What rope is best for pulling planes??

[Sean Hughto]

While I've used a plane before a bit, the rope technique highlighted in another thread is new to me. Can anyone share their expertise as to which sort of rope is best for the technique? I've heard hemp, while historically accurate, is a bit more rough on the hands and not as durable over the long term. Nylon is apparently the most friendly to the knob finishes but can be a little slippery. Some apparently like the braided yacht style ropes, and I have even heard of guys who swear by rubber tubing. I'm lost and could really use some help. What thickness, what material, what braiding?

https://www.knotandrope.com/store/pc/home.asp?gclid=CKX5pP6c9bsCFRBnOgod3yMAhA

[Jim Koepke]

Really? The rope is for those who do not know how to do this properly. I thought everyone knew you just set the plane on the workpiece and then lift the end so gravity can do its work.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Maybe try out some of that "para-cord" rope that stores sell as bracelets?

Tilt a board? With my good luck? Plane would just hang a right or left turn and head for the concrete floor like a magnet was down there.

You might want a bit of "give" in the rope, just in case you hit a knot along the way.

[Chris Griggs]

Just make sure its got a nice thick braided structure..one that creates a knurling effect. Without this it will be naer impossible to hold on to.

[steven c newman]

There were "Crown Molder Planes" that were quite wide. The Master would guide it along, but a "helper" had to pull the plane along with a rope.

[Tom Vanzant]

If you need a rope, maybe you need to hone the iron. Ron Brese pulled a much heavier plane with a string.

[Leigh Betsch]

Plane old rope

[Garrett Ellis]

If you need a rope, maybe you need to hone the iron. Ron Brese pulled a much heavier plane with a string.

Yeah but he cheated. Had an entire pulley system set up off camera. Can't believe everything you see on the internet you know.

[Chris Vandiver]

If you're really good, just use the shaving, as it comes out of the plane, to pull it along!

[paul cottingham]

Since it is in the plane's nature to plane, I just place it on the board, and let it follow its nature.
Of course, it needs to be very sharp indeed.

[Ryan Mooney]

I've heard hemp, while historically accurate, is a bit more rough on the hands and not as durable over the long term.

This is largely a problem with modern "hemp" rope not actually being "hemp" rope. Most "hemp" rope sold nowadays is actually "manila hemp" which isn't "hemp" at all (its actually fiber from a banana relative but its sold as manila "hemp") and is indeed rough on the hands and relatively poor wearing.

True hemp rope - which is dang hard to find - varies somewhat in its qualities. The hemp bast fiber when well treated is somewhat close to linen (flax) fiber in qualities, in that its a long strand, tough and relatively smooth fiber. It is somewhat subject to rot but if kept dry (or as they used to do on sailing ships - tarred, which would be perhaps undesirable for in the shop) it lasts and wears quite well. If its coarsely "extracted" (the actual process of getting hemp and linen is similar and involves "retting" - rotting - the stalks and then breaking them and working the strands to clean the fibers) can be somewhat coarse, I suspect that a lot of the older rope class material fell into this. Well extracted hemp is close to as fine as linen and behaves similarly (stiff until broken in, but soft in the hand after that).

Real hemp would stand up to a ridiculous amount of use for this class. I had a (real) hemp lariat rope as a kid and it stood up to roping and dragging a whole lot of calves to the fire, I can't imagine that you'd ever put that much wear on a rope.

Nylon is somewhat silky smooth. It is pretty stretchy though, since we're noodling on apparent irrelevancies in general think of all the wasted energy in stretching the rope 3-4" during the pull. The horror.

All braided ropes will generally be smoother and have less stretch than twisted (all else being equal).

More strands are smoother and stronger (again..)

None of this really matters.

If you want to try pulling with a rope - find one about the right size so its not going to either wear to much on the plane (to thin) or pop off (to thick) and that feels good on your hands and use it. If the "right size" is to small (which I suspect will be true), then back braid it on the section you use for pulling so its easier to get a grip on it, or splice it into a thicker rope for that part or attach it to a harness of some sort (I think that that was somewhat common for pulling some moulding planes anyway).

What I really want to know is where you're getting an apprentice to ride on the plane (personally I'd rather ride the plane and have the apprentice pull it which is a sure sign of approaching senescence I suppose). Maybe a remote controlled electric winch would be the modern replacement so you could operate it while resting upon the plan yourself. If you do that we want videos.

[Chris Vandiver]

Plane old rope


The best response so far!

[Kees Heiden]

Thank you Ryan! Entertaining bit about hemp rope.

Back in the thirties when Alpine climbers would scale difficult, big, fearsome clifs like the Eiger Nordwand in Switserland, they only had a hemp cord, tight around the waste. Falling wasn't really an option back then, the hemp would break if the shock was too much. The introduction of nylon to the climbing world has been the most important safety advancement ever.

[Rick Markham]

Yeah but he cheated. Had an entire pulley system set up off camera. Can't believe everything you see on the internet you know.

Can't believe everyone on the internet either :rolleyes:... Just FYI, it was Jameel Abraham with Ron Brese's Stainless Panel Plane, there was no cheating, it is clear as day that the string is tied in a knot. Watch the video...:p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c0d2ASiycg

Heck, I'll go one further. I have pushed that very plane in the video on 2" rock maple, it really is that easy. Brese makes some sick handplanes.

[Warren Mickley]

When Jameel's video surfaced on another forum some years ago I tried it myself that evening. The next day Wilbur Pan asked on the forum if anyone else had tried it. I replied that I had done it with a Record plane and gave a few tips on how to perform the stunt. Then a guy named Bob Zajicek wrote in suggesting I was not telling the truth. Apparently he thought only a Brese plane could do the trick.

[Pat Barry]

Sean, the rope needs to be sized properly to the task at hand. For example, planing balsa or basswood, with the grain, probably just ordinary kitchen twine, use too heavy a strand and you will lose touch with your work. On the other hand, with hickory, you may need to resort to a steel cable, 1/4" for example. Also, keep in mind that the lower on the knob you can place the rope will lower the 'centre of effort'. We may need to turn our knobs to create a rope groove, much lower than the present reduced diameter.

[george wilson]

I made a 6"
wide crown and bed molding planes for the housewrights in the museum when they were building a building completely by hand. They just used ordinary old rope as they could not find real hemp at the time. The planes had a dowel on each side so someone could assist by pulling. I made the irons too. They planed 130' of molding without re sharpening,they said.

The "This Old House" guy(what's his name?) was visiting one time. They cautiously let him handle the plane. He is well known off camera for just carelessly tossing things down after he looks at them. Another "Hollywood" woodworker. I don't know how they do it. Somehow he was cautioned to be careful.

Perhaps some plane makers could be induced to produce planes with mini "tow hooks" down low on the plane's body for attaching the requisite towing cable.:)

[David Weaver]

I personally like a tow bar. I don't like any flex in my remote controlled wood show tricks.

[David Weaver]

I replied that I had done it with a Record plane and gave a few tips on how to perform the stunt.

It worked with several planes for me, too. And I realized it was a wood show trick. Some of the vendors get offended if you claim that any other vendor's tricks are just party tricks. It's happened to me, too (getting lectured for contesting something a vendor put up - with the lecture coming from another vendor who is in the woodshow club).

No slight to Ron Brese intended by any of the above, it definitely wasn't Ron, and Ron was more than helpful when I was building a single iron infill.

[george wilson]

Give a man enough rope and he'll pull his plane.

[george wilson]

Teach a man how to pull his plane,and he will let you do all the work.

Make a man pull his own plane and he will soon tire of it and stop messing around and go figure out how to make a living.

Wait,somehow this isn't working out right.

[Brian Ashton]

While I've used a plane before a bit, the rope technique highlighted in another thread is new to me. Can anyone share their expertise as to which sort of rope is best for the technique? I've heard hemp, while historically accurate, is a bit more rough on the hands and not as durable over the long term. Nylon is apparently the most friendly to the knob finishes but can be a little slippery. Some apparently like the braided yacht style ropes, and I have even heard of guys who swear by rubber tubing. I'm lost and could really use some help. What thickness, what material, what braiding?

https://www.knotandrope.com/store/pc/home.asp?gclid=CKX5pP6c9bsCFRBnOgod3yMAhA


Na, you got it all wrong. It's horse hair, but only from the subspecies of horse call the unicorn. Apparently this hair also cures gout and cancer and when wrapped around your wrist will stop you smoking. Also when draped over your lovely wife's shoulders she will find you handsome again...

I think I'm gonna try that plane pulling trick with my makita power planer. Will let you know how it turns out after I'm released from the hospital

[Brian Ashton]

Can't believe everyone on the internet either :rolleyes:... Just FYI, it was Jameel Abraham with Ron Brese's Stainless Panel Plane, there was no cheating, it is clear as day that the string is tied in a knot. Watch the video...:p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c0d2ASiycg

Heck, I'll go one further. I have pushed that very plane in the video on 2" rock maple, it really is that easy. Brese makes some sick handplanes.
Ya!! But can he use the plane with his hands tied behind his back with that piece of string… That's what I want to know.

[Kees Heiden]

http://www.joynerplanemaker.org/Cornice_Plane_in_Action.JPG

[george wilson]

Those guys need to not pull uphill.

[David Weaver]

I have a WARN winch for when the hand tool work gets really heavy.

And hip boots for other situations where the poo gets too deep.

[Joe Tilson]

This method is called Rope-A-Dope.

[harry strasil]

Oh Boy, look at all the fire starter for the smithy's forge on the ground!

It is my understanding that in a WWing plant that specialized in large mouldings, and had a waterwheel or steam engine for power, that they would wrap the rope around one of the axles that powered the line shafts and use it like a cat head for pulling large planes easily.

[Kees Heiden]

But how would they detach the rope at the end of the planing stroke? It wouldn't do to slam the plane into the steam engine.

[harry strasil]

Its obvious that you have never seen a cat head in use? Its a friction drive, when you pull on the end that's wrapped several times around the shaft it grabs and thus does the work, quit pulling and it stops, no friction to grab the shaft. In the old days before fully mounted carnival rides, that's how the Ferris Wheels were assembled and disassembled. Its also used on oil well drilling rigs.

[Kees Heiden]

Indeed, that's new for me!

I can see how it starts, pull the plane back a bit and the rope gets tight around the shaft and starts winching. But how do you stop? Dropping the plane on the floor? Or is the end of the resistance of the plane stroke enough to release the tension on the rope?

[phil harold]

Hemp is required on Colorado planes

[harry strasil]

the fellow with the end of the rope puts tension on the rope and the friction grabs the rope and pulls the plane, to stop the fellow with the end of the rope slacks offf and the shaft or cat head spins inside the rope turns which lets the plane handler move back to the starting point and it repeated till the correct size is achieved. there is a picture of the process in one of the older WWing books, not sure which one tho.

[Bill Houghton]

The related question is where you get a teenage apprentice to pull the rope.

[Michael Mahan]

The related question is where you get a teenage apprentice to pull the rope.Tell him your gonna send him on Colorado Vacation if they help !

[Kees Heiden]

Thank you Harry, I understand now.

[Judson Green]

Its obvious that you have never seen a cat head in use? Its a friction drive, when you pull on the end that's wrapped several times around the shaft it grabs and thus does the work, quit pulling and it stops, no friction to grab the shaft. In the old days before fully mounted carnival rides, that's how the Ferris Wheels were assembled and disassembled. Its also used on oil well drilling rigs.


In the sailing world its called a capstan winch.

[Maurice Ungaro]

I hear that Lie-Nielsen has developed a special blended artisinal rope for this purpose. I'm going to the Raleigh Tool event next week - hopefully they can demo it there!

[Dave Anderson NH]

The largest plane I've seen cut an 8" wide swath. It was about 2 feet ling and about 10" wide overall. It was built for the USS Ranger Foundation to plane deck boards for the planned building of a replica of John Paul Jone's ship. It weight about 80 pounds and was rolled around on a modified shipping hand cart. They used 3 strand laid nylon line 7/16" diameter. This was donated by Plymouth cordage back in the day they still made "Goldline" and were located in Plymouth MA.

[Ryan Mooney]

Na, you got it all wrong. It's horse hair

Ah horse hair. I've been on the twisting end (I was the unmotivated force unwittingly motivated into motivating the motion of the twister) of a whole lot of horse hair ropes as a young whipper snapper. Mane hair is much much softer, but also a shorter staple and thus not nearly as strong as tail hair. Tail hair on the other hand has the prickly advantage of being a superlative snake barrier when placed in a circle around your bedroll on the high prairies lessening the probability you'll wake up with a little buddy with a rattle coiled up next to you. It does little to deter the crawlier forms of critters though so make sure you still shake out your boots in the morning.

It is strong enough that we used to tuck a long (25-30') coil of it into our belts that was the long end of the fiador rope on the hackamore when riding less-than-broke colts out and about. That way if you got thrown off into the toolieweeds you had a chance of getting a hold of it and pulling them around and not having to walk the several miles back to the ranch.

I don't believe it would make a very good tow rope for hand planes for a number of reasons I will forebear to bore you with here.

[Adam Cruea]

I made a 6"
wide crown and bed molding planes for the housewrights in the museum when they were building a building completely by hand. They just used ordinary old rope as they could not find real hemp at the time. The planes had a dowel on each side so someone could assist by pulling. I made the irons too. They planed 130' of molding without re sharpening,they said.

The "This Old House" guy(what's his name?) was visiting one time. They cautiously let him handle the plane. He is well known off camera for just carelessly tossing things down after he looks at them. Another "Hollywood" woodworker. I don't know how they do it. Somehow he was cautioned to be careful.

Perhaps some plane makers could be induced to produce planes with mini "tow hooks" down low on the plane's body for attaching the requisite towing cable.:)

Bob Vila? Norm Abram?

[george wilson]

Bob Vila,thanks for the jog.

[Brian Ashton]

Ah horse hair. I've been on the twisting end (I was the unmotivated force unwittingly motivated into motivating the motion of the twister) of a whole lot of horse hair ropes as a young whipper snapper. Mane hair is much much softer, but also a shorter staple and thus not nearly as strong as tail hair. Tail hair on the other hand has the prickly advantage of being a superlative snake barrier when placed in a circle around your bedroll on the high prairies lessening the probability you'll wake up with a little buddy with a rattle coiled up next to you. It does little to deter the crawlier forms of critters though so make sure you still shake out your boots in the morning.

It is strong enough that we used to tuck a long (25-30') coil of it into our belts that was the long end of the fiador rope on the hackamore when riding less-than-broke colts out and about. That way if you got thrown off into the toolieweeds you had a chance of getting a hold of it and pulling them around and not having to walk the several miles back to the ranch.

I don't believe it would make a very good tow rope for hand planes for a number of reasons I will forebear to bore you with here.

Ah but you see that's where you went wrong - you need the hair from the unicorn.

[Gary Viggers]

I hear that Lie-Nielsen has developed a special blended artisinal rope for this purpose. I'm going to the Raleigh Tool event next week - hopefully they can demo it there!

I'd put off buying it if I was you. Lee Valley is coming out with one and it will be sold at a low introductory price.

[Rick Markham]

Ah horse hair. I've been on the twisting end (I was the unmotivated force unwittingly motivated into motivating the motion of the twister) of a whole lot of horse hair ropes as a young whipper snapper. Mane hair is much much softer, but also a shorter staple and thus not nearly as strong as tail hair. Tail hair on the other hand has the prickly advantage of being a superlative snake barrier when placed in a circle around your bedroll on the high prairies lessening the probability you'll wake up with a little buddy with a rattle coiled up next to you. It does little to deter the crawlier forms of critters though so make sure you still shake out your boots in the morning.

It is strong enough that we used to tuck a long (25-30') coil of it into our belts that was the long end of the fiador rope on the hackamore when riding less-than-broke colts out and about. That way if you got thrown off into the toolieweeds you had a chance of getting a hold of it and pulling them around and not having to walk the several miles back to the ranch.

I don't believe it would make a very good tow rope for hand planes for a number of reasons I will forebear to bore you with here.

My ten gallon hat is off to you sir! :D

Ha! Toolieweeds

[Phil Thien]

Wt heck are you guys talking about? I tried googling pulling planes with rope but I'm coming up with nothing.

Link to a video anyone?

[David Weaver]

Wt heck are you guys talking about? I tried googling pulling planes with rope but I'm coming up with nothing.

Link to a video anyone?

In this thread.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?212451-Playing-with-planes

[Leigh Betsch]

Rope pulling has got to be cheating. What next a line shaft then a motor!

[Rick Markham]

Rope pulling has got to be cheating. What next a line shaft then a motor!

Psh... someone will go and do something stoopid like make a machine that doesn't need a rope! :eek::rolleyes::D

[David M Anderson]

Rope..?
I'd invest in some pillows to surround my bench first.

[Maurice Ungaro]

I'd put off buying it if I was you. Lee Valley is coming out with one and it will be sold at a low introductory price.

Gary, I never said I'd PAY LN prices! I always wait for Rob to push out an introductory offer on their version!

[John Coloccia]

All I can find at the local antique stores around here is twine. Do you think twine would work? I'll betcha' that if I had enough twine, I could turn it into rope.

[george wilson]

HF sells twine. I like it because it looks very antique. Dark,brownish color. Looks like twine you could have purchased 200 years ago.

[Chris Griggs]

As a followup to his hickory bark chair seat video (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/dvds/hickory-bark-from-tree-to-chair-weaving-hickory-bark-seats/) I believe Brian Boggs is currently working with LN on a video demonstrating how to make hickory bark plane pulling ropes. John, perhaps you should wait for the video's release and try your hand at making your own.

[Zach Dillinger]

I can't belief no one made the obvious "whatever they use in Japan" joke...

[John Coloccia]

I can't belief no one made the obvious "whatever they use in Japan" joke...

In Japan, they don't use rope. They tried but it's awfully hard to get anywhere pushing on a rope.

[Chris Griggs]

In Japan, they don't use rope. They tried but it's awfully hard to get anywhere pushing on a rope.

:D:D:D This makes me happy!

[paul cottingham]

In Japan, they don't use rope. They tried but it's awfully hard to get anywhere pushing on a rope.
And with that comment, my friend, you win the Internet!

[Ryan Mooney]

All I can find at the local antique stores around here is twine. Do you think twine would work? I'll betcha' that if I had enough twine, I could turn it into rope.

I KNOW if you have enough twine you can turn it into rope. Not that hard even.

[harry strasil]

I'm SORRY, but I have to say it. Is this one of those threads that should never have happened! Or has CABIN FEVER gotten to some.

[Chris Parks]

Lee Valley will introduce their version in early April.

[Tom Vanzant]

Lee Valley will introduce their version in early April.

Will it be in Imperial or metric sizes?

[Ryan Mooney]

On a vaguely more serious note, the underlying question of when you hit a point where can't physically push/pull a plane in the normal fashion is perhaps interesting. My physics lessons are old and rusty but it seems like the resistance would be something like a function of the linear size of the cutter (I say linear to account for the increased cutting surface of say a molding plane) and the depth of cut (assuming equivalent sharpness and cutting angle, although I could perhaps see increased cutting angles for lower tear out for some uses causing increased resistance as well).

I don't know if the function is itself linear or not, but I suspect not.

So a follow on question would be:
- have you ever had a plane so wide taking a cut so deep you couldn't reasonably push/pull it? If so in what circumstances did this occur?

[Maurice Ungaro]

On a vaguely more serious note, the underlying question of when you hit a point where can't physically push/pull a plane in the normal fashion is perhaps interesting. My physics lessons are old and rusty but it seems like the resistance would be something like a function of the linear size of the cutter (I say linear to account for the increased cutting surface of say a molding plane) and the depth of cut (assuming equivalent sharpness and cutting angle, although I could perhaps see increased cutting angles for lower tear out for some uses causing increased resistance as well).

I don't know if the function is itself linear or not, but I suspect not.

So a follow on question would be:
- have you ever had a plane so wide taking a cut so deep you couldn't reasonably push/pull it? If so in what circumstances did this occur?

Ryan, actually, this is the case with large crown moulding planes. Earlier in this thread, someone posted an image of colonial reanactors/craftsmen using a rope to pull a plane (albeit, as George noted, you don't want to pull it "uphill" - note that the attitude of the rope was not level). I'm sure George, or Roy Underhill could elaborate on the subeject much better than I can.

[george wilson]

As I mentioned,I made a 6" wide molding plane for the housewrights when they were building a large,2 story kitchen house behind a house in the Historic Area. It had a dowel sticking out of each side near the front of the plane. This plane was pushed and towed along to gut crown and bed moldings four the kitchen,as would have been an original plane of that width.

[Kees Heiden]

On a vaguely more serious note, the underlying question of when you hit a point where can't physically push/pull a plane in the normal fashion is perhaps interesting. My physics lessons are old and rusty but it seems like the resistance would be something like a function of the linear size of the cutter (I say linear to account for the increased cutting surface of say a molding plane) and the depth of cut (assuming equivalent sharpness and cutting angle, although I could perhaps see increased cutting angles for lower tear out for some uses causing increased resistance as well).

I don't know if the function is itself linear or not, but I suspect not.

So a follow on question would be:
- have you ever had a plane so wide taking a cut so deep you couldn't reasonably push/pull it? If so in what circumstances did this occur?

The force needed to push (or pull) a cutting knife through the wood has been researched a lot. And indeed, the horizontal force is more or less linearly dependent on shaving thickness and width. It also depends on the wood density and moisture content. The grain direction also has a large influence. Just as the cutting angle. Speed doesn't have much effect on the force.

Here is an interesting graph of the force versus the cutting depth for various cutting angles. Which brings me to a question. Is there anyone with access to the original research paper from Walker and Goodman, 1960, "Experiments in rectilinear cutting"? I would be very interested to read it.

http://www.amgron.clara.net/sciencereport16.html

[Zach Dillinger]

As I mentioned,I made a 6" wide molding plane for the housewrights when they were building a large,2 story kitchen house behind a house in the Historic Area. It had a dowel sticking out of each side near the front of the plane. This plane was pushed and towed along to gut crown and bed moldings four the kitchen,as would have been an original plane of that width.

I've seen that plane George. They had it on display in the joiner's shop when I was there back in 2010. They also had one of Roy's sitting out as well.

Yours is the one sitting on the bench at the right center of this photo.

279854

And here's Roy's plane... note the hole for the dowel / tow rope.

279855

[Maurice Ungaro]

Zach, thanks for posted those photos. I had seen the one at the Joiner's Shop last month, and have also seen Roy's.