use, and then to find one that wouldn't be cost prohibitive.

[Andrew Joiner]

Too heavy, and I'm itching to build one for some reason.

I get that itch too, had it since I was a kid. Funny, because now I can afford any new machine I want.

Light and flat tables will be the challenge. Maybe torsion boxes with a replaceable steel or p-lam wear surface. I have some abrasion resistant plastic laminate that I tested and it's much harder to scratch than regular p-lam. You could go to a used steel or junk dealer and find some thicker steel. If you pick through it you might find flat pieces.

I'd have 2 cutting heights on the infeed table, like 1/32" and 1/8''. That would be simpler and lighter than fully adjustable.
How about 3/16" to 1/4" thick steel tables held down with magnets.The height could be adjusted with steel shims between the magnets and table. Epoxy a stop on the bottom so it would never slide into the cutter.

Oh man, now I'm starting to itch!

[Jeff Duncan]

Too heavy, and I'm itching to build one for some reason.

I should have been more specific….I was thinking you could salvage the tables from an otherwise junk machine? Cast iron tables wouldn't be all that much heavier than granite I wouldn't think…..possibly lighter?

Also I wouldn't try to go too light….in general terms heavier is better when it comes to machinery;)

JeffD

[Rick Potter]

Phil,

There are different grades of granite. Some are pretty coarse, and would chip pretty easily. Why not just use particle board with Formica for the surface, as part of a torsion box setup. Seems a lot safer, as well as lighter.

Rick Potter

[Phil Thien]

I should have been more specific….I was thinking you could salvage the tables from an otherwise junk machine? Cast iron tables wouldn't be all that much heavier than granite I wouldn't think…..possibly lighter?

Also I wouldn't try to go too light….in general terms heavier is better when it comes to machinery;)

JeffD

The Inca units are pretty light. I'm trying to hit that class. Now, if I had granite tables that could be easily removed for transportation, I would have been okay with that, but if I was going to end-up with a 1000 # behemoth when I was done, well, I may just as well buy one.

[Phil Thien]

Phil,

There are different grades of granite. Some are pretty coarse, and would chip pretty easily. Why not just use particle board with Formica for the surface, as part of a torsion box setup. Seems a lot safer, as well as lighter.

Rick Potter

The only thing is, granite would be more abrasion resistant. And I'll try laminate during testing, but I think I'd like steel plate when I'm done, just the durability and stability.

[Phil Thien]

I get that itch too, had it since I was a kid. Funny, because now I can afford any new machine I want.

Light and flat tables will be the challenge. Maybe torsion boxes with a replaceable steel or p-lam wear surface. I have some abrasion resistant plastic laminate that I tested and it's much harder to scratch than regular p-lam. You could go to a used steel or junk dealer and find some thicker steel. If you pick through it you might find flat pieces.

I'd have 2 cutting heights on the infeed table, like 1/32" and 1/8''. That would be simpler and lighter than fully adjustable.
How about 3/16" to 1/4" thick steel tables held down with magnets.The height could be adjusted with steel shims between the magnets and table. Epoxy a stop on the bottom so it would never slide into the cutter.

Oh man, now I'm starting to itch!

Good idea on the two-heigh idea.

What kind of laminate was that?

[Keith Weber]

All this talk about using granite reminds me of that beer commercial where a bunch of guys are standing in a nice kitchen. The homeowner hands a beer with a cap on it to one of his buddies. The guy puts the beer up against the corner of the island, so that the cap is just catching the corner of the granite counter top. He then takes his other hand and whacks the top of the bottle to open it. When he whacks it, about a 5 inch chuck of granite breaks off the corner. I crack up every time I see that.

It's funny when it's someone else's counter when you weren't the one that did it. I'm not sure it would be so funny if a chunk next to the cutter broke off when you were pushing a piece of wood through the jointer. Good for counter tops, surface plates, and assembly tables, bad for tools where blades spin at high speeds.

For design purposes, my Northfield has a piece of steel angle iron bolted to the infeed and outfeed tables where it overhangs the cutter.

[Charlie Jones]

I like the Parallelogram adjusters that Matthias on Woodgears.ca di on his homemade jointer.

[Phil Thien]

I like the Parallelogram adjusters that Matthias on Woodgears.ca di on his homemade jointer.

I agree, he did a very nice job on that jointer. In the end I may still copy that aspect.

[Andrew Joiner]

The Inca units are pretty light. I'm trying to hit that class. Now, if I had granite tables that could be easily removed for transportation, I would have been okay with that, but if I was going to end-up with a 1000 # behemoth when I was done, well, I may just as well buy one.

Wilsonart has an abrasion resistant p-lam. Nevamar Armored Protection is the one I used. They have aluminum oxide in the topcoat.
Granite would stay more flat than steel or p-lam. 3/4" thick Granite is 13Lb per sq ft so your tables would be 52 lbs. You could make them removable and just adjust the cut depth with 2 sets of different height blocks.

[Alan Bienlein]

I agree, he did a very nice job on that jointer. In the end I may still copy that aspect.

Why not just buy his plans and substitute granite for the plywood and sheet metal he used for the in feed and out feed and be done with it.

[Phil Thien]

Why not just buy his plans and substitute granite for the plywood and sheet metal he used for the in feed and out feed and be done with it.

Because I think I can do better? Real jointer head instead of lunchbox planer head + motor, aluminum base instead of wood, and I have a couple of other clever ideas I'd like to try.

[Charlie Jones]

You could use his plans with mods and use metal instead of wood. I have thought about doing that.

[Phil Thien]

You could use his plans with mods and use metal instead of wood. I have thought about doing that.

His plans won't really work though because of the type of head I'm using.

If I were going to gut a planer and reuse the parts, the plans would be far more useful.

For the record, gutting a planer and using his plans may have been the smart move, I'm just going to try something different.

[Judson Green]

Well I for one am interested in seeing/hearing what you make and my gut tells me that it should be quieter.

About how long are you shooting for? What are you gonna use for a fence? Adjustable, not just 90°?

[Curt Harms]

The only thing is, granite would be more abrasion resistant. And I'll try laminate during testing, but I think I'd like steel plate when I'm done, just the durability and stability.

I made a jig to sit on the planer bed of a Jet JJP-12. I was planing 1 X 4s to look like siding. I started out with a melamine board, that didn't last 12 pieces, wore right through. I then glued some generic white HPL to plywood. That was much more abrasion resistant. I suspect with hand feeding laminate would wear pretty well but if it were not fairly easily replaced, hmmm. Re granite, have you considered the vibration damping benefit? Light is good to a point.

[mreza Salav]

Granite pieces found at typical suppliers are not very flat. I once got a 2'x2' piece from a supplier of kitchen counter tops to use for my home made drum sander table and it was way out of flat. Fortunately I hand told them what I need it for and that it had to be absolutely flat, so they agreed to take it back.

[Phil Thien]

Well I for one am interested in seeing/hearing what you make and my gut tells me that it should be quieter.

About how long are you shooting for? What are you gonna use for a fence? Adjustable, not just 90°?

Overall length of just about 4' at this point. If it works well I may revisit that. But 4' should allow me to flatten most anything I'll ever use in one of my projects.

My first fence will no doubt be fixed at 90. Adjusting the fence is another thing I never do, I'm a 90-degree fence guy.

[Phil Thien]

The jointer head finally arrived. There is a knick in one of the knives, but I'm happy.

The thing weights approx. 40 pounds!!! So I've been contemplating construction details. If I use the 8020, I would go with the 2x4 stuff (the 2040 series).

I had thought about using LVL, but the problem is I'm concerned about seasonal changes in the width.

So the next step is to get the pillow blocks, and enough 2040 to make the two rails and I think at least four cross-pieces, and all the hardware.

I guess I have to decide on how long I want the tables and how much the tables can overhang the 2040 rails. The 2040 isn't cheap even on eBay so I don't want to buy any more than needed.

[John Nesmith]

WRT granite, what would worry me as much as anything else is the effects of long term vibration on the tables. If you happen to use a piece of granite with some sort of imperceptible flaw, things may not end up well after prolonged vibration.

[Kevin Jenness]

Just out of curiosity, why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? There are a lot of perfectly good used jointers out there (as well as plenty of poor to fair ones) made with proven designs and materials, at reasonable cost.

[david brum]

Phil, I'll take the opposite tack and applaud you for trying something so ambitious. I'm anxious to see photos of what you come up with. You rarely disappoint!

[Judson Green]

I agree that there is lots of good old used arn out there, but none fit the bill for Phil.

The used market, or new, doesn't seem to have a light weight 12" short bed (~48") jointer, one you can get down the basement steps.

I applaud Phil's efforts too. Can't wait for the show n tell!

[Tai Fu]

I have a 12" short bed jointer. I think the bed is probably about 50" or so... no idea who made it but I paid a total of 500 dollars including delivery. Works well when the blade is sharp.

[Phil Thien]

Just out of curiosity, why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? There are a lot of perfectly good used jointers out there (as well as plenty of poor to fair ones) made with proven designs and materials, at reasonable cost.

Yep, Judson hit the nail on the head below, I want a 12" jointer I can actually transport myself. I wouldn't mind having to remove the tables, as long as I can replace them w/o spending too much time aligning them again. If I can make a 12" jointer that I can pickup and take upstairs w/o removing tables, so much the better.

I hate to tell you guys this but after the jointer, I have a plan in mind for a very weird resaw-type bandsaw, too.

[Phil Thien]

You rarely disappoint!

That is because I don't post pictures of the disappointments.

[Judson Green]

I hate to tell you guys this but after the jointer, I have a plan in mind for a very weird resaw-type bandsaw, too.


Does it involve a motorcycle and a forklift?