Advice on finding a metric plough plane

[Ian Tompkins]

Hello! I'm just starting out, and I've found lots of good advice on this forum already just by searching. I have one problem that I have not been able to sort out quite yet, and I need some advice.

I want a plough (plow) plane, specifically to try tongue and groove joinery, and I have a few requirements:

I would prefer everything in my shop to be metric, eventually, so I want a 6mm tongue cutter and a 6mm groove cutter to match a 6mm chisel that I already own.
Gotta have a depth stop. I know some plough planes don't have a depth stop, but I don't quite trust myself that much yet. I have a Stanley 78, and I am positive that it would be useless to me with out the depth stop.
I would prefer a metal plane for the time being, but I'm open to a woody of some sort if it meets my other requirements.
I've got about $100 to spend.


So, here are the options I've explored so far:

Veritas Small Plow Plane
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=57678&cat=1,41182
I love this plane about as much as one can without having used it, but it's obviously out of my budget. PROS: metric cutters readily available, excellent quality, depth stop, metal. CONS: cost!

Stanley No. 50 (or possibly Record 050?)
This seems to be the most viable route, as they are relatively available on eBay for under $100, or around $100 with cutters. My main issue is that I haven't found any metric cutters that definitely fit. I emailed Lee Valley to that end. The rep said their 6mm groove cutter (from the Veritas Small Plow) would likely fit fine, but the 6mm tongue cutter likely would not. If there's a chance that the tongue cutter will work (looks an awful lot like the stock tongue cutters for the #50 to me), then I'd take a chance and order them all. PROS: budget, depth stop, metal, matches my other Stanleys. CONS: No guarantee that I'll be able to use metric cutters.

Mujingfang Rosewood Adjustable Plough Plane
http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2085979/45222/mujingfang-rosewood-adjustable-plough-plane.aspx
I have no aversion to Japanese, Chinese, or Taiwanese style planes (my chisels and saws will likely all be from across the pond!), so this option is really appealing for the price. However, I would have to rig up something for a DIY depth stop, I don't see any tongue cutters available, and I can't find it for sale anywhere with metric cutters, though the Mujingfang website indicates that metric cutters do exist. Woodcraft, for their part, said they cannot supply this plane with metric cutters. PROS: budget. CONS: no metric, no depth stop, not metal but I can live with that.

I've been researching this off and on for a month or two, and I can't quite seem to find exactly what I want without spending $250+ on the Veritas. Is there anything I'm missing? Should I say to hell with the metric requirement and settle on a #50 with imperial cutters? All advice welcome!

[Jim Koepke]

Ian,

Welcome to the Creek. Trying to help with your best path to success is difficult without knowing where you are located on this planet.

One reason is the Record 405 planes often come with metric blades. So that would be the easy solution if you were in Europe.

My guess is you are not in Europe.

The #50 takes blades of the same thickness as a Stanley 45 but they are shorter in length. My solution was to cut a little off of the #45 blades for use in my #50. This may not work for later models with a depth adjustment.

Now the question is for tongue and groove, no one but you will know they are not metric... (really at approximately 6.5mm they could still be metric.) so why bother? Your 6mm blade would work fine with any trimming you might need to perform.

My shop is blended, not by choice but because of the crazy world we have going here in the United States. Some of our automobiles have parts from all over the world and require mixed metric and inch tools to do something as simple as changing the oil.

jtk

[Anthony Moumar]

I have the veritas plough plane with metric cutters and all my chisels are imperial. I've never encountered any problems not having them match in size so I don't see any reason why having imperial blades for the plough plane and metric chisels would cause problems. I've never actually seen the blades for a No 50 beside on the internet but the veritas blades are really short compared to stanley 45 blades. Not sure how the No 50's blades compare but you might have some issues there if you try and use the Veritas cutters.

[Jim Neeley]

Ian,

I don't have a "magic bullet" but have something that MAY help you get started. It's not perfect but...

The difference between the 6mm chisel you're discussing and a 1/4" chisel is approximately 0.015", or 1/64", with the 6mm being slightly smaller. Seasonal expansion and contraction due to changes in humidity can exceed that value. I understand your desire for everything in your shop to be metric but, perhaps until you can get a few more pennies saved up, a 1/4" set may suffice? On the outside chance you needed to use your chisel to clean up the plough groove, with the 6mm being slightly smaller than the cutter, it can still be used in this manner.

Also, the $300 LV metric kit you mentioned above includes 7 "groove-cutters" {1/4", 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 8mm & 10mm) but does not include any tongue cutters.

If I'm reading it correctly the minimum would be small plow ($229), 6mm Tongue Blade ($27.50), 6mm Groove Blade ($16.50) and the wide blade conversion kit ($39.50), totaling (I believe) $314.50. :-/ That seems like a lot to pay to make a hidden joint metric if you have other options but the choice, like the money, is yours. <g>.

Jim in Alaska

Jim

[Judson Green]

You may find that 6mm (or any measurement) is not quit the "standard" you think it should be. In other words just cause the chisel is stamped 6mm (or whatever) doesn't mean it is, or that its the same as another's 6mm. Better to have your chisel undersized.

[Jim Koepke]

As Judson is saying, sizes are often "nominal."

Just like the common 2X4 that is closer to a 1-1/2" by 3-1/2".

jtk

[Ian Tompkins]

Welcome to the Creek. Trying to help with your best path to success is difficult without knowing where you are located on this planet.
jtk

Right! Sorry about that. I'm in Western Kansas, so yes, European planes might be more difficult to come by at a reasonable price. I updated my profile with a location... thought I had already done that. :rolleyes:

Looks like I needed a dose of common sense. I didn't even bother to look at how close 1/4" and 6mm are to one another, as Jim Neeley pointed out. I believe you're all right. My 6 mm chisel will probably work just fine to clean up 1/4" grooves.

I'll probably just hunt down a Stanley #50 with cutters and call it a day.

Thanks, everyone!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I have the Mujingfang plow - I got a good deal on it at the time, I think I got mine from Japan Woodworker; it works well enough when you realize it's limitations, but the arm adjustment wing nuts attach to bent bolts that broke. I've since repaired it. Regardless, the cutters I got weren't really spot on for any size. I've since ground at least one of them to match the plywood I was using once, but I'll measure the others later. I would suggest going a different route, though.

If you keep an eye you can often snag the old Record ploughs for good money and metric cutters are regularly available for them used. I've found good deals on eBay, even after you factor in shipping if you're willing to purchase from England, so I'd keep an eye out there if you go that route.

An email to some of the online used tool sellers (Patrick Leach at supertool, Josh Clarke at Hyperkitten, Lee at The Best Things, etc.) might be worthwhile; many of them often have stuff to sell they haven't posted yet.

For tongue and groove joinery solely, the best deal might be a set of wooden tongue and groove planes. For tongue and groove for like back-panels or something, the size matters less than the parts matching; if you're cutting both with handplanes, a nice matched set of planes works quite well.

For frame-and-panel, I usually rabbet my panels to fit whatever the grooves are, so I'm not overly worried about the size. If you're working with ply, the groove size probably matters more, but I don't often come across ply that's an even anything size in the stuff I use, so having some extra cutters you can grind down is nice. The simple and readily available or easily makeable cutters for old Record and Stanley planes are nice for this.

I believe the LV plough cutters fit the old Stanleys and Records, but I'm uncertain. Worth looking into, but means with an old plane if you find yourself missing some cutters, it's a readily available source if something else doesn't turn up.

[Ian Tompkins]

So, now that I'm searching for a Stanley #50, I see some Record 050 planes as well. The Record looks identical, with the exception that the cutters have a different depth adjustment--a screw rather than a lever. Is this correct? These are essentially the same plane, with a different depth adjustment for the cutters?

Getting a Record 050 will probably mean paying for Royal Post shipping, but that may end up being the best deal in the end. Right now, planes shipped from England appear to be the most complete, which is good if I want a depth guide and a tongue cutter.

[Kees Heiden]

The latest incarnation of the Record 044, the 044C, came with a full set of metric and imperial cutters. Of course, now they aren't all complete anymore, so you would have to choose carefully on the bay. The 044 is a very good and easy to use plowplane.

PS, I realise now that I don't know if it ever came with tongue cutters.

[Jim Koepke]

Getting a Record 050 will probably mean paying for Royal Post shipping, but that may end up being the best deal in the end. Right now, planes shipped from England appear to be the most complete, which is good if I want a depth guide and a tongue cutter.

My Stanley 50 came from an antique mall. No cutters nor depth stop came with it. I made a depth stop out of a 20d nail if my memory is correct. My model is one of the early ones without a blade adjuster.

A blade adjuster is very handy but a plane can be made to work without one.

It is pretty much set up for one function.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

There are metric sets available for the Record #043, which is a small plough with small blades (1/8 - 1/4).

If you are serious about metric, my recommendation would be to make you own blades for a Record #044. These are simple enough to do if you have a Dremel or 4" grinder. You can convert old Stanley #45 blades easily enough (all that is needed is a couple of grooves for the adjuster).

I have not looked in a while, but I recall that the Veritas Small Plow offers metric blades as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Adams]

Stanley 12-250? Metric sizes were available.

[Tom Millington]

My Record 050c came with a wide selection of metric and imperial cutters. The handle is stupidly bad but it was easy enough to make a proper replacement using slightly modified tote template from the Lee Valley web page.

[Ian Tompkins]

Stanley 12-250? Metric sizes were available.

I'd certainly consider that or a 13-050, but it looks like they're no easier to acquire than a Stanley 50, Record 050, or Record 050c. eBay is pretty sparse right now, but a Stanley 50 with cutters seems to be attainable. And at this point, with some sense talked into me, I'd be happy with 1/4" groove and tongue cutters instead of 6mm.

I would even consider an Anant 52, which appears to be based on the Stanley 13-050, if I could find one for a decent price, or at all.

What is it about plough planes that makes them so rare nowadays? :confused:

[Ian Tompkins]

My Record 050c came with a wide selection of metric and imperial cutters. The handle is stupidly bad but it was easy enough to make a proper replacement using slightly modified tote template from the Lee Valley web page.

I would love a Record 050c, but they appear to be available only via UK sellers on eBay, most of whom are not shipping overseas. Any tips on acquiring one stateside?

[Tom Millington]

I would love a Record 050c, but they appear to be available only via UK sellers on eBay, most of whom are not shipping overseas. Any tips on acquiring one stateside?

I got it off eBay 5-6 years ago from a stateside seller. It was like new. Only one of the cutters had been honed.

[Adam Maxwell]

I want a plough (plow) plane, specifically to try tongue and groove joinery, and I have a few requirements:

I would prefer everything in my shop to be metric, eventually, so I want a 6mm tongue cutter and a 6mm groove cutter to match a 6mm chisel that I already own.
Gotta have a depth stop. I know some plough planes don't have a depth stop, but I don't quite trust myself that much yet. I have a Stanley 78, and I am positive that it would be useless to me with out the depth stop.
I would prefer a metal plane for the time being, but I'm open to a woody of some sort if it meets my other requirements.
I've got about $100 to spend.


Why do you want a plough for tongue and groove? The Stanley #48 and/or #49 make it painless to do T&G, and have a depth stop and fence built in. Either should be under $100. They're not metric, but the 5/16" irons on the 48 are ~8 mm wide (though I really don't think this matters…my wooden plough's irons are only approximate in width, and it's not a problem).

[Jim Koepke]

I'd certainly consider that or a 13-050, but it looks like they're no easier to acquire than a Stanley 50, Record 050, or Record 050c. eBay is pretty sparse right now, but a Stanley 50 with cutters seems to be attainable. And at this point, with some sense talked into me, I'd be happy with 1/4" groove and tongue cutters instead of 6mm.

I would even consider an Anant 52, which appears to be based on the Stanley 13-050, if I could find one for a decent price, or at all.

What is it about plough planes that makes them so rare nowadays? :confused:

My tendency would be to pass on the Anant plane. I have no experience with them, but I have seen some of he modern plane shaped objects that some are trying to market to the unsuspecting.

Currently there are some Stanley 45s on ebay at less than $100 at buy it now prices with shipping.

They do not have blades, but those are usually easy to find.

I have not evaluated any of the currently available offerings so it is buyer beware, but it isn't that hard of a task to give them a look see.

Here is a little information on the Stanley 45:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?116419-Planes-and-a-Few-Things-to-Look-For&p=1176704#post1176704

jtk

[Ian Tompkins]

[/LIST]

Why do you want a plough for tongue and groove? The Stanley #48 and/or #49 make it painless to do T&G, and have a depth stop and fence built in. Either should be under $100. They're not metric, but the 5/16" irons on the 48 are ~8 mm wide (though I really don't think this matters…my wooden plough's irons are only approximate in width, and it's not a problem).

Adam, that's a fine idea! I wasn't really aware of those planes before, despite them both preceding the #50 on the Blood and Gore page, which I've used as a reference quite a few times. I like the reversible fence, which allows one cutter to perform both tongue cutting and groove cutting. The only thing I'm unsure about is this bit:

"...it is designed to work stock from 3/4" to 1 1/4" in thickness (the groove centers on stock 7/8")."

So, it appears that the groove and tongue will only be centered on boards that are 7/8" thick, the fence is not adjustable? That simplifies things nicely, but I plan to use this tool in ways that may expose the ends of the boards I join, and I'm not sure the stickler in me can live with an off-center tongue and groove. Also, in general, I like the idea of buying a plane which might do some other jobs in the future as needed, though tongue and groove is the only thing I definitely have in mind for it.

I'll have to do some looking. Maybe there's a plane similar to the #48/#49 that has an adjustable fence?

[Adam Maxwell]

I'll have to do some looking. Maybe there's a plane similar to the #48/#49 that has an adjustable fence?

Not that I'm aware of; traditionally, match planes come in a specific size, and are used ±1/8" of the nominal size. I have a #49, which centers a groove on 1/2" (IIRC), and I mainly use it for 3/8"-ish cabinet backs. A recent acquisition of mine is a pair of wooden 3/8" match planes, and I've long had a pair of wooden 7/8" match planes. These work well, but can be more finicky than the Stanleys.

I'm all in favor of having a plough as a general purpose tool! Although I have the matching irons for my Stanley #45 and #46, I've never actually tried them. As long as you don't have to adjust the fence when swapping irons, it's probably a perfectly adequate solution.

I've wondered about shimming the fence on the Stanley match plane, and I _think_ that would work as long as you added the same thickness shim to both sides of the fence. Maybe someday I'll try that with my spare Franken49 :).

[Chris Vandiver]

Not that I'm aware of; traditionally, match planes come in a specific size, and are used ±1/8" of the nominal size. I have a #49, which centers a groove on 1/2" (IIRC), and I mainly use it for 3/8"-ish cabinet backs. A recent acquisition of mine is a pair of wooden 3/8" match planes, and I've long had a pair of wooden 7/8" match planes. These work well, but can be more finicky than the Stanleys.

I'm all in favor of having a plough as a general purpose tool! Although I have the matching irons for my Stanley #45 and #46, I've never actually tried them. As long as you don't have to adjust the fence when swapping irons, it's probably a perfectly adequate solution.

I've wondered about shimming the fence on the Stanley match plane, and I _think_ that would work as long as you added the same thickness shim to both sides of the fence. Maybe someday I'll try that with my spare Franken49 :).

While it may work to add a piece to both sides of the fence, the #48 and #49 t&g planes have a fixed depth of cut, so are somewhat limited in use(if you're going to use them for other grooving duties besides t&g).

[Adam Maxwell]

While it may work to add a piece to both sides of the fence, the #48 and #49 t&g planes have a fixed depth of cut, so are somewhat limited in use(if you're going to use them for other grooving duties besides t&g).

Of course; the OP was looking for a way to make centered T&G on varying stock widths, and that's where my response was aimed. Using a match plane as a general purpose plough is as silly as using a smoother or jack for scrub duty.