Hand Cut Dovetails - Ugly, but it's a Start

[Rob Russell]

Did I say this is one Ugly D/T joint? I'm a dyed-in-the-wool electron-burner, but I decided that I wouldn't jig up and use a router to cut dovetails. So, with a need for a wedding present this fall, I'm starting work on practicing dovetails for the drawers. This was my first attempt and I made a LOT of mistakes. Next time, these are the things I'll focus on:


Making the marking gauge line clearer and being careful to make sure the chisel is right on the line when I start removing waste. That's one big cause of the gaposis and I thought I was being sort of careful.
Work on something a bit more solid and stable than a sawhorse.
Be a bit more careful about not sawing past the mark line. This wasn't too bad, but it's one more detail.


Well - it's a start. Good thing we learn from our mistakes.

Rob

[Erin Raasch]

Did I say this is one Ugly D/T joint? I'm a dyed-in-the-wool electron-burner, but I decided that I wouldn't jig up and use a router to cut dovetails. So, with a need for a wedding present this fall, I'm starting work on practicing dovetails for the drawers. This was my first attempt and I made a LOT of mistakes. Next time, these are the things I'll focus on:


Making the marking gauge line clearer and being careful to make sure the chisel is right on the line when I start removing waste. That's one big cause of the gaposis and I thought I was being sort of careful.
Work on something a bit more solid and stable than a sawhorse.
Be a bit more careful about not sawing past the mark line. This wasn't too bad, but it's one more detail.


Well - it's a start. Good thing we learn from our mistakes.

Rob

Rob,

Those actually look pretty clean. Maybe the camera is being especially kind, but I don't see any glaring gaps.

Yes, you definitely want something more stable than sawhorses. Nothing worse than having to chase your work across the floor when you're trying to whack the chisel. :D

As far as making sure the chisel is on the gauge line when you start chopping out waste - don't. You want to start with your chisel about 1/16" inside the line. When you whack that chisel, it's going to displace some wood - and if you start right on the line, the wood it displaces will be outside your line. So remove the bulk of the waste by chopping just a little bit inside the line, then come back and with a paring chisel and carefully pare down to the line.

Great start - it's always a joy to see someone taking the time to learn the traditional woodworking skills.

Erin

[John Miliunas]

Hmmmm...Note to self: "Self, try to make your handcut dovetails as "ugly" as Rob's!":rolleyes: If that's your first attempt, Rob, I'd say you're well on your way! I've tried it a couple times, but find myself getting frustrated as I just can't make them fit even close.:mad: I think you're doing great!!!:) :cool:

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Rob, Are you nuts? :) That looks great for a first attempt. You look like a natural at this. It makes me want to start doing hand cut. I can't imagine what you'd do on a good solid bench. Alan in Md.

[Bob Smalser]

Don't be so hard on yerself over cosmetics.

I don't see anything there but some nice, tight joinery about 30 seconds away from perfection with some help from the belt sander.

It all starts out ugly.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7483424/97909266.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7483424/97909701.jpg

Heck....some of it like these oars start out even uglier:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7081299/100386741.jpg


http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7081299/99960843.jpg

[Clay Craig]

Bob,

Does seeing this with all the fittings, and hooked up to a tow hitch, mean the dory is finished? I even see a bow line (or ... sheet maybe, or ... heck, you know, a rope), so I'm presuming it's done - have you posted a set of 'as-completed' pics somewhere and I missed 'em? If not, would you? (No need to hijack Rob's DT thread, and I might miss 'em here anyway.)

I feel like I've seen many parts of this craft, and I'd just like to get a sense of the whole. What's the length, beam, what's it draw, etc.?

And, will you post a couple of 'before' pics of this one if you have 'em, and definitely of the next one before you start in on it? (Or if folks feel that's a bit far astray for this forum, and/or there's a woodenboat site I ought to be sent to to satisfy my curiosity, just let me know and I'll go quietly ...)

Thanks,
Clay

Clay

[Mark Singer]

Those look great!!! Very nice work!

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Hello Rob. Those are not bad first dovetails at all. Plane or sand those down flush and I think you have a pretty decent first set. As always I would recommend that anyone wanting to learn dovetails should watch "basic dovetailing by Rob Cosman" It is sold through Lie-Nielsen. Keep up the good work. Peter

[Richard Gillespie]

Hello Rob,

For a first set they look great. I don't think I would have posted a picture of my first set.

[Bob Smalser]

Bob,
(No need to hijack Rob's DT thread, and I might miss 'em here anyway.)



I'll do a posting when it's done.

Just pointing out that everybody's work starts out ugly, and an eye toward seperating the joinery and the cosmetics develops with experience.

Again....that dovetail joinery is excellent.

[Takeshi Uchida]

Hi Rob
It looks neat. and if it is your first dovetail, you have great talent on joinery making. Way to go.
And fourth point we ought to focus to improve our skill is,,, enjoy joinery making :)

[James Mittlefehldt]

Hello Rob,

For a first set they look great. I don't think I would have posted a picture of my first set.

I won't post a picture of my first set, no way, no how. I do keep it around the woodshop to remind myself how far I have come though.

As to Rob's first attempt well if that is the first I think he should sell his Liegh jig or whatever he uses and stick to handcut.

Erin's advice, given above, is excellent by the way don't start chiseling on the line, start ahead of it and pare the little bit that is left after, it makes for a much cleaner joint.

[Clay Craig]

Rob,
I got distracted by Bob's dory, and forgot to say - those DTs are awfully nice! What about 'em makes you unhappy? Looks like the shoulders are even set back a smidge so that you can plane the end grain smooth, which effort will itself fill some small gaps (aka 'end grain consolidation') - not that I see any here that much need it ...

I'll third the motion not to set your chisel in the line - if the bevel's facing 'out' (toward the rest of the panel) then the bevel will itself crush some fibers beyond the line, and if it's facing 'in' (toward the DTs) its angle will drive your chisel out as it enters the wood, again transgressing on the line.

One thing I remember helping me was (finally) realizing that the chisel does not enter the wood on a line parallel to either the chisel's back or its bevel, but on a line (roughly halfway) between those angles.

Clay

[Rob Russell]

OK - I'll respond to all the comments at once with some followup at the end.



Those actually look pretty clean. Maybe the camera is being especially kind, but I don't see any glaring gaps.

Yes, you definitely want something more stable than sawhorses. Nothing worse than having to chase your work across the floor when you're trying to whack the chisel.

As far as making sure the chisel is on the gauge line when you start chopping out waste - don't. You want to start with your chisel about 1/16" inside the line. When you whack that chisel, it's going to displace some wood - and if you start right on the line, the wood it displaces will be outside your line. So remove the bulk of the waste by chopping just a little bit inside the line, then come back and with a paring chisel and carefully pare down to the line.

I think, based on the pics below, that the camera was especially kind.

In addition to a solid, stable work surface - good light helps too. I was working in the basement at a place I was at for the weekend where there was some natural light from a couple of windows and a couple of bare bulbs. It made it harder to see the lines to saw to.

I'll keep the advice about chisel placement in mind. Same goes to James and Clay who reinforced the comments about chisel placement and paring.



I don't see anything there but some nice, tight joinery about 30 seconds away from perfection with some help from the belt sander.


Perhaps also some glue and sawdust to fill the gaps you can see below ...



As always I would recommend that anyone wanting to learn dovetails should watch "basic dovetailing by Rob Cosman".

I used the article in FWW that compared the Pins First or Tails First methods. I chose the Pins First method as explained and illustrated by Tage Frid.



I won't post a picture of my first set, no way, no how. I do keep it around the woodshop to remind myself how far I have come though.

As to Rob's first attempt well if that is the first I think he should sell his Liegh jig or whatever he uses and stick to handcut.

I may hang on to this as a reminder later off how things started out.

I don't have a router dovetail jig. That's the one thing I refused to buy. I'll plane, rip, shape and all that good stuff with electrons. Dovetails I decided were a thing to learn to do by hand, so I never bought a jig.

OK - I've attached 2 more pics of the dovetails. I think you'll see some gaps in these pics. The end shot that shows really clear gaps, I realized, is partly because the 2 boards weren't square to each other. Squaring up the boards closed the gaps a tad, but certainly not all the way.

I do appreciate all of the positive reinforcement in your posts. There was another nice thing about deciding to do the dovetails by hand - it was an excuse to get a nice d/t sw, marking gauge and scratch awl/marking knife (thx Dave Anderson) to use. Also, because I really don't liek sharpening, I added a sharpening center to my tool collection.

Lastly, as a minor bit of family history, one of my grandfathers was a carpenter and cabinetmaker. I remember working with him in his shop where the first thing I learned to do was sharpen his lignum vitae bench plane. A couple of the pieces of furniture in our house are somewhat rustic style tables and benches I made with him. I appreciate the comment about "enjoying joinery" and expect to enjoy it more in the future.

Rob

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rob....they're not perfect but nobody's first attempt was I'd bet! At least you have the courage to try hand cut dovetails.......not I! Not bad....keep practitising......you're on your way!

[Michael Gabbay]

Rob - If you think those are ugly you should see my first try! :eek: You did great. Now look at what you've done and write down on the piece what you need to do to fix them. Date it and save it. The next ones will be slightly better, you'll just make different mistakes. Don't worry the third try is a charm! :)

Once you get the hang of it it should be easy for you to repeat a nice DT. Also, don't get too hung up on being perfect. Machined joints are close to perfect, hand joints are not.

Mike

[Doug Shepard]

Not bad at all. You could drive a Mack truck through the gaps on my first attempt at handcut DT's. All them electrons seem to be burning your wood pretty good.:D That looks like a bigger problem than anything I can see wrong with your DT's. As long as you're treading the Neander path, why not crosscut the boards with a handsaw?

[Rob Russell]

Not bad at all. You could drive a Mack truck through the gaps on my first attempt at handcut DT's. All them electrons seem to be burning your wood pretty good.:D That looks like a bigger problem than anything I can see wrong with your DT's. As long as you're treading the Neander path, why not crosscut the boards with a handsaw?

I crosscut the boards with a Skilsaw I picked up at a tag sale for $2 and took down to my dad's cottage (which is where I was for the weekend). It still had a plywood blade on it and - for the 1 cut I need to make - I was too lazy to swap a standard combination blade on.

[Jim Becker]

No problem, Rob!! A few end-grain slivers will completely make those small gaps disappear!! Trust me...it works. ;)

[Jerry Olexa]

We are always our own toughest critic! Relax! You did a great job by hand for first time...

[Rick Hoppe]

Rob, very good start on dovetailing! I agree with the above chisel advice and better light. One more thing: make sure you always have the outside of the drawer or box facing you as you saw. And yes, write the date on the workpiece and save it.

[Rob Russell]

Rob, very good start on dovetailing! I agree with the above chisel advice and better light. One more thing: make sure you always have the outside of the drawer or box facing you as you saw. And yes, write the date on the workpiece and save it.

Why saw with the outside facing you - so you can see when you get to the line better?

[Jerry Palmer]

Why saw with the outside facing you - so you can see when you get to the line better?

Part of it is that, that is the side that will be visible and if the other side isn't quite exact, it will be hidden inside. Plus, for me anyway, consistent orientation of the pieces make it easier to not get as confused with the way things are laid out. For instance, doing the pin first, if you always put the piece into the vise the same way, outside facing you, if you mark the tails from the pins while the pin board is in the vise, you'll know to always extend the tail board over the bench and away from you. Much easier access that way for marking, and if you always do it that way, you'll always do the other related tasks the same way.