Tablesaw Decisions

[Dok Yager]

Ok first off Hi everyone! This is my first post over here. I am looking at purchasing a new tablesaw in March and have driven myself NUTZ with research. :rolleyes: I have narrowed the choices down to just 3 Grizzly 1023RL, Jet Exacta 30" 3 hp or the "venerable" don`t laugh too much Sawstop 30" 3hp. After all this research and reviews I would love to have a close up and hands on look at a grizzly, however the closest showroom to me is 1100 miles away. Too far to go just for a look see. I have been over under around and through the other two saws at dealers here in the greater Phoenix area. Anyone offer any suggestions? I hate to buy something sight unseen.

[Rich Riddle]

It would help to indicate where you are located.

[Dok Yager]

I thought I did when I said "the greater Phoenix area" AZ that is guess I missed the AZ part.

[glenn bradley]

The 1023 has a long and loyal following and by all reports is a solid machine. I have the SS PCS 3HP and as so many have said in the past, I would buy it even without the safety feature. On a previous saw I did find 30" to be too short too often. I simply moved the fence tube over one set of screw holes and found that 40" was adequate most of the time. When I bought the Saw Stop I went with the long rails but, this is purely a personal decision as the saw itself is the same.

[Rich Riddle]

Call Grizzly's customer service phone number. Tell them your situation and that you would like to see a saw near you. They will contact customers in your area with the saw you want to purchase. Many businesses purchase Grizzly products. They then will contact you with information of where you may go to look at the saw you want to consider.

[Jim Rimmer]

I thought I did when I said "the greater Phoenix area" AZ that is guess I missed the AZ part.

Put your location in your profile and it will show up at the top of the post. That's where everyone looks for location (even though it was in your post). :)

[Dok Yager]

Thanks glenn. I am going to get the shorter table because I want to add the Incra LS52-TS-WF fence system to it. http://www.toolzone.com/acatalog/info_INCLS52_TS_WF.html

[Dok Yager]

I have already contacted Grizzly and they told me "no one" in my area was willing to let me have a look! I find that awfully hard to believe with an area as big as greater metro Phoenix, AZ area,

[Ray Newman]

Given your circumstances, esp. since you are reluctant to buy sight unseen, go with the Saw Stop.

I run a dependable older Uni-saw and if looking for a replacement to it, I would go with the Saw Stop. From those that I have seen and examined, Saw Stop has a very good fit and finish, height and bevel changes are almost effortless, outstanding customer support, plus the extra advantage of the safety feature. Without starting any Internet urinating matches, my SWAG (scientific Wild Arsed Guess) is that there is no comparison between the Saw Stop and the other two. The only downside to the Saw Stop that I see is the miter gauge, but then all OEM miter gage are not known to be the best quality.

[Tony Streible]

My little, biased opinion would think that if you were buying new, go with the SawStop. Safety. Also, and maybe just as important, you will be paving roads in the USA.

[Rich Riddle]

My little, biased opinion would think that if you were buying new, go with the SawStop. Safety. Also, and maybe just as important, you will be paving roads in the USA.SawStop is not made in the USA if that's what you mean; it's Asian. Not important to me, but it's not American built.

[Dok Yager]

As far as I know pretty much All the new saws have some or most parts built in China, Taiwan or somewhere in Asia even PM. So that becomes a moot point for me. I just want a really good quality saw for the money spent that I can add the Incra fence to.

[Rich Riddle]

As far as I know pretty much All the new saws have some or most parts built in China, Taiwan or somewhere in Asia even PM. So that becomes a moot point for me. I just want a really good quality saw for the money spent that I can add the Incra fence to.You are correct, most saws are Asian built or manufactured with some Asian parts (Unisaw). The Asian saws have very good quality. That said, there is a Canadian saw that's very good quality as well, General. Write someone in your local woodworking club and ask if he will ask members if they have a Grizzly. Several in the Cincinnati club have them because of the value. I show the sliding saw to anyone who contacts the club to see one or if someone contacts the manufacturer.

[Mike Shields]

I was in this situation several months ago (notice I'm in Denver, where there are no close show rooms).

I bought he SawStop 3hp PCS 36", and have ZERO regrets. Well, that's not true; I wish I had bought it sooner.

Mike

[David Helm]

If you could make it to the Northwest I would be happy to let you test run my Grizzly 1023RLX. Of course, if you could get here you would be in the same town as Grizzly headquarters. I am very happy with this saw. It is a better saw, in my opinion, than the Jet cabinet saw I had previously.

[johnny means]

I've worked extensively the Grizzly and the Jet. IMO, the Grizzly is an amazing value and proven performer. I remember it being stout and dependable. The shop I was in at the time mounted a feeder on it and ripped 4/4 all day long. My experience with the Jet are less positive. It was used to rip 3/4 particle board sheets in half, maybe forty sheets a week. It suffered multiple breakdowns and was eventually replaced with a PM. Currently I own a SS and love it. If I were in the market, I would be deciding between the Grizzly's value and the Sawstop's safety. The Jet doesn't offer anything special, IMO.

[tom gepfrich]

The safety aspect is one that you will have to budget. Both saws are awesome and values in their own ways. I have had a few close calls with my table saw and now look at sawstop technology as something I want. If you pony up for the sawstop now you will not be faced with the upgrade dilemma.

[Tony Streible]

Before I made the original post, I had done a quick search "Where are SawStop saws made" and the result was advertised as headquartered in Tualatin, Oregon. I guess that changed. Oh well... Or, if advertising as "headquartered" no longer means the company provides U.S. jobs, then it no longer matters.

[Scott Reed]

I owned a Grizzly 1023RLW and now a Sawstop PCS 3HP 36". When I bought the Grizzly I debated between it and the SS. The price won out.The Grizzly is an awesome machine. I loved it. The I had a router table mishap which got me thinking about SS again. So I sold my Grz and bought the SS. The SS is better in every way. I should have bought it first and been done with it. That said, the Grizzly is a fantastic machine that will certainly get the job done. But if you have the money, get the SS and enjoy having no regrets or second thoughts.

[Scott Reed]

They're still headquartered there, never made anything in the US though. This doesn't change the fact that they are incredible saws that could not be made better had they been built here. Would be nice if they were made here just for the jobs it would provide though.

Before I made the original post, I had done a quick search "Where are SawStop saws made" and the result was advertised as headquartered in Tualatin, Oregon. I guess that changed. Oh well... Or, if advertising as "headquartered" no longer means the company provides U.S. jobs, then it no longer matters.

[Ralph Butts]

This doesn't change the fact that they are incredible saws that could not be made better had they been built here.

I know a boat load of american machinist that might disagree with that assertion. :D

[Jeff Heath]

I know a boat load of american machinist that might disagree with that assertion. :D

Nothing truer ever said. I have a hard time reading these posts about pacific rim woodworking machines. None of them come close in quality than finding a nice, older Powermatic 66 that was made in Tennessee. Either an older gold era, or better yet, the green era. Nothing made that is stamped with the bear name even comes close. I've restored several of them, and have been inside where it all counts. The quality of the castings, and the sheer mass of the trunnions on an older PM 66 are what make it a much higher quality machine.

If you teach yourself to know what to look for, it's not that hard to figure out where quality makes a difference. All that cast iron mass, along with the higher quality castings to begin with, and American precision machining make the tables flatter, the trunnions heavier, and in better alignment, and a saw that is vibration free that will last you decades with maybe a $50 bearing change every 20 years or so.

I paid $300 for this one off Clist. It was made in 1985
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab57/hawkfan9/1985%20Powermatic%2066/IMAG0179_zpsa0c130b1.jpg

Took it apart, cleaned it, changed the bearings, and painted it and now it looks like this:

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab57/hawkfan9/1985%20Powermatic%2066/c34f68fe-4d1b-4f10-b445-98cc56bd3afe_zpse13115a1.jpg

Most of them don't need a thing.

[Tim Morton]

You may be able to find a "shop fox" cabinet saw close to you. While it is not a grizzly...its pretty darn close. Grizzly may lack a little in fit and finish dept compared to Shop Fox, but the shop fox will give you a pretty good idea of what to expect with the Grizzly.

[johnny means]

Please, stop the bull. Asian made machines are what they are because that is what we are willing to pay for not because they don't have the talent or ability to do better. What do you expect? I'd like to see what a factory in the U.S.A. would deliver for $1200. My Sawstop ICS is an Asian made machine and I would put it up against any similarly sized saw. It was delivered to me impecceably finished and perfectly adjusted and has remained that way in a commercial environment for five years now. Of course, I paid dearly for that level of quality. Don't think for one minute that anyone anyplace on this earth can't manufacture to the exact same specs as us. Saying we're better doesn't make it so.

[Bill Space]

Well, the way I see it is if you expect you may frequently put yourself in a position to cut a finger off , then buy the Saw Stop for sure. It will not guarantee that you will not cut a finger off anyway, but it will GREATLY reduce the chances that you will. If you don't expect such a thing will happen, it still could, so consider your choice carefully.

Myself I am very happy with my Grizzly 2023RLWX. But I realize that it does not offer the best safety protection when compared to the SS. I think, but do not remember now, that it did offer a pretty good price advantage, but that difference would soon disappear in pain and suffering, let alone medical bills, if the worst happened.

Buying the SS still does not (or should not) relieve one from practicing generally accepted safety procedures. Jigs, push sticks, hold downs and so on.

I don't regret buying my Grizzly saw...and that is the best I can say. We each have to consider what is best for us. I don't think (but could be wrong) that the SS or any other traditional table saw is that much different in capability than my Grizzly as far as cutting wood goes. I did put my Unifence on my saw, so I can't speak for the fence that came with my saw, as it is still in the shipping box.

From what I have read in the past the SS is no guarantee that you will not seriously injure yourself if the worst case happens. But it will help minimize the damage should it be called on to do so. Personally, I try to use push sticks and other means to keep my hands about 12 inches from my table saw blade at all times. Still no guarantee.

Evaluate what is best for you all around. If cost is not an issue, buy the SS. Who would do otherwise. All things considered, why ignore the best protection that is available currently? Again, if cost is no object... For me it was a consideration... I chose the Grizzly...

[Bob Falk]

If it is a consideration, the prices for used Sawstops is high....on par with Festool and Lee Nielsen tools. I buy American where I can, but don't know of any table saw that is made 100% in the US so IMHO its a moot issue. The Grizzley, PM66, Unisaw, General, etc. all cut wood and do it well. For me, the safety feature of the Sawstop trumps all other saws. I've never regretted my Sawstop purchase and my wife is happy that my Unisaw is gone.

[Rich Riddle]

Dok,

I have used every one of the saws you have in question plus many more in military hobby shops and various other locations. I visit the Grizzly showroom and workshop in Pennsylvania a couple times annually. Of the three you mention, the Jet ranks third. I own several Jet tools but never considered their table saws on par with competitors. I would rate the Grizzly a bit higher than the Saw Stop you mention. Inevitably, someone will bring up the safety features. You have to decide if that's worth thousands of dollars over the price of the Grizzly you want.

You might try contacting your local vocational school usually run by either the high school or junior college. They frequently offer evening "enrichment" classes. Here our local college where I teach does it. They scheduled my general education courses in the shop this semester because they ran out of room in the main building. Some schools have very impressive tools including the Grizzly, Jet, or Saw Stop.

[Ralph Butts]

We are better. That simple. Glad your SS meets your standards and you are proud of it but that doesn't change that we do better industrial machining. US manufactures can simply make more profit using cheaper labor. Boeing farmed out parts and the company has taken a huge hit and has had to send home grown machinists to show foreign manufacturers how to machine the parts to the necessary tolerances. Just one large example.

[Keith Hankins]

Well I can speak to the Griz. I've got the 1023slx. I've had it for 10 years give or take. It's a solid saw 3hp and I've cut a lot of stuff with it. I've used it on 12/4" stuff. It passes the nickle test. Too bad you are too far away. I'm getting ready to upgrade to a 5hp sawstop ICS and will be selling mine. The reason is not because of a lacking in the griz, but I want more power and the safety feature means a lot. I've been upclose to a lot of PCS's and it is a quality saw. If you have budget constraints nothing wrong with it. Not in the same class though as the sawstop. It's just not. I'll clarify that I also have the griz 17" BS, 12" jointer, and Horizontal boring machine. Now if you are really budget conscious, go get an old piece of american iron. Those are even cheaper than the griz and they in most cases made better with better materials. So you can see I've got a log of griz, so I'm not anti griz. If you do go griz route, if package arrives damaged at all reject it! If you have any specific questions shoot me an email. Here's a ling to a picture set of a bed I made using the TS on 12/4".

http://flic.kr/s/aHsjDxpcFT

[Dok Yager]

Thanks for all the replies guy`s! I don`t want this to degrade into a US vs the World thread here. I was just trying to see if I could get some different viewpoints on the saws I mentioned. Please no more posts about US vs the World. Try to stay on course here and help a guy out that is trying to make an informed decision. Thanks!!

[Mark Carlson]

Hi Dok,

This is an easy one for me. No offense to the Grizzly or Jet, both fine saws, but the SawStop is the better machine. I'm sure it costs more and if you can swing it get that one. Note: I have a General 650 but would buy a SS if I was going to replace it with another cabinet saw. Maybe I'd get a slider. Not sure on that score.

Good luck with your purchase.

~mark

[Don Morris]

I have the 1023SL and it's a great machine. They didn't have the SS when I bought it. If they did I'd have a SS just because of the safety feature. I'm retired military where they say you end up with lots of gold on your sleeve and little in your pocket. At my age and stage, as really just a serious amateur, we have to watch our budget. So I just can't sell the 1023 and buy the SS, take the loss and justify it when I know that if I'm careful there should be no need. We know all the arguments. For us it boils down to: When you're up to your ass in alligators (need to pay the bills) it's hard to remember the original purpose was to drain the swamp. If I were you, that would be a different story...get the SS. Safety should be first.

[Loren Bengtson]

I remember a poster I saw back in the 1970's. It was an ad for Bell Helmets and read, "If you have a $10 head, buy a $10 helmet. If your head's worth more than that, buy a Bell."

The next helmet I bought was a Bell.

When I was younger I was sure that I'd never crash a motorcycle nor lose a finger to a saw accident. I still have all my fingers, but I can show you some scratches on the motorcycles I've owned.

The Sawstop vs. other brands is not a question that can be answered by comparing costs alone. No other saw does what the Sawstop does. Do you buy collision and comprehensive insurance for your vehicles, or just the liability insurance that's required by law? Do you wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle? Do you leave home thinking that today might be the day that you get to test your insurance company's claim-handling procedures or test the strength of your helmet?

The Sawstop wasn't being made when I bought my Unisaw many years ago, but if it had been I'm sure that I could have justified the several hundred extra dollars if it cost more than other saws. I would consider how many years I am likely to own that saw and how much those extra few hundred bucks might amount to on a monthly basis. I would also consider the fact that I'd have to screw up only ONCE in all those years to wish that I had paid thousands extra to get the Sawstop.

The bottom line is, "You pays your money and you takes your choice." How sure are you that you'll never get your finger into a blade over the next 20-40 years?

Good luck with whichever choice you make.

-- Loren

[Roger Feeley]

Tony, I think SS have always been made in Taiwan. The design is done in Oregon where the inventor lives. Their QC is extremely tight and customer service is excellent. I have no regrets about my ICS.