Pro Question, Trestle table

[Larry Edgerton]

I have to meet with a customer tomorrow about a table she wants built. Trestle table, 6' overall top, very heavy solid base with no footwell. I played with it and I do not like the design, but the customer is an architect, so you see my dilemma. I do not want to insult, but I also do not want to build an expensive table that does not work.

Without telling you what I am thinking, what do you consider a comfortable overhang at the ends for an adult? They have four kids that they expect to sit on the sides, adults on the ends. And of course the kids are not going to be small forever. Give me you're thoughts if you would.

I may throw a changeable prototype together using the general consensious here and her drawing that she can use for a couple of weeks to make sure it is what she wants.

Gotta run......

Larry

[Peter Quinn]

Client management is the trickiest part of this business. If you have a sense that she is open to considering your suggestion that her design doesn't work I'd make the attempt, offer to mock it up quick full scale in MDF or such? Or SPF quickly joined. I'm designing a small table for my toughest client.....my wife....I've been pouring over every detail of every basic table form for several months now, and some designs just don't work, some you lose seating at the ends, some more classic designs are just perfect but don't feel original or current. With your level of experience I hope she is inclined to trust your instincts!

I've built a few things over the years I felt were plain stupid, design was terrible, some highly accredited idiot with inability to edit and ego to spare was behind the process....at work I proceed with mouth shut and collect my pay check. A few times my observations proved correct as I learned on the remake.... Nothing is more fun than fixing a problem for a client that could have been avoided in the initial construction with good communication. It's a lose lose. So I would diplomatically broach the subject at least.

[Tony Joyce]

what do you consider a comfortable overhang at the ends for an adult?

I would say the recommended minimum is 12".

Tony

[johnny means]

I politely voice my professional opinion. Then I shut up and do as I'm told. BTW, emailing your opinion makes a nice permanent record.

[Jim Foster]

I have a custom made trestle table with a 12" overhang over each end. It works fine. Less and it probably would not work. Your customer is an architect, she should know this stuff.

One other thought, I wanted ours to be a one piece table for rigidity. It's very heavy and difficult to move. If I could do it over again, I'd make it a true knock down table.

[David Gutierrez]

is it their design? if they are telling you to execute a design they have created then I would bring it up as a functional issue. if you get push back then build the piece as they want. All you can do is give them the benefit of your expertise if they disagree build what they asked for.

[Mark Bolton]

We just built one with 20" at the ends and I feel like its plenty comfortable. 12" isnt even close in my opinion but this table was 14' long to seat 14-16 people. Of course you've got to be dealing with a top that can support 20".

[Peter Quinn]

Realized i never answered the actual question, I'm thinking 10" is a bare minimum, for taller people with larger legs, 12-15 would be more appealing. A slighter overhang would work at a casual table wher people don't really push the chair all the way in, like a breakfast spot in a kitchen or such.

[Sam Murdoch]

We just built one with 20" at the ends and I feel like its plenty comfortable. 12" isnt even close in my opinion but this table was 14' long to seat 14-16 people. Of course you've got to be dealing with a top that can support 20".

+ 1 to Mark's comment and if it's permissible you could actually build a frame (in effect an apron 4" +/- tall that can be set within 6" of the top edge no matter what the over hang from the base. This "apron" is what the top is floated to while a few cross members properly placed allow the top and apron to be secured to the base as a unit.

[Mark Bolton]

I politely voice my professional opinion. Then I shut up and do as I'm told. BTW, emailing your opinion makes a nice permanent record.

Johnny,
Thats great to an extent, and it will likley get the bills paid which is often the only aim.

I often times think I have been very lucky but I really dont think luck has to do with it. I have never met a customer that wouldnt open up to reason, its not to say there isnt some compromise.

[Mark Bolton]

Realized i never answered the actual question, I'm thinking 10" is a bare minimum, for taller people with larger legs, 12-15 would be more appealing. A slighter overhang would work at a casual table wher people don't really push the chair all the way in, like a breakfast spot in a kitchen or such.

Not to sound off Peter but, are you serious? Have you sat at a centrally supported table (leg in the center) with a 12" overhang? Or better yet a 10"?! I honestly dont know that its possible.

Just for the heck of it I slide cardboard box under my desk and choked my desk off to about 12" and all I can say is it'd be a dinner where I wouldnt eat much.. :)

Maybe I'm interpreting the trestle and central support differently but hang a 12" board off the wall and sit down to eat. It aint gonna be fun.

[Jeff Duncan]

The problem as I see it is it's only a 6' top. If you try to leave 20" at the ends the base is going to look awful strange IMHO:o I think I'd play around with the design on paper first to see how it looks. I'm guessing 14" - 16" at the ends is roughly where you want to be. I don;t do much furniture but I did a trestle table a few years back roughly that size. I'll see if I can dig up any details of it this weekend.

good luck,
JeffD

[Larry Edgerton]

The problem as I see it is it's only a 6' top. If you try to leave 20" at the ends the base is going to look awful strange IMHO:o I think I'd play around with the design on paper first to see how it looks. I'm guessing 14" - 16" at the ends is roughly where you want to be. I don;t do much furniture but I did a trestle table a few years back roughly that size. I'll see if I can dig up any details of it this weekend.

good luck,
JeffD

Bingo!

I like to see at least 14", preferably 16", [size 12 feet]and with that it throws the whole look out of whack. Minus the 4" for the legs it only leaves 40" of space for the two occupants on the side, which to me, admitedly a claustrophobic, a little uncomfortable.

I just wanted some different perspectives before I meet with them at my house tomorrow. I had to run and pick up my mom from the hospital after the OP and it gave me time to think about my approach. I can't afford to lose a house job because of a table so I am just going to build what they want. I do however have a 42"x8' slab of Jatoba that I may use to get the table length longer. I'll just refuse to cut it shorter than 7'6". If they like it the table will have to be longer or we will have to find a different piece of wood.

As usual, thank you for all the helpful replies gentlemen.

Larry

[Pat Barry]

You are dealing with an architect and the architect told you what they want, then just do it. Do it well and you will get repeat business, show them up and you will feel like you were right but that will be the last job you do for them. 2nd thought - OK - make one very polite inquiry about your concern and thats it.

[Stephen Cherry]

This is why I don't like trestle tables. I have looked at it quite a bit, and for a normal, 4 leg table, 36" by 60" is the best size if you want to make the table small. It's great for for 6 friends, but it can't work for a trestle table.

In my opinion, a trestle table wants to be at least 6 feet, and preferably longer, for comfort. Even 6' 6" gives you something like 4 feet between the trestles, and a little over a foot on each of the ends for some legroom. If it has to be short, having an area for toes under each trestle would help quite a bit (a Maloof style trestle, rather than a trestle on a plinth).

[Jeff Duncan]

Ok I found a couple pics, but I don't have dimensions….so not as much help:o I believe this one was roughly 6' long though and maybe 30" wide. It was made a specific size to replace a table in an alcove.
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_0502.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_0502.jpg.html)

Looking at the pic of the bottom I'm going to guess it's roughly 14" or so overhang. I think I layed it out by eye before cutting the stretcher to length.
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_0500.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_0500.jpg.html)

Nothing fancy of course, but I figure it didn't come out half bad for a hack like me;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Doug Herzberg]

I was just looking at a nice one today. the overhang was 11-1/2" and very comfortable. I was thinking about building a copy of it at about 60" length and contemplating whether it could ever seat 6, even for drinks. The set I looked at had a bench for one side, which I think might seat two people, but they might have to straddle the legs of the table.

The one I saw was 74" in length and seated 6 in a pinch, but it came with a 20" leaf to bring the total length to 94," much better for 6 people.

[Brian W Smith]

Got a build this month for a pro artist.It's a modular shelf design for vinyl LP's.It was a little dicey on the first meeting.....I sort of knew what to expect and made some conscious decisions beforehand.Started the meeting stating that I really didn't care what he designed.....but there are certain joinery "rules" that I would be following,no discussion.Then gave a short statement regarding proportioning.....and then cut him loose to describe the pce he was envisioning.

Just sayin,a little preemptive advice/cautions/mission statements go a long way for the craftsman,builder when first starting projects with professionals(architects,artists,int designers,etc).

[Jim Matthews]

Not my style, but would a "Crane's foot" base provide sufficient clearance for knees at the ends?

If I'm doing the math correctly, the front chair rail will reach the leg at any table overhang less than 12".
Has the architect Sketched this with seated figures shown, to illustrate clearances?

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[Matt Day]

I built an 8' long tressel table and have a 16" overhang. I'm 6'1" and fit very comfortably even belly up to it. My knees don't touch by a couple inches but you have to account for foot room too. Even with this overhang my toes touch the bottom of the "I", so it's comfortable to put my feet on top of it.

I've worked with many architects as a GC and they should know all these dimensions, or can easily reference them.

If I were you and was concerned about it, I would mock up one end of the design, basically the overhand and one leg. Architects LOVE mock ups!

[Sam Murdoch]

Nothing fancy of course, but I figure it didn't come out half bad for a hack like me;)

good luck,
JeffD

We should all be such "hacks".

[Mike Cutler]

Larry
I am right now sitting at the trestle table, actually our center island, I built in my kitchen. It is based on the Limbert Turtle library desk.
The top is a 72"x40" granite slab, and the ends are "turtle back" shaped. The over hang on both ends is 12" to the top of the arc.
I am 6'3", 220lbs, with a 36" inseam and size 12 feet, and I have no problems sitting and eating at the ends of this surface. The ends have corbels built in to support the granite. The base is very stout, built entirely of Padauk. The outside edge is 15" to the cooktop on one side and can seat two adults. Without the cooktop 8 adults could easily sit at this table. (It was designed for 4 though.)
Integrated into this surface is a 36"x 20" Viking gas cooktop. and a 37"x20" undercounter drawer.

Pic's, hopefully, from construction.

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[G Douglas Fowler]

Larry,

My trestle with draw leaf is 74" with 11" overhang. When extended, the overhang is 25". I'm 6'1" and find that the overhang is sufficient without extending the leaf.
Doug

[Mark Bolton]

Larry,

My trestle with draw leaf is 74" with 11" overhang. When extended, the overhang is 25". I'm 6'1" and find that the overhang is sufficient without extending the leaf.
Doug

That style base makes great accommodation for peoples feet sitting at the ends of the table. Without question, a 12" allowance for a mid thigh to the knee for tall man seated is acceptable though could likely be tight for some. A 6'+ man generally measures 12" from the bottom of his pants pocket to the tip of the knee, maybe slightly less. I personally measure dead at 12".

What I find is the 11-12" dimension makes no accommodation for the individuals feet. As I mentioned earlier, take some shelf brackets and attach a 12" scrap to the wall and sit there. Its not doable for any style of seating. You have to cant your lower legs back and turn/tuck your feet. Larry is of course facilitating someone else's design but the way I see it when Im making tables for sale we need to accommodate any seating style. Full belly, leaned back, feet and legs out, is what comes to my mind. Tough to do with a short table and not a design like yours.

In any mock up we've ever done if your trying to seat a 6'+ individual 14-16" seems to be the dead minimum for "normal" seating, table, desk, etc., if there is no foot well. Im talking someone sitting at a dinning chair with their lower leg vertical and feet pointing straight in front of them.

Of course we can say anything we want, that many people tuck their feet below the chair, many people lean forward while eating, and so on.

We all tend to make "allowances" for something we built/designed that a paying customer will not be so forgiving of. Of course covering all this with a client where this table is part of a much bigger picture...

On this recent table before it left the shop we slid the top back choking the overhang and anything below 14" I had to make adjustments in a normal seating position to sit at the table. But the base design didnt allow in any way for feet.

[keith micinski]

If you need the job and the money to get by then you have to voice your concerns and do as the customer wants. Otherwise I try not to take on projects that are in direct conflict with my views. It leads to me having a bad attitude and being less creative throughout the project. Especially when there is a problem that crops up with the project, which as near as I can tell happens on every project:D, and you need to come up with solutions to fix it. I am not sure how anyone with any design experience could think no overhang at all is really a feasible option. Part of design also includes finding ways to get around real world problems not just aesthetics.

[Jim Foster]

I thought it might make sense to add a picture of the trestle table I mentioned earlier. I mentioned I have a trestle table with a 12" overhang and it sits me, 5'10" and not thin, very spaciously. One thing to consider with foot room; When eating, a person is sitting up with their feet fairly normal to the floor, so the space required under the edge of the table is not that demanding (12" seems more than fine). When relaxing around a table is when I notice the feet tend to be more spread out under the table, however the limitation of the 12" overhang of our table has never seemed to be an inconvenience in this case either. Also, the arms of the chair shown fit under the table, even though they might look high in the picture

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[Matt Meiser]

I'm not a pro woodworker but the issue of what the client wants vs what is the "right" way to do something comes up all the time in my field. My advise is explain your concerns in an educational way ("usually what we'd do is....", "what I've typically seen is...", "in the past when I've done it that way...") More often than not the client isn't demanding an approach, what they are conveying is just the way they envision something working and they are grateful for my expertise--after all, that is usually the reason they hired us to start. When there's still insistence it depends...if they are asking us to do something I believe is "wrong" meaning it will lead to problems in the future I'll usually consult project management and/or peers which is what you are doing here for advise. If ultimately we move ahead with their way, I just make sure its documented. An email recapping the conversation is usually enough. I'll often ask them for a response so I have a record they've seen it.

1000x yes on the prototype. I did that for the leg design on my parents table which we used to check knee clearance as well as the work out the overall design. The final design is basically nothing like any of us envisioned and we are all really happy it came out that way.

[David Winer]

Larry, I can't help but offer recommendations about size for a dining room table in the range you are considering. My table has served extremely well on many occasions for seating six adults comfortably. Its length is one inch shy of seven feet, and the ends overhang at sixteen inches. I made this table in the early seventies and don't remember the process by which I arrived at dimensions. But being fairly new at woodworking I must have done some research before deciding what dimensions would work.

I have never given the overhang much thought in all these years, but having sat at the end thousands of times I am glad to say sixteen inches is perfectly adequate and that I would not recommend a shorter distance. (I had to clear the table of bricabrac to make a picture for this post.)

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[G Douglas Fowler]

Not to belabor the point but the overhang may be a factor of how much room is available in the area where the table will be used. If the area can only accommodate a 72" table and needs to sit 6 then the amount of overhang is pretty much defined by the trestle base dimensions. If the area can accept a longer footprint hen I think you have an opportunity to suggest design "tweaks" to insure user comfort.

[J.R. Rutter]

Tough one Larry. I say mention it, propose small increase in length and/or radius on the ends, and build what she wants. Get the final plans signed off by her. I have done lots of what I consider to be ugly cabinet doors, but the buyers see it differently.

[Jim Foster]

I pulled out a book on interior design I used to design several pieces of furniture in my house. (Anatomy for Interior Designers)

For dining;

Comfortable space for a person (width) 24 Inches is considered the avg space for diners. 26" is better, for arm chairs 28" is recommended. 19" is recommended for the end for people to do the things they do at a table when eating, although depending on how wide the table is, I suspect this dimension can vary.

For a 6' table that should sit six people comfortably, the trestles can be 48" to 56" apart. Because the table is only 6' long, I'd suggest the minimum workable distance between the trestles. I'd also suggest to the customer that arm chairs may not work well along the table, but will be fine at the ends.

I also think you customer being an architect is aware of these principles for good interior design, and it would be interesting to know the challenges she is having in the room/space that is dictating her thoughts on this.

[Stephen Cherry]

It seems to me that this all boils down to about a 2 inch window on each end- whether the trestles should be 12 or 14 inches from the end. For a 6 foot table, there are not a lot of options.

[Larry Edgerton]

Didn't show up, didn't call? They have four kids, who knows?

I appreciate all of the comments,, mostly confirmed how I felt on the subject.

Larry

[Mark Bolton]

Thats alway a bummer. Hopefully something came up.